PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17
- Thread starter Roland
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Crater Creator
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I agree only insofar as adjusting the difficulty and fixing exploits are separate goals, so addressing one doesn't necessarily address the other. Since the developers define the rules of the game, of course they could construct a set of rules such that the zombies can't be exploited in-game. It doesn't even require much imagination. I find this notion that this is a 'fight' the developers can't 'win' as irritating as it is wrong.
The real issue is the result may not be fun. With too much focus on whether the human can always beat the AI or the AI can always beat the human, one can lose sight of that goal. Deep Blue beat Kasparov at chess in 1997, but it wasn't designed to be a fun match.
In the case of 7DtD, I think the measure of a good AI is that it makes the obvious, natural, and/or least costly move. If the AI reaches a point where you can watch it and no longer say to yourself, "That's not smart - why doesn't the zombie simply do xyz instead?" we'll be in good shape.
Obviously we don't have real zombies to compare to. But if you imagine being chased by something like a dog or bear hell-bent on eating you, there are deterrents you’d reasonably expect to work. You can put a tree between you and the animal, and it has to either go around left, right, or through the tree. If the AI can handle this case as well as an animal or even a human could, then it’s good enough, and using this tactic is not exploiting the AI since it's already optimal.
JayzenFreeze
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The tooth kraken demands A17 release lol.
Crater Creator
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In a movie or book, we care about dramatic tension. We care about that sometimes in games, too, but it doesn’t have to be fun or balanced for the characters. The audience can still be entertained while the character's situation is unpleasant, since they're different entities. Since we don’t get to choose what the character does in non-interactive fiction, we can lament their poor choices, but we’ll never know what would happen if they did something other than what they did.What's interesting is that if we were watching a movie or reading a book about a guy who woke up in a zombie apocalypse after being in a coma and he found some helpful survivors and one of those survivors said, " We discovered months ago that the zombies favor doors so we always use tunnels with camouflaged entrances. We think they must have some residual knowledge from before they were infected that makes those bastards instinctively seek out doors." -- we would then accept that exposition as the way the universe of the movie worked and happily watch the rest of the movie without thinking that those survivors were being cheap exploiting recognizable zombie behavior. (In fact, it is inexplicable why the characters in TWD never routinely rubbed guts on themselves whenever going out since they learned early on that it worked...)
But in games, we don't want to be bored by predictable enemy behavior.
In the case of TWD, I'm sensitive to plot holes too, but I didn't find the rubbing guts thing to be one. There are reasons the characters wouldn't do that as a matter of course: because they're confident in their ability to defend themselves, because they put a greater value on retaining their feeling of humanity, because it'll hurt their charisma the next time they deal with a survivor, because they'll puke and food is hard enough to come by, etc.
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What? Nobody said that.
Roland
Community Moderator
Okay...I admit that people might eventually learn such zombie behavior -- IF -- the zombies actually will all go to the single layer side of the base and leave the double layer side alone-- which I still doubt will happen except for very small bases and once faatal is done it may not even uniformly and predictably happen for very small bases.
I saw a bit of premature lamenting...and poking holes in something shared the moment it is shared and even warned that it is just the very beginning of the process isn't always the best thing to do. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. Jurassic Park taught us that.
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Aldranon
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A17 cant be released yet!
I just started a new game, this time to test the shotgun perks, as I now know I can make a ton a shotgun shells consistently. This is truly a potential game changer for me and I want to make sure that using a skilled up shotgun wielding player is just as useful as a rifle expert.
Even if a maxed out shotgun player is slightly less than a rifle expert, it would still be a VERY strong choice!
Anyone ever do a shotgun focus and if so, what do you think?
I just started a new game, this time to test the shotgun perks, as I now know I can make a ton a shotgun shells consistently. This is truly a potential game changer for me and I want to make sure that using a skilled up shotgun wielding player is just as useful as a rifle expert.
Even if a maxed out shotgun player is slightly less than a rifle expert, it would still be a VERY strong choice!
Anyone ever do a shotgun focus and if so, what do you think?
JayzenFreeze
New member
Any ETA on the next video preview of A17? Starting to get the itch need more visuals lol.
Xrt
Banned
Yes. 7D2D will get VR support somewhere down the line, I believe.
Since it was a kickstarter goal.
If they fail to deliver these goals they are looking at 10 years in prison, and a fine for up to 250.000$
JK
I'm really looking forward to VR support!
But for now, I'm just really looking forward to A17
I am not sure why people are worrying about Zombie AI been learn and workaround by player is done, for example no one make doors in their base. It is just A17, not end of development. When we start to learn with AI of zombie as they throw, they will take our feedback and redevelop it .. making them smarter .. And eventually whatever a development team do. one day most user start to learn how to win a game. It is just matter of time. So, whatever they come up with AI. I am pretty sure it cannot be Invincible forever.
Death Wish
New member
Would love it for this game to have the ability to shove zombies away, maybe it cost a lot with stamina and/or not possible with bigger fatter zombies and/or certain timing with it like in between zambie attacks or like whatever. Thanks toodles
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
Sheesh Roland, wearing zombie guts all the time is even a stretch for "no shower" rick. Look what happen to father gabriel.What's interesting is that if we were watching a movie or reading a book about a guy who woke up in a zombie apocalypse after being in a coma and he found some helpful survivors and one of those survivors said, " We discovered months ago that the zombies favor doors so we always use tunnels with camouflaged entrances. We think they must have some residual knowledge from before they were infected that makes those bastards instinctively seek out doors." -- we would then accept that exposition as the way the universe of the movie worked and happily watch the rest of the movie without thinking that those survivors were being cheap exploiting recognizable zombie behavior. (In fact, it is inexplicable why the characters in TWD never routinely rubbed guts on themselves whenever going out since they learned early on that it worked...)
But in games, we don't want to be bored by predictable enemy behavior.
Scyris
New member
As for the walking dead comment.. I think the smell would have alot to do with it. Who would want to constantly coat themselves with putrid smelling rotting flesh everytime they go outside?What's interesting is that if we were watching a movie or reading a book about a guy who woke up in a zombie apocalypse after being in a coma and he found some helpful survivors and one of those survivors said, " We discovered months ago that the zombies favor doors so we always use tunnels with camouflaged entrances. We think they must have some residual knowledge from before they were infected that makes those bastards instinctively seek out doors." -- we would then accept that exposition as the way the universe of the movie worked and happily watch the rest of the movie without thinking that those survivors were being cheap exploiting recognizable zombie behavior. (In fact, it is inexplicable why the characters in TWD never routinely rubbed guts on themselves whenever going out since they learned early on that it worked...)
But in games, we don't want to be bored by predictable enemy behavior.
Scyris
New member
I wish ALL zombies would only make a sound if they see the player, I never use guns because in a poi it wakes up the whole damned thing and then its zombie screech-a-thon. I'd rather them not make any voices but still try to destroy stuff.Edit: Or, each zombie has a behavior:
-Nurses always target the player and always go for the easiest path.
-Bikers and lumberjacks will head straight for the player location and start attacking anything in there way.
-Spider zombies will quietly climb up the walls and only make a small sound when it sees the player.
This would give each zombie type some feel to them and no just a random, generic zed.
Opps! dang Internets not doing what I wanted!
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If that is someones real pulled tooth man the pain must have been brutal once the freezing wore off.
Scyris
New member
I find the shotgun weak myself, its base damage is not to high when you factor in you bascally have to be kissing the zombie to do anything to it. Its headshot mult is low, and its per ray/pellet. Meanwhile the sniper hits almost as hard as a shotgun (with buckshot not slugs), at a much farther range with a 9x headshot bonus iirc. Add in the fact in a17 you can have a silenced sniper rifle, and well.... yeah.. I can't see ever using the shotgun unless it gets a silencer as well. Has too many demerits compared to any of the rifles. I find the pistol equally useless, as its range is ass, and it hits like a wet noodle. SMG is slightly better but not by much due to its lower headshot mult, but it does fix the range/sound issue. When a wooden bow with stone arrows hits as hard or harder at quality 25-50 than a 560 quality pistol, you know there is a balance issue there. You could argue clip size, but I find clip size moot, because of how much the zombies move after a headshot, its rare to be abel to double tap a zombie before its head moves way out of range.. They need to fix that tbh, they move way to much when shot.
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