PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Wolf959]

So, I know everyone is talking about loot, but something else that i kinda wished was fixed by now is how zombies spawn.

MM went into the same building like 4 times and backed out of the POI to fight the zombie he met in there. when he returned not five minutes, there was another zombie back in the EXACT place. It happened EVERY time he went in. This is something i noticed back in A16. Zs would spawn in a place you had been through WHILE you were looting it.

It seems like the kind of bug that wouldn't necessarily have to be fixed by A17, but i really feel like it needs to be changed sometime. It breaks immersion and makes the first of the game especially hard because it's not technically possible to clear a POI.

Maybe a possible fix would be to make it so that zombies couldn't spawn if you're within like 30 meters of the spawn point? I don't know how that would effect other things. Maybe there could be some sort of timer on Zombie spawn points so that you have, say, 30 min to clear a house before zombies start re-spawning?

 

[Swiftpaw]

YAY MM gameplay DONE!

Now hurry up with those spider memes!!!!

lol

Wonder how whatever major issue(s) are coming along and how close those are to resolution now. :3

 

[Jimmy_James]

So, I know everyone is talking about loot, but something else that i kinda wished was fixed by now is how zombies spawn.
MM went into the same building like 4 times and backed out of the POI to fight the zombie he met in there. when he returned not five minutes, there was another zombie back in the EXACT place. It happened EVERY time he went in. This is something i noticed back in A16. Zs would spawn in a place you had been through WHILE you were looting it.

It seems like the kind of bug that wouldn't necessarily have to be fixed by A17, but i really feel like it needs to be changed sometime. It breaks immersion and makes the first of the game especially hard because it's not technically possible to clear a POI.

Maybe a possible fix would be to make it so that zombies couldn't spawn if you're within like 30 meters of the spawn point? I don't know how that would effect other things. Maybe there could be some sort of timer on Zombie spawn points so that you have, say, 30 min to clear a house before zombies start re-spawning?

I think it’s still a bug that was fixed before MM video and now they will take a closer look at it.

(I think I read it somewhere)

It’s the most game braking thing for me in the last builds.

 

[eidobunny]

You last line is what I'm referring to. Basically everyone thinks like you and if you don't like it the game is doomed.
Pinnate zombies are a thing of the past (now if they would do the same for the Pinnate boulders). If you you don't like it mod it/wait for it to be modded or set loot to 200%.

Basically the game is taking a step towards survival and zeds aren't something you seek out bacause they are loots bags, there are now the unwelcome antagonist they were menat to be.

I didn't claim that everyone thinks like me. Some people think like me. Some of my thoughts and methods are more common than others. Some might be held by the majority of players. Some might be totally alien to those same players. I'm not so self-centered to be blind to that. But this game has been a crafting, building, castle-defense style design since its inception, and removing zombie loot appears to (but does not definitely) topple that whole core design. As soon as you say "btw zombies don't drop loot anymore" you completely change such a fundamental aspect of the entire game's history. Change is not inherently bad as long as the change results in fun, but change does not always result in more fun. Space Engineers for example ruined their game by adding planets. Maybe that's just my opinion but to me that's the only opinion that matters. I've thoroughly made my case throughout this thread and I believe that the fate of the game for me and anyone who plays this game like I do rests in how much loot the zombies drop on horde nights. If they serve only as punishment, then almost all of what makes the game fun for me personally will be eliminated. If they compensate just enough to make the fun of a thrilling defense worthwhile and not a waste of time and resources, then the game will be as fun if more more fun than ever before. A lot of people build bases and a lot of people fight horde nights and if you make it so the player's most efficient course of action is to forego building a base and just run and hide from hordes, you will eliminate the fun for that entire group. I think it's safe to claim that that's at least half of all 7 Days players.

 

[akram22]

I didn't claim that everyone thinks like me. Some people think like me. Some of my thoughts and methods are more common than others. Some might be held by the majority of players. Some might be totally alien to those same players. I'm not so self-centered to be blind to that. But this game has been a crafting, building, castle-defense style design since its inception, and removing zombie loot appears to (but does not definitely) topple that whole core design. As soon as you say "btw zombies don't drop loot anymore" you completely change such a fundamental aspect of the entire game's history. Change is not inherently bad as long as the change results in fun, but change does not always result in more fun. Space Engineers for example ruined their game by adding planets. Maybe that's just my opinion but to me that's the only opinion that matters. I've thoroughly made my case throughout this thread and I believe that the fate of the game for me and anyone who plays this game like I do rests in how much loot the zombies drop on horde nights. If they serve only as punishment, then almost all of what makes the game fun for me personally will be eliminated. If they compensate just enough to make the fun of a thrilling defense worthwhile and not a waste of time and resources, then the game will be as fun if more more fun than ever before. A lot of people build bases and a lot of people fight horde nights and if you make it so the player's most efficient course of action is to forego building a base and just run and hide from hordes, you will eliminate the fun for that entire group. I think it's safe to claim that that's at least half of all 7 Days players.

*spoiler* phat loot at day 35

 

[Jimmy_James]

Is loot configuration still a thing in the options?

I mean: I put that at 25% for our server and people who are afraid because of to less loot put that on 200%.

Am I wrong?

 

[Dauthiatull]

could you please move the creepy orchestral sounds from ambiant sounds to music sounds.

I like the sounds of owls crickets and such but the creepy music that comes with the ambiant sounds is annoying and often overpowers the sounds Im trying to hear like nearby zeds/animals

 

[Erik Louden]

I didn't claim that everyone thinks like me. Some people think like me. Some of my thoughts and methods are more common than others. Some might be held by the majority of players. Some might be totally alien to those same players. I'm not so self-centered to be blind to that. But this game has been a crafting, building, castle-defense style design since its inception, and removing zombie loot appears to (but does not definitely) topple that whole core design. As soon as you say "btw zombies don't drop loot anymore" you completely change such a fundamental aspect of the entire game's history. Change is not inherently bad as long as the change results in fun, but change does not always result in more fun. Space Engineers for example ruined their game by adding planets. Maybe that's just my opinion but to me that's the only opinion that matters. I've thoroughly made my case throughout this thread and I believe that the fate of the game for me and anyone who plays this game like I do rests in how much loot the zombies drop on horde nights. If they serve only as punishment, then almost all of what makes the game fun for me personally will be eliminated. If they compensate just enough to make the fun of a thrilling defense worthwhile and not a waste of time and resources, then the game will be as fun if more more fun than ever before. A lot of people build bases and a lot of people fight horde nights and if you make it so the player's most efficient course of action is to forego building a base and just run and hide from hordes, you will eliminate the fun for that entire group. I think it's safe to claim that that's at least half of all 7 Days players.

Well you can theorize all you want on the numbers that think that way to support your argument.

I'll give you an opposing one, there is too much loot in the world and I spend to much time looting and skinning zombies, I'm sick of it. I want to spend more time searching POI's. I want every loot find mean something because I'm not swimming in loot.

Pinnate zombies = easy mode and the game is easy enough as it is.

 

[Star69]

Loved the video! Only complaint on the looting issue is I’m going to be very mad about not getting my singles back after killing a zombie stripper! Always made me chuckle lol.

 

[cnconrad]

Your last line is what I'm referring to. Basically everyone thinks like you and if you don't like it the game is doomed.
Pinnate zombies are a thing of the past (now if they would do the same for the Pinnate boulders). If you you don't like it mod it/wait for it to be modded or set loot to 200%.

Basically the game is taking a step towards survival and zeds aren't something you seek out bacause they are loots bags, there are now the unwelcome antagonist they were menat to be.

If that's the case, I likely won't play much more. I have played for 400+ hours and have loved the game. Precisely because it's not some crappy dime a dozen survival game. It is a fun game. They did this once with mining and pulled a complete 180 because it simply was not fun. They did this once with poi's I have been around long enough to remember when madmole thought there were way to many poi's in nazgane and that it should be a treat to find a single house per half hour of play.

Once you have been around as long as some of us you realize that TFP's often come up with ideas that sound good in a office meeting but fall completely flat and are just completely scrapped.

If this is turned into just another survival game I'll move on. No harm no foul, for the past several years they have nearly made just the game I wanted. If the go in a different direction more power to them.

I play this because it's a fun coop game where I can kill lots of zombies with my wife and nephew and build a big fancy base.

Take that away and it's not the game I love so I will move on.

Not being dramatic and saying this change will make that happen. But if I am punished for playing the way I like I simply won't play. No big deal.

 

[Kalex]

What does that tweet even mean.
They don't drop loot!

They do drop loot!

Nothing specific about loot %, loot numbers, loot variety.

So far dissapointed with the video and the still existing bugs. Graphics changes - textures- are noticable on fences and bricks. But the rest doesn't jump in my sight too much.

Not hard to figure out. The first line is what all the whiners are saying and the rest is MM calling B.S. on it.

 

[eidobunny]

And I’m trying to figure out why that will be changing with not so much loot.

I'm trying to figure out why this isn't obvious to everyone else, but I'll take the time to explain my perspective again.

In A16, you can choose to fight the hordes or you can choose to hide/run. If you fight, you have to invest time and resources into a base, and that base will sustain damage. You have to invest time and resources into collecting weapons and ammunition and you will expend a certain amount of it to overcome the night. After the night is over, you are rewarded for a successful defense (or even an unsuccessful defense) with the loot on all the zombies that died in the carnage. It's a great balance of motivation, risks, and rewards. If you hide/run, you stand no chance of getting any reward, but you also don't lose any of your investments. A valid strategy. In fact, both strategies are about equal. Fighting is a (positive) and a (negative) resulting in a (neutral) state of affairs. Running/hiding has no pros or cons, which also results in a (neutral) state of affairs.

Assuming (big assumption) that you get little to no loot in A17, you can still choose to fight or to hide/run. Except this time, if you fight there is no reward. Everything is a con. You will lose time and resources invested into building your base, you will lose consumables expended to defend it, and you don't get anything in return. But if you run/hide you suffer no consequences. So your choices basically are you fight which results in a (negative) state of affairs, or you run/hide which results in a (neutral) state of affairs. Obviously if given these two choices, I'm always going to choose (neutral) over (negative).

But the issue is that I WANT to build a base, and I WANT to fight 7th night hordes. And yes, I can still do those things, but I'm sitting here thinking, man it would be a heck of a lot wiser to just... hop on a minibike and ride all night. I don't want to do that. Because of the developer's decision to make running and hiding a more attractive option in terms of pros/cons, an imbalance has occurred that directly affects my enjoyment of the game. Either I run/hide and feel like I made the correct decision, or I fight under constant regret.

Again I understand that not everyone has my point of view. Not everyone plays like me. They've made changes that have negatively affected me in the past and changes that have positively affected me in the past. It's their game they can do what they want. But damnit if I can't sit here and say "hey, just so you know this change is going to ruin the fun for everyone like me"

 

[Jimmy_James]

The first thing we (our server dudes) do after horde night and cleaning up the mess is to take all that junk and drive to the trader to sell it.

(I don’t know if it was a mod or vanilla)

 

[trielkee]

Now, what I'm hoping for is that we do get a reasonable amount of compensation. Like if you have a really good base I'd like to see somewhere between a 75% and a 200% compensation for your losses, on average. If I get a 0-25% compensation I'm just not going to bother building or defended a base.

The only way you'll get a 200% compensation is if you settle by the sea, build a harbour, and the blood moon horde arrives on a cruise ship, carrying gold and diamond nuggets in their pockets. Even then, when you take into account the effort it takes you to build the harbour, and the entry fee for every zed, I don't think you'd get the return you hope for.

But seriously, this is a zombie survival game, not a zombie tycoon game.

 

[akram22]

could you please move the creepy orchestral sounds from ambiant sounds to music sounds. I like the sounds of owls crickets and such but the creepy music that comes with the ambiant sounds is annoying and often overpowers the sounds Im trying to hear like nearby zeds/animals

too late mate we are almost there , you have to wait A18 , moowaaaaah wooow ,

 

[eidobunny]

Well you can theorize all you want on the numbers that think that way to support your argument.
I'll give you an opposing one, there is too much loot in the world and I spend to much time looting and skinning zombies, I'm sick of it. I want to spend more time searching POI's. I want every loot find mean something because I'm not swimming in loot.

Pinnate zombies = easy mode and the game is easy enough as it is.

Listen, I never said taking zombie loot out was a bad idea. But taking out the zombie loot specifically has an adverse effect on horde nights, because it is the only time where a huge mass of zombies is actively attacking /your/ base. If you are out looting a city who cares if the zombies drop loot, you're going for the gun safes and the bookshelves and all of that. That's where your rewards are. But if there are no rewards in the zombies, then horde nights fall apart at the seam. Why should I bother engaging a 7th night horde if it means only losses? And yet, I want to engage the horde night for fun, but that directly conflicts with my brain's desire to do the most efficient and intelligent action, which would be to just ride around on my minibike on horde nights. TFP has effectively caused my brain to have a civil war with itself whereas there was no question before on my course of action.

- - - Updated - - -

The first thing we (our server dudes) do after horde night and cleaning up the mess is to take all that junk and drive to the trader to sell it.(I don’t know if it was a mod or vanilla)

Exactly, it's a perfect compensation for the damages incurred during a blood moon. It feels good. The risk vs reward is enjoyable and it feels like you've accomplished something and are rewarded fairly for it.

- - - Updated - - -

The only way you'll get a 200% compensation is if you settle by the sea, build a harbour, and the blood moon horde arrives on a cruise ship, carrying gold and diamond nuggets in their pockets. Even then, when you take into account the effort it takes you to build the harbour, and the entry fee for every zed, I don't think you'd get the return you hope for.
But seriously, this is a zombie survival game, not a zombie tycoon game.

I routinely get 200% compensation or more in 16.4. Hell you can make a field of wooden spikes and get 50k dukes worth of stuff off the bodies which would be a huge compensation for your loss of a few thousand wood.

 

[Kalex]

Hey Roland, the spider meme has been put up, shouldn't the text be changed to green on it now?

 

[Roland]

edited to remove wrong quote. Was referencing your post on backpacks.


Not angry Roland, just continually disappointed at poor design decisions in a game I love and play a lot. Us old timers have seen this kind of stuff before from TFP, many many times, sometimes it even gets rolled back because the backlash is too great for even TFP to ignore.

You tried to provide a rational for a big nerf to support the devs, I get it, i do, neither of us is unbiased but one of us is open about it.

Just be yourself (as you often are) and be honest about stuff mate.

You read more angry than disappointed. Maybe you could add some sad looking emojis to all the posts where you are accusing the devs of lying, accusing them of being incompetent, mocking Madmole for how he plays, complaining about the production values of the video. Then maybe you'll seem disappointed rather than just mean-spirited and in the throws of PVP nerd rage. :sorrow:

Not sure where you get that I'm not being honest. I made my joke about what orifice people are yanking candlesticks out of but then when pressed I did make the point that people can create stories to find immersion in whatever they want. I've consistently said I was shocked and dismayed when I first found out a couple of months ago but then as I played I realized that there were benefits. The only defending I am doing is sharing my own experience of having played with it.

Does that mean I am going to say that it will be an awesome change for say..... PVP?

Heck no. Nail #13 in that particular coffin for sure... :rip:

 

[Roland]

Hey Roland, the spider meme has been put up, shouldn't the text be changed to green on it now?

Link me to it. I missed Laz's post.

BTW....it's not A spider meme. It is THE spider meme, posted by Laz Man, depicting a spider zombie sniffing a huge hunk of meat held by the player and saying that it smells like A17 with all previous alphas crossed off the list. It's pretty specific and cheap imitations won't do.

Neither will questionable sources. Gotta come from Laz.

 

[cnconrad]

And I’m trying to figure out why that will be changing with not so much loot.

Really really simple.

Let's simplify things for explaining.

Let's say I have a 100,000 duke base that took 5 full days to build this is the cost of building and upgrading defenses on my base.

Then let's say I spend 10,000 dukes and 2 full days making various ammo to defend my base.

Currently if we kill all the horde night zombies we get 30,000 or more dukes worth of resources and 1± days worth of gathering.

The zombies typically do 10,000 dukes worth of damage and 1 days worth or repairs.

Currently by killing and looting all the zombies on horde night I come out ahead. That means by end of day 15 I am better off than I was start of day 14.

Now with no loot, the costs will all still be the same but with no reward I will be worse off because I chose to defend my base.

This punishment for playing my way will lead me to just running to a random poi and camping there horde night and killing survivors the next morning. Which will cause me to lose interest.

The interesting thing was that madmole did not appear to enjoy himself this a 17 gameplay. It seemed like things were not playing how he thought they should.