PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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Personally i loving the idea of zombies rarely having any loot, now I wont fill up while looting a building, it will save so much time, madmoles gameplay showed me how awesome this is going to be, i cant wait for it to drop.

 
I said it before, if I just got one treasure map and that was my only reward for an entire blood moon horde, that'd be a really good reward imo, and it would be realistic and fall into line with the idea that zombies wouldn't be carrying a bunch of logical loot.

Right like how cool would that be, you eliminate an entire horde, and there it is: a treasure map. Now the horde is dead and your base is in shambles and it's time for a freaking adventure. You go get your shovel and make the trek out and dig up loot that's roughly equivalent to what you lost in the mayhem, maybe a little less or a little more, but it feels good. It's a perfect amount of effort and reward, and it's fun at the same time.

 
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In a sandbox game, yes, I expect a predictably reliable cycle of risk and reward. Big risks give big rewards, little risks give little rewards, no risk gives no reward. Good gameplay mechanics. Not an apocalypse simulator. Nobody would play a real apocalypse simulator, it'd suck too much. All punishment, no reward for literal generations, lots of reading and research. It would be pretty awful, even without zombies.
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woke up an hour or 2 ago, these posts are a bit late after most resolution.

you'd be surprised. some people will play any simulator.

as to risk v's reward and genre.

in a survival based game I expect a slowly diminished return on rewards. after all, who is making the new loots that is always being found? who keeps restocking? I am a sp player, and I turn loot respawn off. Traders I can deal with, after all there are a few other survivors out there. but using money? I just cant figure a better barter system for now. so some form of currency is needed.

thing is, until the npc's come out and are entered into the game. the only reliable source of goods I can see is the player base, be it solo or mp. That takes some time and effort, hence diminished returns. you are gonna use more to survive than you can craft alone or even with a small group. It would take a settlement to actually break the diminished returns aspect. and we cant do that for another 2-3 alphas or so it seems.

 
hey roland

when placing a torch and picking it back up, does it go straight into tool belt where it was? its a pain having to go into inventory and put it in the tool belt each time you pick it up again. of course only a pain if you have only one but still, was hoping it was the same as repaired items.

cheers

 
woke up an hour or 2 ago, these posts are a bit late after most resolution.
you'd be surprised. some people will play any simulator.

as to risk v's reward and genre.

in a survival based game I expect a slowly diminished return on rewards. after all, who is making the new loots that is always being found? who keeps restocking? I am a sp player, and I turn loot respawn off. Traders I can deal with, after all there are a few other survivors out there. but using money? I just cant figure a better barter system for now. so some form of currency is needed.

thing is, until the npc's come out and are entered into the game. the only reliable source of goods I can see is the player base, be it solo or mp. That takes some time and effort, hence diminished returns. you are gonna use more to survive than you can craft alone or even with a small group. It would take a settlement to actually break the diminished returns aspect. and we cant do that for another 2-3 alphas or so it seems.
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I like the way you think, though they are making a game that caters to a wide variety of players. There's SP, there's MP coop, there are private servers, there are really big servers with dozens of simultaneous players, there's PvP. How do you build a system that's a good compromise for all these different playstyles? Mostly they've made the game really easy to mod. In general diminishing returns is a good concept, but endgame suffers in that regard.

Right now they have it set up where hordes get progressively more difficult, so you're going to need turrets chewing though hundreds if not thousands of rounds on a 7th night. How do you go about regenerating that ammunition? With diminishing returns or no loot respawn, eventually you'd be trying to fend off 100 feral cops with a giant field of wooden spikes and a wooden club. Also in a MP setting - especially a high population server - the entire server would suffer from diminishing returns. New players would find no loot, which would mean that they would just quit and find another server. What happens on a mass scale then is that basically everyone would end up playing on their own server. But then people looking for a multiplayer experience will get bored because they've taken all the loot and no new players want to come breathe life into their server (or rather, they can't) so the server just dies and has to be wiped to incentivize new players to come play again. There would be a short competition for resources, everything would get looted and the cycle would resume.

Anyway there are strong benefits to having infinite income (and an infinite way to dispose of said infinite income, infinitely) from both zombies and cities, not from a realistic standpoint but from an MMO standpoint.

 
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This discussion is already over because we have Roland's confirmation that 7th night loot tables differ from regular zombie loot tables, but I'll still entertain your post by quoting my other posts regarding the subject, just so you can understand my perspective:
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At the risk of getting you all wound up again.....Roland said

"Horde night has it's own set of rules and they can make loot drops rare (as they are) for everyday zeds but common for bloodmoon zeds."

As in it is possible, not that they have already done so.

*ducks and runs for cover*

 
At the risk of getting you all wound up again.....Roland said
"Horde night has it's own set of rules and they can make loot drops rare (as they are) for everyday zeds but common for bloodmoon zeds."

As in it is possible, not that they have already done so.

*ducks and runs for cover*
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I'm pretty happy with the implication that blood moon can be distinctly tweaked from regular zombie loot. I'll voice my opinion again later if it sucks lmao

 
I like the way you think, though they are making a game that caters to a wide variety of players. There's SP, there's MP coop, there are private servers, there are really big servers with dozens of simultaneous players, there's PvP. How do you build a system that's a good compromise for all these different playstyles? Mostly they've made the game really easy to mod. In general diminishing returns is a good concept, but endgame suffers in that regard. * space*

Anyway there are strong benefits to having infinite income (and an infinite way to dispose of said infinite income, infinitely) from both zombies and cities, not from a realistic standpoint but from an MMO standpoint.
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I eventually expect to die I do a hardcore death is death type. but I am going by the world in game as it stands. eventually, they will have more aspects fleshed out and when the story and npc's finally arrive, my style will evolve with it the next few iterations may have it that diminished returns is no longer realistic with small settlements dotting the game countryside.

now as to diminished returns on mp servers. loot respawn would have to stay on of course. but I have joined many servers, still find nothing because they are already picked clean, so what would be the difference? stay alive with no loot until it respawns? players leave instead of the wait. you know and have had to have seen this. and yes, in an MMO what you say is true, but this isn't an mmo. there is no real economy to be maintained the players getting rich doesnt destabalize the game as it does say eve online, wow, or GW2.

I have gotten well past day 150 and not really used guns. On horde nights, some evasion, mostly setting up traps which are cheap and can be infinite with seeds renewing the wood. then just making and using terrain to my advantage. this will change with the new ai. cant wait to see what will need to be done.

cant wait for the flame thrower or fire traps.

the one thing I wish we could simulate is a spotter. someone who could tell you a day or 2 ahead of time that a horde has been spotted in the <pick a direction> and will be here by the bloodmoon.

 
Well you can theorize all you want on the numbers that think that way to support your argument.
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That is exactly the opposite of what he did. He went out of his way to say that some of his opinions are probably more mainstream to the playerbase and some are probably almost unique to him. He not once tried to use a supposed number of people that think like him to support his argument. He stated how/why it would affect him.

And just to be clear. I disagree with most of what he thinks less loot will do to the game. In my opinion, the amount of loot is only important because death is, like in almost all games these days, completely meaningless. The negative consequences are so minor that it can be ignored and therefore the only thing left to worry about game wise is loot. That's why I play almost exclusively Dead is Dead. The only exception is if I do something stupid but am having too much fun at the moment and want to see how it goes. I don't think I have ever played a game that I didn't wipe after my 2nd death though. A survival game with no consequences from death just makes no sense to me so I play my way.

 
Love the graphics update, I usually don't notice shaders and lighting too often, but I really noticed it in the video.. I'm not excited about the health and stam bar, I feel like I'm in England trying to do the metric system. I'm super happy about the 30 min of non loot to pick up out of spikes/babred wire/ pit etc... Any chance that chrome shotgun can be a super weapon, I really like the look of it, even though MM seemed embarrassed, I think you may have stumbled on epic weapons :)

 
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nope, still blind. eliminating the loots does not prohibit the highlighted text. so does not block what you say you wanted to do.
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Oh, good lord. Of course he could. He has explained IN GREAT DETAIL that this is an issue with the way he plays and his mindset in playing a game. And that is perfectly valid. "They could leave the loot as it was and everyone that hates loot on zombies could just not loot them." See how that sounds turned around the other way?

His description of games and risk vs reward are spot on and this is coming from someone that thinks the lower loot volume is going to have a good, or at least completely neutral, effect on my playstyle. But, just because I disagree with with his play style doesn't mean I can't see his point of view. If that was my preferred way to play, I would be upset with the change as well. I don't like loot to be the reward for a survival game so I play Dead is Dead. He likes the risk/reward and trader game and this will definitely affect his play style more than mine.

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This discussion is already over because we have Roland's confirmation that 7th night loot tables differ from regular zombie loot tables, but I'll still entertain your post by quoting my other posts regarding the subject, just so you can understand my perspective:
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Yeah, you may want to re-read Roland's post. He said that Horde Night has different rules so it is possible to have different loot tables. He didn't say that is the way they have decided to go.

 
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Yeah, you may want to re-read Roland's post. He said that Horde Night has different rules so it is possible to have different loot tables. He didn't say that is the way they have decided to go.
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yes, but he can mod this to his liking. so his play style will still be viable

edit: spelling

 
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I didn't claim that everyone thinks like me. Some people think like me. Some of my thoughts and methods are more common than others. Some might be held by the majority of players. Some might be totally alien to those same players. I'm not so self-centered to be blind to that. But this game has been a crafting, building, castle-defense style design since its inception, and removing zombie loot appears to (but does not definitely) topple that whole core design. As soon as you say "btw zombies don't drop loot anymore" you completely change such a fundamental aspect of the entire game's history. Change is not inherently bad as long as the change results in fun, but change does not always result in more fun. Space Engineers for example ruined their game by adding planets. Maybe that's just my opinion but to me that's the only opinion that matters. I've thoroughly made my case throughout this thread and I believe that the fate of the game for me and anyone who plays this game like I do rests in how much loot the zombies drop on horde nights. If they serve only as punishment, then almost all of what makes the game fun for me personally will be eliminated. If they compensate just enough to make the fun of a thrilling defense worthwhile and not a waste of time and resources, then the game will be as fun if more more fun than ever before. A lot of people build bases and a lot of people fight horde nights and if you make it so the player's most efficient course of action is to forego building a base and just run and hide from hordes, you will eliminate the fun for that entire group. I think it's safe to claim that that's at least half of all 7 Days players.
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I am so sorry Eidobunny, I really do understand what you are saying and it really makes sense...and I have tried to explain it to others, but for some reason there seems to be a lot of anger and reaction-ism happening toward you. The point is I can totally see the point from both sides just fine, and I don't feel that what everyone is saying is mutually exclusive of each other. I can see there IS room for middle ground but so many people are going to extremes. Many people need a hug.

 
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