PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[The Gronk]

Thanks for the question instead of the freak out or the accusation of poor thinking and planning. This is only the first iteration. I’m sure specific cases will be looked at once A17e is released. Faatal can give details of course. I can say that chickens, rabbits, dogs, and crawlers moving through single block holes is the least of your worries with A17. The net effect even if this change is permanent is a huge leap forward into danger rather than a step backwards. I would take all the new benefits of the pathing system at the cost of 1x1 entity movement in a second.
But I do know that what we are getting is not final version so people should stop treating it as such. You all know spiders no longer climb vertical surfaces in this first version of the pathing system right?

I kind of figured spiders would be unfixed, didn't realize their ability to climb had been stripped entirely.

I tried to get the pathing system updated to something a little more... 21st century... when it was first announced. At this point I'm having a quiet giggle to myself knowing the absolute pain fataal's going to have modifying A* into something suitable for the requirements of this game.

 

[CplCritter]

I brought up the idea a while back of adding new horde events being triggered by loud noises (falling a building, exploding landmines, etc.) and it seemed to get some positive attention/feedback. Just curious, did this idea or some variation of it get some love in A17? Thanks!

 

[PurgatoryWolf]

The Bus was an image Mole shared quite some time ago as a new added thing for a trader post he was working on, iirc.

We won't be driving it, I'm 99.9% sure on that,

 

[ItsHORDEnotHOARD]

???? No me comprende. I'm sorry, could you explain your joke? Or at least that "They are on 6 currently".

I think he means the series is on the 6th game. "Civilization VI". Which is the only one I haven't played. I believe the best was Civ IV

 

[Gazz]

The magic school bus is fueled by magic shrooms.

 

[faatal]

Crawlers can do it as well but they tend to get stuck worse than the dogs and try to attack you from half-way through the hole.

A crawler never made it through any hole in my tests.

 

[69WithAzombie]

I hope we get that Bus and also the new traders that use the bus as a wall in one of those concept photo's. Would be nice have a little more to fill up the world, we find so much of the same stuff.

 

[Zilla]

Sure. Zeds and rabbits (because) now come with their own mini dumpster fire attached to their back, which they then throw at whatever, whenever it suits their fancy. Due to the complexity or not of this system and our indecision on the exact temperature of the fire, the game may be delayed until 3019, but it probably won't due to the team of leprechaun polar bear ninj..............................

Please add random generated dumpster fires!

 

[The Gronk]

A crawler never made it through any hole in my tests.

Might be a bug in A16 with the change in collision boxes that occurred between A15 and A16 but they most certainly could at one point, that was largely the point of crawlers.

Sometime around A12-A14 when we were having a "discussion" about 1 block ingress for players the unfairness of crawlers making it through a single block hole when the player could not was the subject of heated debate.

 

[MidnightRook]

I think he means the series is on the 6th game. "Civilization VI". Which is the only one I haven't played. I believe the best was Civ IV

AMEN! to that! 5 and 6, I can confirm are hot loads of garbage. Sad part is I LIKE the actual system they have well enough. But the abandoned their player base and were trying to make CIV VI primarily and E-SPORT type game...which boggles the mind. Its like trying to make chess a full contact sport. They put little to NO time into making decent AI...in fact the only difference in difficulty levels is NOT that they play smarter at all...they simply cheat more, and get more advantages. I play a lot of single player CIV, and with 5 and 6 units dont tend to stack on the same tile and it makes maneuvering very complex in tight spaces. Even when not considering that they might be fighting against other units, the AI is not good about simple movement. As they make the game more complex with the extra DLCs its bad AI shows even further because at its core...it can't play the game. Going to war with them, you smash a base level of units up front and they never recover...just walk staight over them...and the only way to compensate is to give them cheats...so you cant even make a strategy based on the rules of the game because it will constantly not hold itself to those rules. Frustrating as hell...4 with Realism Invictus mod has largely been my favorite on all fronts...sorry for the ramble.

But I am curious to know what TFP will be doing with AI and its complexities. The industry standard right now across the board it seems for AI is make the entities cheat or not follow the rules you are in the understanding of them suppose to be having.

For instance...a game like 7dtd pretty much, and understandably so, creates zombies in your presence. For the most part it feels immersive enough, I enter a house and see zombies, sleepers etc...it feels like it was there all by intent, waiting for me, for however long it took me, or someone else to get there. The 7th day blood moon horde I understand and accept as a mechanic, I know zombies are spawning nearby and charging, but the whole feel of the event doesn't seem immersion breaking...based on this worlds mechanics.

So...sleepers...check...7th day horde...check....the issue for me right now...is the herds. They spawn, on you pretty much. Wherever you are. I would really feel that if I came across a herd...that would be because the game tracked where that herd was, and I happened upon it because I happen to cross its legitimate path. I know it can't render them at all times...hell...my ideal concept would be the game keeps track of where the zombies are and moves them around...gathering together in search of food...getting bigger and bigger. Only rendering them when they are in actual sight...but this could provide very immersive game play. Especially if you can set noise traps to lure herds away from your base..or point them at an enemy player or AI bandit bases. Plus, if you had a system that ran like this...thinning out zombies in your area WOULD have a purpose and would be worth while. After all, you don't want them getting too thick to deal with.

Not knowing the engine or its limitations however means this is literally just thinking out loud and I have no idea if anything like that is planned or discussed. I am hoping that the current zombie herd is just a temporary design. Sorry to confuse. I am sure that the Blood moon horde could use help too...but those wandering herds are not something I am a big fan of...but I deal anyway. My 2 cents, but I am curious to know if anyone felt the same.

 

[Space4Ace]

The magic school bus is fueled by magic shrooms.

 

[Crater Creator]

I view this as two related concepts: enemy behaviors, and enemy classes. We are used to behaviors defining classes. Vultures fly, cops spit, spiders climb, screamers scream, etc.

We know Alpha 17 is a giant leap forward where AI is concerned, and it adds at least one new behavior in digging. But my hope is behaviors will still be assigned selectively to create different classes of enemies. That way, I can focus on certain enemies that pose a greater threat to my base's particulars. For instance, if I'm on an open air stilt base with overhangs to block spiders, vultures are relatively more dangerous than most anything else, so I want to prioritize them.

I find that level of tactics very fun. It's kind of what tower defense is all about.

From this perspective, it will be disappointing to lose crawling and climbing as enemy behaviors, and crawlers and spiders as enemy classes. I don't doubt surviving the hordes will be more challenging than ever. But I'd lament steps towards greater homogenization, because it reduces the part of gameplay where a horde of x requires a different tactical response than a horde of y.

Similarly, I would prefer that a base that hasn't been made resistant to digging is vulnerable to diggers, rather than being equally vulnerable to all types of zombies.

 

[Space4Ace]

snip

It's Hordes, not Hoards, or Herds! (I said it before the other guy!) Kidding!

 

[MidnightRook]

I view this as two related concepts: enemy behaviors, and enemy classes. We are used to behaviors defining classes. Vultures fly, cops spit, spiders climb, screamers scream, etc.
We know Alpha 17 is a giant leap forward where AI is concerned, and it adds at least one new behavior in digging. But my hope is behaviors will still be assigned selectively to create different classes of enemies. That way, I can focus on certain enemies that pose a greater threat to my base's particulars. For instance, if I'm on an open air stilt base with overhangs to block spiders, vultures are relatively more dangerous than most anything else, so I want to prioritize them.

I find that level of tactics very fun. It's kind of what tower defense is all about.

From this perspective, it will be disappointing to lose crawling and climbing as enemy behaviors, and crawlers and spiders as enemy classes. I don't doubt surviving the hordes will be more challenging than ever. But I'd lament steps towards greater homogenization, because it reduces the part of gameplay where a horde of x requires a different tactical response than a horde of y.

Similarly, I would prefer that a base that hasn't been made resistant to digging is vulnerable to diggers, rather than being equally vulnerable to all types of zombies.

I am in agreement on that. But I do feel like there should be a number of generics in the mix as well. Steady predictable threat that will usually be ignored by priority standards until you notice that they have surrounded you and/or cornered you. Think like pawns in a game of chess...highly underestimated due to some basic limitations they have but a chess master cannot be without a good strategy for her pawns.

I also think that zombie Groups or Units should be things. Pods that are full of 3 basic shamblers and four other slots that can be randomized or even pre-built as well. You could have units that are going to good at different tasks based on what build it has. Options being nigh on limitless with that approach...and if the group or unit, worked with an actual linked AI so that, not just the zombies working individually to mess you up, but they use their abilities in conjunction with each other. Having the AI know what sort of combos they can utilize to accomplish things can make units and/or groups like that even more lethal.

We could take that a step further even and have "hive mind" style zombies (lol if aliens made them it would make more sense I guess, who knows lol) These hive minds can organize/assess and assign tasks to zombies in its group...killing the hive mind means they revert back to individual basic function making them significantly less dangerous. These kind of AI would work well for bandits too. Having leaders that assign tasks for gathering resources, attacking or robbing people, etc etc. I've worked with a lot of pseudo AI construction before and it is one of the most complicated things there is so far as game making. Most of the worlds top notch AI programmers (for games, real world AI is a total dif. story) are owned by Valve or Zenimax. Not to say they have a total lock out on them. Just another 2 cents.

 

[wildaxeman1]

I view this as two related concepts: enemy behaviors, and enemy classes. We are used to behaviors defining classes. Vultures fly, cops spit, spiders climb, screamers scream, etc.

i kinda agree with that. not all z-s do the same thing. then different biomes can be different types of zombies. like snow has lumberjack. it could be exelent wall destroyer, so you need stronger walls, but no need of roof, since no vultures around. etc etc

would be nice to have climbers back too at some point

 

[MidnightRook]

It's Hordes, not Hoards, or Herds! (I said it before the other guy!) Kidding!

Ha, yeah, yeah...I know I know...I went and spelled it different ways. I am aware of the proper spelling, I honestly can't explain why my muscle memory wants to say Hoards. But for me it IS called herds. My friends/family delineate between the 7th day hordes and the spawned wandering "herds". Named so, because my ultimate hope is that they will behave more like a wandering herd which would function differently from the spawn and charge hordes that the blood moon calls on you. Hordes=7th day or otherwise predictable events of a black friday for zombies and Herds= the wandering pack that right now will spawn on you and pretend that they came by you naturually.

 

[xEnt]

hey faatal i found some valuable information about performance.

running ryzen 7, 1080ti. i been playing around with all the graphics settings trying to find something that works well. I found the main issue that seems to impact performance. I use 2560x1440 and all settings high, only getting 30-50 fps. after slightly lowering each setting to find whats giving me the most improvement, it seems dropping tree quality from high/ultra down to medium gives me a ♥♥♥♥ ton, like i can max everything but keep tree quality on medium and have 90+ fps.

you guys should look at something chewing up performance when using high quality trees, thanks!

 

[MidnightRook]

hey faatal i found some valuable information about performance.
running ryzen 7, 1080ti. i been playing around with all the graphics settings trying to find something that works well. I found the main issue that seems to impact performance. I use 2560x1440 and all settings high, only getting 30-50 fps. after slightly lowering each setting to find whats giving me the most improvement, it seems dropping tree quality from high/ultra down to medium gives me a ♥♥♥♥ ton, like i can max everything but keep tree quality on medium and have 90+ fps.

you guys should look at something chewing up performance when using high quality trees, thanks!

I blame the trees for that. All those leaves and pine needls being so smug.

 

[Crater Creator]

I am in agreement on that. But I do feel like there should be a number of generics in the mix as well. Steady predictable threat that will usually be ignored by priority standards until you notice that they have surrounded you and/or cornered you. Think like pawns in a game of chess...highly underestimated due to some basic limitations they have but a chess master cannot be without a good strategy for her pawns.

Good point, and pawns are a perfect analogy. I guess I should add I'm also for lots of variation among individual zombies. Like, a digger zombie can look like Arlene or Bo or anyone, but you can tell they're a digger because all diggers wear mining helmets. That would be gamey, but you get the idea.

I also think that zombie Groups or Units should be things. Pods that are full of 3 basic shamblers and four other slots that can be randomized or even pre-built as well. You could have units that are going to good at different tasks based on what build it has. Options being nigh on limitless with that approach...and if the group or unit, worked with an actual linked AI so that, not just the zombies working individually to mess you up, but they use their abilities in conjunction with each other. Having the AI know what sort of combos they can utilize to accomplish things can make units and/or groups like that even more lethal.
We could take that a step further even and have "hive mind" style zombies (lol if aliens made them it would make more sense I guess, who knows lol) These hive minds can organize/assess and assign tasks to zombies in its group...killing the hive mind means they revert back to individual basic function making them significantly less dangerous. These kind of AI would work well for bandits too. Having leaders that assign tasks for gathering resources, attacking or robbing people, etc etc.

Indeed, I'd especially keep this idea in mind when designing bandits.

I've worked with a lot of pseudo AI construction before and it is one of the most complicated things there is so far as game making. Most of the worlds top notch AI programmers (for games, real world AI is a total dif. story) are owned by Valve or Zenimax. Not to say they have a total lock out on them. Just another 2 cents.

Hopefully employed by rather than "owned."

 

[hawk949]

At what resolution?
My friend had a similar issue - he had a plenty powerful system but frame rate would often be as low as 10 and go up to as high as 100+.

Later discovered that in power settings on his computer the "balanced" profile was being used - after setting it to "high performance" (which forces CPU to run at max all the time) he had a normal frame rate.

Maybe check if your power profile is set to balanced as well.

Something with recent windows update made a similar problem for me and throttle everything:video/internet/fps. Clean windows installation: same. Changed SATA cable / changed power settings to high performence / got another windows update while doing so and after those 3 PC ran well again.Guess it was power settings all along that i haven't changed for a year since i got win10 to begin with but MC just came out with the "delete your files" update so this isn't that surprising anymore