PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

In other words the zombies themselves don't really thematically know which blocks are weakest and are targeting those, it's just that their coding has them target those blocks so that destructive progress is made and the player feels pressure to actively defend.
If the zombies appear to be hitting random blocks and the players don't know the exact algorithm then the players simply fight and react to zombies as they hit blocks. If the players know the secret sauce behind it all then they start setting up metas and building defenses around the known coded routines of the zombies and this takes away from gameplay in my opinion.

For better or worse, I don't think it makes much difference. Even if the developers kept the AI a total secret, players would deduce the zombie's behavior shortly after each release. Any deviation from random chance would be noticed, especially with as many hours as people sink in the game, and especially since as a sandbox survival game players are put in the mindset of discovering every edge they can find.

I do agree with you that it's more fun in spirit to just experience the game firsthand. Some spoiler tags wouldn't hurt here and there. But rather than dwell on the devs revealing too much, I think it'd be better to go with solutions that bypass the need for 'secrets' in the first place. For example, the ability to attack while on a ladder wouldn't be some behind-the-scenes algorithm: it'd simply be filling out what I think we'd all expect a zombie would do anyway.

 

[Aldranon]

Translation: how about a dev expose the frequency of horde nights to xml and include a random range, so that it's not always 7, so that modders can do it without using custom code?

See? Now forever must you pay for your sins against Roland.

It's good entertainment for the rest of us.

 

[Crater Creator]

I haven't used character subs-tit-ution at all. I'm just trying to find out where the profanity filter draws the line... apparently the city of S♥♥♥♥horpe must forever remain obscured.

Indeed, which is why your post wasn't edited. But two recent posts were, and after already catching several earlier this week, I thought it was time to say something.

I don't know what can be done about false positives like "S♥♥♥♥horpe," but at least false negatives can be eliminated by not deliberately typing "z0mbies" if "zombies" would be filtered (not directed at The Gronk - you know who you are ).

 

[The Gronk]

Wouldn't fly as most pvp players are more intersted in ganking people than actual fair fights, it is a good idea though, but I can already see them crying about it because they can't just gank anyone they see anymore.

The problem is that hunting humans can become addictive. Some will try to get their fix any way they can and get very cranky if someone tries to stop them.

"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."

- Ernest Hemingway

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed, which is why your post wasn't edited. But two recent posts were, and after already catching several earlier this week, I thought it was time to say something.
I don't know what can be done about false positives like "S♥♥♥♥horpe," but at least false negatives can be eliminated by not deliberately typing "z0mbies" if "zombies" would be filtered (not directed at The Gronk - you know who you are ).

There are definitely some words that should be blocked but aren't. The reason I use Scun-thorpe as an example is because the city council had huge problems many years ago when microsoft implemented a similar filter.

 

[Gnomaana]

Wouldn't fly as most pvp players are more intersted in ganking people than actual fair fights, it is a good idea though, but I can already see them crying about it because they can't just gank anyone they see anymore.

Made up statistics are bad no matter what side you are on. It only seems like the majority of PVPers are the childish type that play the way you say because those are the ones you remember. The one that passes you by and looks for a fair fight will never stick in your mind like the idiot that kills you instantly in any way he can.

I'm in the middle of the road, so to speak, on PVP. I rarely actually PVPed but always chose pvp servers just for the added difficulty. There were always idiots around but most of the players really were only interested in fighting if you were.

 

[Crater Creator]

The problem is stupid zombies are no challenge unless they either a) come in huge numbers or b) have so many hit points they are hard to kill.
a) isn't really doable in a voxel game. Optimization will help them be able to up the numbers somewhat but there will be a ceiling. and b) is no fun at all. The only realistic(from a programming standpoint, not "realism") way to make them more challenging is to make them smarter. Hide it under random behavior if possible so they still seem stupid but they need to take out pillars, or go for weak blocks, or whatever else the devs think up. But, given the limitations of voxel based games, they will be somewhat smarter than your average movie zombie or they won't be challenging at all.

I disagree that making them smarter is the only realistic way to make them more challenging. They could have additional physical abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that they can't overcome with intelligence. They already have quite a few - they can spit unlimited amounts of acid, regenerate health, never get tired, break steel with their bare hands, etc.

We can debate whether 'smart' zombies or 'magic' zombies are more purist. But probably a big reason why they've already fallen more on the supernatural abilities side of things is precisely because it's a realistic (from a programming standpoint) way to make them more challenging.

 

[Scyris]

Wasn't there a massive controversy about that a little while back, in terms of getting the game censored / banned in certain countries which would possibly affect sales or something?
We already got tits, though.. I love this. Need more tits.

More topless Zombies please MadMole.

... maybe ♥♥♥♥s too.

I'd like more monster-like enemies myself, with special abilities like able to jump on you and such. I love the exploration and looting aspect of 7dtd but I feel the enemy side is extremly lacking, as most zombies are the exact same one with just slightly diffrent stats. Them all looking like photocopied clones doesn't help with this either. Don't go on about realism either, we can carry thousands of wood and iron on us, zombies can punch thru concrete, which I dunno if you ever tried to punch it, you'd destroy your hand long before you'd cause any damage to that concrete, even faster for a zombie as their stuff is rotted already. Only zombie that scares me at all is the cops, as they puke acid and also suicide bomb when near death... We need more special zombies like those.

A randomizer for zombie stats/abilities and looks would be awesome, as then no 2 zombies would be the exact same, would make it alot more intersting, Could have a cheer leader zombie that can puke acid at you and run, while another one might be slower than normal but with more hp/damage.

 

[Gnomaana]

I disagree that making them smarter is the only realistic way to make them more challenging. They could have additional physical abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that they can't overcome with intelligence. They already have quite a few - they can spit unlimited amounts of acid, regenerate health, never get tired, break steel with their bare hands, etc.
We can debate whether 'smart' zombies or 'magic' zombies are more purist. But probably a big reason why they've already fallen more on the supernatural abilities side of things is precisely because it's a realistic (from a programming standpoint) way to make them more challenging.

Judging by Faatal's posts lately they are taking both approaches. I don't mind the special abilities. I was just pointing out the illogical nature of saying "smart zombies bad" "magic zombies good".

 

[AniAniShelto]

:nerd: talk.George Romero had zeds that used weapons, in just about every one of his movie. Return of the living dead had zeds that could talk n run n use ladders. WWZ had runners and they could climb and so on. I guess I want to know from others what Zed movie or books did they watch/read that didn't have zeds having an edge in some form or another. I really can't recall any books or movies (except White Zombie? can't fully recall in that one) that didn't give zeds (or at least some zeds) semi intelligence or instinct in some form or another.

My vote is zeds with semi Intelligence so I agree with smarter zeds or some being smarter at least.

Oh! I take that back "High School Of The Dead" didn't have any real intelligent zeds, other than them being pure eating machines and using numbers.

I can't think of any movies or books off the top of my head, but the zombies in The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead are pretty much devoid of any instincts or "edge". They're slow, stupid and almost a non threat when not in an enormous group. That being said, they are probably the most boring and uneventful group of zombies I've ever seen, so I do agree with you that the zombies should have some sort of advantage over the player to keep things interesting.

 

[Roland]

For better or worse, I don't think it makes much difference. Even if the developers kept the AI a total secret, players would deduce the zombie's behavior shortly after each release. Any deviation from random chance would be noticed, especially with as many hours as people sink in the game, and especially since as a sandbox survival game players are put in the mindset of discovering every edge they can find.
I do agree with you that it's more fun in spirit to just experience the game firsthand. Some spoiler tags wouldn't hurt here and there. But rather than dwell on the devs revealing too much, I think it'd be better to go with solutions that bypass the need for 'secrets' in the first place. For example, the ability to attack while on a ladder wouldn't be some behind-the-scenes algorithm: it'd simply be filling out what I think we'd all expect a zombie would do anyway.

I think it makes all the difference but at the same time like a wreck on the highway I can’t not look. I am too interested in the development process—at least as much as in the game itself so when faatal posts updates to his AI work I’m going to look at it and think about it including ways to defeat it.

But for gameplay I think figuring it out through in game observation is superior to just learning here how the AI works before A17 ever drops. Sacrificing that is just a price I must make to fully enjoy the early access experience.

I do believe that the zombies need to know which blocks are weakest, load bearing, and valuable to the player. Then some randomness can make it so they don’t always target these blocks but sometimes they do and whatever block they dontarget they actually hit it. So I think making it so zombies know the important blocks to hit and can target them sometimes is the right place to start and I’m excited to read more as it develops even though it might diminish my enjoyment of actually playing.

 

[Roland]

I can't think of any movies or books off the top of my head, but the zombies in The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead are pretty much devoid of any instincts or "edge". They're slow, stupid and almost a non threat when not in an enormous group. That being said, they are probably the most boring and uneventful group of zombies I've ever seen, so I do agree with you that the zombies should have some sort of advantage over the player to keep things interesting.

Instinctual animalistic predatory cunning mixed with a hive mind is what I want. Not smart enough to use tools but willing to crawl or climb using hand holds and openings if smell, sound, motion, or light draws them forward. If two or three zombies turn toward a potential meal then others in the area do as well.

If a zombie knows you are close but can’t find you it rages against nearby blocks to try and bring down the obstacle or perch preventing it from getting what it wants and others will aggro and join in and if they can actually target blocks and hit them then it will work to become a threat you can’t ignore as you watch them boil below you. Kill them or be ready to bolt or in some way distract them or get them to lose their sense of you because your safe perch will soon fall if you just stand up there watching...

 

[NukemDed]

experiment follows

♥♥♥♥

- - - Updated - - -

ha ha! i thought you jokers were using some special character.

dont mind me, as you were...

 

[Aldranon]

Instinctual animalistic predatory cunning mixed with a hive mind is what I want. Not smart enough to use tools but willing to crawl or climb using hand holds and openings if smell, sound, motion, or light draws them forward. If two or three zombies turn toward a potential meal then others in the area do as well.
If a zombie knows you are close but can’t find you it rages against nearby blocks to try and bring down the obstacle or perch preventing it from getting what it wants and others will aggro and join in and if they can actually target blocks and hit them then it will work to become a threat you can’t ignore as you watch them boil below you. Kill them or be ready to bolt or in some way distract them or get them to lose their sense of you because your safe perch will soon fall if you just stand up there watching...

Make the average zombie like a short range screamer. If they see you and get a scream off before you can neutralize them, then ALL zombies wake up in the area. They could give the stealth player usefulness on par with a melee expert player.

 

[Marinxar]

The problem is stupid zombies are no challenge unless they either a) come in huge numbers or b) have so many hit points they are hard to kill.
a) isn't really doable in a voxel game. Optimization will help them be able to up the numbers somewhat but there will be a ceiling. and b) is no fun at all. The only realistic(from a programming standpoint, not "realism") way to make them more challenging is to make them smarter. Hide it under random behavior if possible so they still seem stupid but they need to take out pillars, or go for weak blocks, or whatever else the devs think up. But, given the limitations of voxel based games, they will be somewhat smarter than your average movie zombie or they won't be challenging at all.

Well, you also have to consider the lore side. Following the Walking Dead Zombies, they pretty stupid as they come, walking in circles, aimlesely and all that. It's pretty accurate on that front.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Spoiler

99% of the population of the steam playerbase.

And would be more like 90% of this game's playerbase too, which would be 10x bigger with a little love towards PVP aspects.

Which is of course, suppressed quite successfully by low-intelligence high-free-time-and-willingness-to-make-10k-posts people like you on forums like this.

Was on discord discussing this with 15 other people of a popular 7 Days Server the other day and them all telling me about their forum posts being censored / not approved / moved / brigaded-by-pve-idiots-posting-off-topic and generally destroying their threads if they mention anything relating to PVP.

Glad to know that it's a common experience. Irony is you don't seem capable of realizing that shooting yourself in the foot; because with the influx of players / excitement / purchases that would come with some TLC paid to the aspects of the game that clearly offend you (PvP), the game as a whole would likely benefit to the extent of improving more the aspects you enjoy (PvE) than it would remaining in it's current state of popularity / niche...

And it would save you the time of making thousands of posts like this and abusing your mod powers... you know, if you don't just enjoy doing those things for the sake of doing those things. :cocksure:

Mod Note: This post contains insults. Please don't respond to the insults.

And here I was thinking I was on edge sometimes..

 

[Marinxar]

And here I was thinking I was on edge sometimes..

That was indeed some forgetive pococurantism involved in that post.

 

[archergod]

Make the average zombie like a short range screamer. If they see you and get a scream off before you can neutralize them, then ALL zombies wake up in the area. They could give the stealth player usefulness on par with a melee expert player.

I like the idea.. at least like 5-10 block zombie in same room should wake up.

- - - Updated - - -

It's been more than 2 weeks, I think we should get a new Video .. Please

 

[Survager]

Translation: how about a dev expose the frequency of horde nights to xml and include a random range, so that it's not always 7, so that modders can do it without using custom code?

It will be "Random Days To Die" )))

 

[toores]

@faatal:


I had another brilliant stroke of pure and utter genius, what if certain zombies attacked blocks that were under the heaviest SI load?

...goodbye supports, hello crashing base?

/geniusing since 1971

So no more building towers in bases?

I actually think it's not a good idea. It might be fun for veteran players, but for a casual player it makes sense to climb the roof and break the stairs. If you make zombies chew through the walls all around the building, the only way to fight that is to stay on the ground level and build thick walls. In this case you MUST rush building skills. If you don't know how or don't like to play like that, you're in heavy disadvantage right away.

How many of you guys build your storage and crafting stations on the second floor just in case Zs break through? With Zs targeting SI weak points you can't retreat to 2nd floor any more. Do i really need to set up base underground even though i don't want to?

And the idea of building a separate horde base actually sounds nonsensical to me. This is already "meta gaming" - you can't protect your valuable stuff by securing a base so you build a "fake base" that has nothing valuable in it. That's not intuitive, it only makes sense in 7D2D.

 

[trielkee]

You don't really need walls around your base, a good trap setup will help plenty.