PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Rusrec00]

I respectfully disagree with you on a few points Tea.

Here's the first place where I think we disagree. This is supposed to be a survival game, not a hunt the zombies for XP and loot game (at least by my understanding of the game - I believe it is a survival game where killing manageable numbers of zombies is part of the survival piece. This of course all goes to crap on day 7, hence the name..
So to my mind we shouldn't be being rewarded for killing zombies at all, other than the "reward" of still being alive. - The XP "reward" for killing Zs should definitely be part of the game. First, its combat experience gained. Second, you are "thinning the herd," which should be, at least in some part, the objective. I mean aren't supporting equal rights for zombies here. Regarding loot, I think it should be available to those who opt to kill zombies vice scavenging. But it should be appropriate to the entity i.e. construction workers dropping mining helmets, nurses dropping meds, etc.

Actually fighting zombies should be an activity of last resort, because you failed to avoid them and ended up putting yourself at risk. So I would suggest that you shouldn't be getting loot or XP from killing zombies because that perversely incentivises you to go after them when you should be hiding/fleeing from them. - I don't typically like hiding or fleeing, but I can concur that fighting is a failure to manage stealth. However, that's the combat piece of the game and if you do away with that you will lose ALOT of interest from players that don't just want a stealth building game. I have friends I play with and we all play the game differently, but our different playstyles benefit each other.

The loot and xp should be got from building and scavenging, - With all due respect, this point doesn't make sense considering you feel xp shouldn't be gained from killing zombies. If actual combat doesn't give xp, then why should placing boxes on the ground do so? and the zombies should be an obstacle to doing that. The only reason to fight a zombie other than in self defence should be because it's preventing you from building or scavenging - in which case the "reward" for killing it is that you get to do the activity that it was preventing you from doing. - Negative, ALL zombies must die.




There definitely needs to be some work done on the death-loop-until-morning problem. As I say above, I think getting to the point where you're actually fighting zombies should be a failure state rather than the aim of the game (whatever blend of tower defence, survival horror, sandbox, and rpg the game is it definitely isn't an fps!) but even so, part of the balance should be addressing what happens when you are forced into that situation. The death-loop-till-morning result is far from ideal. - I completely agree here, there MUST be a mechanic to deter this death loop on Zed night.

 

[Menace312]

Something?

Vultures are no longer completely retarded..Confirmed by Gazz!

Please try to keep up!!

Your welcome!!

Urgh, I missed that one...

Good news is good news!

 

[JaxTeller718]

Agreed. Unfortunately this is one of those area's where fun factor may trump realism once again. It would be an interesting mod to try and see whether getting zero xp and zero loot from zombies would make the game more or less of a fun and rewarding experience. It would certainly make bloodmoon horde nights something to truly dread rather than something to look forward to.

Funny you should say that

2nd Mod I am prepping for is EXACTLY that, no reward or loot, no xp. Just mass amounts of zeds. Traditional Walkers that overwhelm. Scavenger based. Coming soon to A17 (was quarter ways done before the 17 announcement so we put it on hold for now)

 

[faatal]

3 months? More like 3 seconds.
What happens now if I jump? If I can reach a ladder two rungs up now the result would be that nothing has changed at all.

Not that that would necessarily be bad.Changing it would just mean that everybody has to put down haybales all the time. So it doesn't get more difficult, just more tedious. Much better would be that zombies generally can't reach ladders like a player, but on occasion zombies can climb on other zombies (for example) and that way get to places they normally can't reach.

Yes, when you jump you can attach to the 3rd ladder block, but if your leg is broken, you can't jump that high.

Dropping from 2 meters won't break your leg, so don't need haybales for that height.

 

[faatal]

So if zombies are able to climb ladders now will they also destroy the hatch at the top of the ladder? Or the wood frame or whatever we set up there for safety’s sake?

Have not tested yet. It should not be too hard to do, since they can attack while moving and climbing a ladder is just them literally walking up the wall, since we have no climb anims yet.

 

[Moldy Bread]

I wouldn't mind knowing the devs response to this. https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?85002-Scary-Cities

 

[faatal]

@faatal any chance that zombies will be able to jump 2 or maybe 3 blocks gaps?

Would be nice someday. Have on my todo list, but presents more performance and memory issues to pathing system, so I'd rather wait and see that we are at a good place with A17 under heavy server load.

 

[faatal]

Fine. Every zombie now has all of the Mortal Kombat special abilities.

Haha. I did actually make image, animation and UI tools, which were used on various versions of MK.

 

[faatal]

The AI must be fairly bug free if Faatal is taking requests, it appears now is the time for requests fellas.
@faatal Status on climbing zombies being able to attack blocks directly over their heads?

Also have you given any consideration to the WWZ ability of zombies climbing on each others backs like ants to make zombie ladders? <--- This would be badass!

The reason I am asking for this ability is because currently if you build a base with a pit all the way around it the zombies just stand down there at the bottom like dummies because they don't know what to do.

How do you fix this? Well you can either give them the intelligence to start digging block stairs up out of the pit towards the player, or you give them the ability to climb on each other backs to form a zombie ladder, or both.

Also have you given any consideration to giving construction/lumberjack/biker/feral/wight zombies a bonus to breaking blocks?

Bug free? There are edge cases, but it works pretty well.

Climbing walls is not currently supported by the path system and doubt will be in A17. It may need to be a different path method to support that as the current grid system would be a fair bit slower and use a lot more memory creating path nodes up all walls.

They have a variety of other new ways to get to you, so I think those may be better replacements.

 

[Xeen]

Would be nice someday. Have on my todo list, but presents more performance and memory issues to pathing system, so I'd rather wait and see that we are at a good place with A17 under heavy server load.

@faatal I know you know this but sometimes it needs to be said out loud, that is what difficulty levels are for, you can scale in intelligence, complexity, abilities, etc for the harder settings.

There is no need to worry about how much CPU/memory it uses if you have a tool tip that warns the user that this particular setting will be CPU/memory heavy and will have a severe impact on performance and require a 8-core or better CPU and 16GB of memory or whatever it will require.

More and more gamers are buying top end gaming rigs every day so they can play 4k games which means they will have the resources that these features will require and they will seriously appreciate the time and effort you put into it.

I've got a 10 core i9 7900 OCed to 4Ghz on water cooling with 32GB of DDR4 PC-3600, put me in the game coach!

 

[faatal]

Wait why not?This is where giving only a select number of zombies special actions would make sense so that not all the zombies are trying to do this, so for instance you could limit it to the construction/lumberjack zombies.

What I described was a sequence of operations, which the system does not really have states for. It is much more fluid in what they do at any moment. The path really acts as a top level state for what a zombie is doing to get to you, but it is mostly the same for everyone and as it gets more specialized, it gets slower and uses more memory. I'm not saying they won't have more varied behavior, but not for A17.

I was excited when you posted this, have you had a chance to implement any of it?

You will see some of that.

 

[Roland]

I respectfully disagree with you on a few points Tea.

First of all yellow text is horrible on mobile. I was interested enough in the convo to press my edit button so I could read it in plain text but nobody else can do that so...maybe Red next time?

Secondly as to your points, what Tea is talking about is incentives. Xp and loot are incentives for killing zombies. If the events in the game really happened you wouldn’t go out of your way to kill zombies and rifle through their pockets. You would avoid and only risk getting infected by engaging when necessary. This is, in fact, the way the game was for the first 11-12 alpha versions before xp was added. It’s only been in the last four versions that now people feel they can’t miss an opportunity to get a kill. (Of course the last four Alphas about equal the first 11 timewise...). Removing the incentives for killing zombies and switching those incentives to other activities would change the feel of the game to where how you play is how you actually would act given the scenario.

Anyway, you definitely don’t need to earn xp from killing zombies. The game was quite good for a long time without that incentive. However, I also recognize the fun that people have killing zombies and getting rewards for doing so and I think those who want the feel of the game to be more survival horror than first person shooter are probably in the minority so probably best as a mod. Can’t wait Jax. I’ll def give it a go.

 

[faatal]

Very nice to hear zombies will be able to use ladders as well!
I was wondering, why are these AI-features still being added after the confirmed A17 feature freeze (as mentioned in the first post)? Is there something I'm missing?

That is what I call a bug fix. Zombies climbed ladders before, but the new pathing system did not handle it, so in my mind it was a missing feature from A16, that could be added to A17 with less than a days work, so it was.

 

[faatal]

I watched one video once with regards to tree houses. Apparently at the time of test zombies didn't damage trees and so theoretically it was forever safe from ground assault.
Does any one know if the AI will now allow them to hit trees?

That was brought to my attention a week or so ago. Have not tested trees vs zombies yet.

 

[The Batman]

and I think those who want the feel of the game to be more survival horror than first person shooter are probably in the minority so probably best as a mod. Can’t wait Jax. I’ll def give it a go.

If we do it right probably everyone will like it. I can remember that in dying light I'd pretty much try and avoid all the zombies as much as I could.

What if zombies in 7days didn't drop regular items like guns etc, but stuff you need to craft / to cook / that's worth collecting. And items like guns / special tools could be limited to certain POI's or Special zombies.

Not sure what it could be that the zombies would drop, as of right now we don't really have the specific crafting system to go with it.

Armor / weapons crafted at workbenches could require something that only drops of zombies (to make them stronger than without).

Special or better healing stuff could be made with zombie essence (gross).

- You could get exp from zombies (allowing you to exp farm as Rambo)

- They wouldn't drop the same items as in containers or in the same quantities. BUT the loot they drop will make it worth killing them. Maybe for special mid / end game stuff.

OR

- No exp from zombies.

- tweeked loot that differs from containers.

- Different incentive to get rid of zombies?

- New incentives of rewards when avoiding zombies?

- Extra punishment when fighting a lot of zombies? (spawning in more like the volatile ones in dying light) ?

EDIT:

- When zombies near a radius of 100 blocks, crops won't grow as good. Health will not go up.

- Getting caught in group fight calls in new type of hunter zombies.

- Bonusses when killing of zombies inside a certain area. ( higher loot % // more yields from crops // better health gains)

 

[wolfbain5]

If we do it right probably everyone will like it. I can remember that in dying light I'd pretty much try and avoid all the zombies as much as I could.

What if zombies in 7days didn't drop regular items like guns etc, but stuff you need to craft / to cook / that's worth collecting. And items like guns / special tools could be limited to certain POI's or Special zombies. <not interested in zombie goo, get your hentai elsewhere>

Not sure what it could be that the zombies would drop, as of right now we don't really have the specific crafting system to go with it. <fertilizer and glue mats so far, leave as is?>

Armor / weapons crafted at workbenches could require something that only drops of zombies (to make them stronger than without).

Special or better healing stuff could be made with zombie essence (gross). <again with zombie goo>

- You could get exp from zombies (allowing you to exp farm as Rambo) <good for the fps crowd, make it optional?>

- They wouldn't drop the same items as in containers or in the same quantities. BUT the loot they drop will make it worth killing them. Maybe for special mid / end game stuff. <soldiers and cops have rare chance of ammo or gun or armor, nurses have chance for meds, the rest clothing and ordinary junk?>

OR

- No exp from zombies.

- tweeked loot that differs from containers.

- Different incentive to get rid of zombies? <like the above 3>

- New incentives of rewards when avoiding zombies? <called staying alive>

- Extra punishment when fighting a lot of zombies? (spawning in more like the volatile ones in dying light) ? <not needed, getting swarmed is getting swarmed>

EDIT:

- When zombies near a radius of 100 blocks, crops won't grow as good. Health will not go up. <only works if they have a necromantic or irradiated aura>

- Getting caught in group fight calls in new type of hunter zombies. <nah. screamers>

- Bonuses when killing of zombies inside a certain area. ( higher loot % // more yields from crops // better health gains)

how about these?

 

[Aldranon]

and I think those who want the feel of the game to be more survival horror than first person shooter are probably in the minority so probably best as a mod.

Good call there. God knows the world needs yet another first person shooter.

 

[The Batman]

how about these?

+1 for negative aura's. Some mods already have bosses that debuff you.

- True that staying alive is already an incentive. But the risk / reward could be balanced better still.

I'd still think we need new zombie types though. Maybe when fighting or spawning a lot of them.... Zombies can spawn that entangle you so you can't move? Right now screamers are just exp and item farms once you get guns.

I'd like to see screamers spawn more tactical zombies. Not the HP soaking radiated cops etc. But zombies that slow you, that stun you from a range. Zombies that leap at you. etc etc.

 

[Menace312]

Good call there. God knows the world needs yet another first person shooter.

Yeah, it's also news to me that this is the focus...

 

[vedrit]

Zombies that leap at you. etc etc.

Leaping zombers would be interesting. No kiting hoards with these little nasties flying out from the crowd at you!