PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[XCOUNTRY]

But don't we already have this in the game? On hoard night, I will kill a number of these zombies and they will turn into gore blocks. Some of these lay on top of my log spikes.

I thought so too. However, the way it is currently these gore blocks (maybe past alphas they ran differently?) can't stack, which causes a lot of lost loot during horde night. Is there a way to allow this block to stack in the xmls? Could be an easy fix, and after having a couple stacked on top the spikes would be rendered useless (from the top until dead zeds on the sides cover them up). On that note though, they look like they only take up half a block space, so when they stack there would probably be that gap of "air" between them. Some may see that as immersion breaking.

 

[The Gronk]

But don't we already have this in the game? On hoard night, I will kill a number of these zombies and they will turn into gore blocks. Some of these lay on top of my log spikes.

The discussion was about the old gore-block system which I'm sure you remember, the current corpse blocks also have their flaws.

They don't stack which means that you'll only ever have one corpse block above a spike which is never enough to allow Z's to climb up and go over your walls.

The other issue is that if the corpse block is on a spike then quite often a Z will become crippled by a nearby spike and crawl under the corpse block, using its fallen comrade as a shield.

If compound blocks make it into the game I'd like to see the old gore-block system returning, even if its only a mod, even if it means losing precious loot.

 

[toores]

View attachment 24358
In the video, you can see that the pistol with a silencer causes less damage than when there is no silencer.

Gameplay trumps realism?

Maybe the jeep should have no storage then. You move faster, you don't get extra storage. Or make better tools give you less resources. You chop faster, you get less materials.

I see no gameplay win here.

If you want to gameplay and realism to be in balance, tweak the draw and aiming down sights animation speed. Silencers make the weapon longer and heavier.

 

[archergod]

I don't want Digging, There are two reason:

1. You don't always want to fight, you need to organize etc. And for that you do need safe house. Not all are fighter here, in fact if Funs ever run a survey I am pretty sure most will come out as builder then fighter. But that can be me only.

2. It is not natural for zombie to dig, they are seen as mindless creature that just run to grab something, they can sense something and just chase mindlessly. AI help them to do basic stuff, like climbing or finding door, but digging can be a tricking thing for their AI level. yes, I have seen land taking some damage on busy horde night and they go below base 1-2 block, but digging specifically for digging is not good

 

[Shado47]

I also thought that suppressors don't lower the damage... more then 1/5 damage decrease is pretty bad. I'd rather it didn't change.

Especially considering madmole's gameplay footage where it took a ridiculous amount of shots to take down the zombies with what should've been enough bullets to deal with a small horde. Now I know that thats just work in progress and not tweaked at all, and in no way representative of what we will have, but considering even in A16 a pistol can shoot 20 rounds into a zombie without killing it at times, and I mean head and torso, and if a silencer were putting a 20% damage decrease on that, it'd take 24 rounds.

Now I dont know about you but when I find pistols in loot, they generally are not combined with like 200 rounds of ammunition on the 75% loot abundance that I usually play. How is anyone supposed to run a weapon like that before having established themselfes and making their own ammunition?

And by the time anyone makes their own ammunition, nobody uses pistols anymore really. And the blunderbuss is about as useless as it gets and I hope it gets buffed rather than taken out because I think it should actually start to play an important role as a weapon of choice early on.

Also if players can craft guns now from the same parts they craft everything else out of and no longer need specific gun parts, would it be an option to split guns into makeshift-grade and military-grade? Military grade being essentally everything that you find in military loot, while makeshift are the selfmade guns and normal loot guns? That would justify a damage difference since the makeshift-grade guns might have flaws that limit its performance.

I don't want Digging, There are two reason:
1. You don't always want to fight, you need to organize etc. And for that you do need safe house. Not all are fighter here, in fact if Funs ever run a survey I am pretty sure most will come out as builder then fighter. But that can be me only.

I dont see how digging prevents the player from organizing or anything. The only situation in which digging would prevent the player from organizing is if he were doing it in a hole underground. Otherwise simple get into a house, break the stairs, and the upper floor is all yours to spend the night in, organizing all your stuff.

You are right, there are people who are mostly builders and people who are mostly fighters, but 7dtd is about the combination and right now having a safe base is just way too easy. I usually have quite a safe concrete base by day 80 and still manage to ramp up over 2k zed kills by then at the same time.

 

[Sakurambo]

I don't want Digging, There are two reason:
1. You don't always want to fight, you need to organize etc. And for that you do need safe house. Not all are fighter here, in fact if Funs ever run a survey I am pretty sure most will come out as builder then fighter. But that can be me only.

2. It is not natural for zombie to dig, they are seen as mindless creature that just run to grab something, they can sense something and just chase mindlessly. AI help them to do basic stuff, like climbing or finding door, but digging can be a tricking thing for their AI level. yes, I have seen land taking some damage on busy horde night and they go below base 1-2 block, but digging specifically for digging is not good

if you don't want to fight you can turn off the zombie, when you are ready to fight you turn them back on

i like the idea of an underground base, but currently it's pointless without any threats

once zombie can reach me even underground i can build my bunker and not missing part of the fun

 

[Craterz]

As my first post here, and only a meager 250+ hours with this great game... but I do have a bit of experience with real world weapons... and various weapon cartridges (or rounds, or bullets, or whatever you want to call them).

No suppressor needs special ammo. They typically are used in conjunction with sub Sonic ammo because suppressing super Sonic ammo will still result in a Sonic boom.

True... to a point... it's not a sonic "boom" per se, a sonic "boom" is produced from a high velocity (speed in excess of the speed of sound) high mass object, such as military jets, the former space shuttle and the like... but more of a sonic "crack" as FileMachete describes. It's extremely difficult to produce a sonic "boom" with any caliber of firearm. But I'm likely being pedantic. Forgive me if I am :distracted: .

FWIW: Same round from same lot/maker will vary in velocity a bit. Cheap stuff maybe ~30 fps. Adding a can may up velocity, but a different can may not. Really doesn't matter as the change is so small.

This is not actually accurate. Cheap ammunition can vary far more than 30fps, more around the range of 300 fps... in most cases even more. Well known, accurate, mass produced ammunition can vary approximately 200-300 fps per round easily. Carefully hand-loaded cartridges can vary more than 30 fps with ease.

Containing the expanding gases of the propelling charge, if effective, does greatly reduce the muzzle blast & flash. Making it quite a bit harder to pinpoint the source by visual or auditory senses.
Very common to use a suppressor on supersonic rifles since the above still holds true. Yes there is a loud supersonic 'crack' due to the bullet but to someone say a hundred yards away that 'crack' isn't a pinpoint source, the best they can do is more a 45 degree arc of, "somewhere that way".

And worth noting that even with a supersonic round the bullet breaking the sound barrier is still considered below the damage threshold for normal hearing. Meaning it's generally considered 'safe' to fire even a full power 7.62x51 or larger with a good can without hearing protection..

Not exactly true. Most mast produced suppressors will only... suppress... the sound to a level that is "safe", that is, less than 140db, which is still very loud and can easily damage anyones ears with repeated reports. Especially from semi-automatic weapons fired at semi-high rates, let alone automatic weapons. Most suppressors will still require ear protection for anyone firing the real world weapon at any weapon range.

Fun fact: in a number of countries it's considered rude to not use a suppressor while hunting. Those same countries often don't regulate suppressor purchase or ownership; they focus on the firearms themselves. Also, more and more US states are adopting laws to allow suppressor use while hunting.
Their main drawbacks, other than price (and tax stamp/legalities/etc in US), are muzzle weight and added length. Most felt on handguns, though adding a couple pounds onto the end of long rifle barrel is quite noticible.

Somewhat true... many countries limit the calibre of hunting rifles... if allowed at all. Granted, in the USA suppressors are largely legal, but in many cases they do require a FFL and paying the additional tax per suppressor manufactured (not to mention the fees required in obaining an FFL). And when one weighs the benefits and negatives with suppressors... personally, there's not much real world need for one. They don't sound like the typical movie "pffft", any suppressor is much louder than any movie sound track. Depending on the machining of any given suppressor, the accuracy and sound suppression gained, is in reality, minimal.

But... 7d2d is a game... its not reality... nor should it expected it be, imho... So none my meager opinion should matter whatsoever...

Just my two cents...

 

[DaVegaNL]

How about getting bullets from NPC's after completing quests? Seeing that they are often more useful than Duke's.

 

[Simon_Smartypants]

among all these pages, has there been any talk about gardening fixes-improvements yet?

 

[AaronG85]

among all these pages, has there been any talk about gardening fixes-improvements yet?

not as far as I am aware.

 

[Luzifer]

So an engine issue not a design one? Since I don't know anything about what is under the hood I can't argue.
But one last bit of your time think of this. I am not worried about the Nostalgia here this is purely gameplay.

Currently we have 7 biomes

Planes - medium

Forest - easy

Pine Forest - easy

Desert - hard

Snow - hard

Wasteland - very hard

Burnt - very hard

You are removing 2. That is going to leave us with:

Pine Forest - easy

Desert - hard

Snow - hard

Wasteland - very hard

Burnt - very hard

This leaves us with basically 1 easy biome. That means either this single biome will be very common cutting down on variety or the starts are going to be miserable.

Burnt is just ugly and hard to see anything and filled with fire crackling all the time. And is very hot all the time and very little wildlife.

Wasteland is ugly and has no trees with random land mines and very little wildlife no planting food or finding clay.

Desert is pretty, but no trees no clay and very few animals along being hot all the time no planting food or finding clay.

Snow is pretty but the temps and the snow zombies are murder for beginners there is no planting food or finding clay.

Basically we are left with a single biome that is "good" food clay trees animals and decent temperature. Having only 1 good biome sounds like a bad idea.

Uhm there actually are clay deposits in EVERY biome just look up your map and zoom in.

Then search for irregular brown spots- trust me.

Cotton and snowberries ar a nice clayindicator aswell if you got problems to find them in snowy regions

 

[Shado47]

@ Suppressor discussion:
This is a game and the "silencer" models a movie type silencer.

Still, a gun would require cold-loaded ammo to have any realistic hope of being silent so the end result of lower energy/damage can be put on the silencer item.

Folks can argue all they want about how any specific part of that is unrealistic and explain how much more micromanagement is absolutely required to modify and operate firearms. To that I only say: zombies.

I just hope in A17 we won't have to spam 10 rounds into a zombie or 5 rounds into his head to take him down when a fraction of the amount of bullets would realistically do the job (as established on television and in games).

 

[Simon_Smartypants]

So an engine issue not a design one? Since I don't know anything about what is under the hood I can't argue.
But one last bit of your time think of this. I am not worried about the Nostalgia here this is purely gameplay.

Currently we have 7 biomes

Planes - medium

Forest - easy

Pine Forest - easy

Desert - hard

Snow - hard

Wasteland - very hard

Burnt - very hard

You are removing 2. That is going to leave us with:

Pine Forest - easy

Desert - hard

Snow - hard

Wasteland - very hard

Burnt - very hard

This leaves us with basically 1 easy biome. That means either this single biome will be very common cutting down on variety or the starts are going to be miserable.

Burnt is just ugly and hard to see anything and filled with fire crackling all the time. And is very hot all the time and very little wildlife.

Wasteland is ugly and has no trees with random land mines and very little wildlife no planting food or finding clay.

Desert is pretty, but no trees no clay and very few animals along being hot all the time no planting food or finding clay.

Snow is pretty but the temps and the snow zombies are murder for beginners there is no planting food or finding clay.

Basically we are left with a single biome that is "good" food clay trees animals and decent temperature. Having only 1 good biome sounds like a bad idea.

We also don't yet know the size of the redesigned biome, so, maybe, rather than a patchwork of smaller ones, we have a single big biome with the same purpose

 

[Crater Creator]

It’s moot whether they give vertical targeting to one or all zombies. Even if they give the ability to just the spider even I am good enough at modding to spread that ability around. It only takes one.

We have modding as a fallback, yes. But to say it's moot is to say it doesn't matter how the vanilla game turns out, and I have to disagree with you there.

Gameplay trumps realism?Maybe the jeep should have no storage then. You move faster, you don't get extra storage. Or make better tools give you less resources. You chop faster, you get less materials.

I see no gameplay win here.

If you want to gameplay and realism to be in balance, tweak the draw and aiming down sights animation speed. Silencers make the weapon longer and heavier.

I'm totally down for a fast vehicle with no storage space! That sounds like a great operational role to fill, just probably not with the jeep. Whether there should be a vehicle that gives you both comes down to the design: whether you model things horizontally (ex. a wrench is for harvesting, a hammer is for constructing) or vertically (ex. the player progressively upgrades from a wrench to a hammer).

You're giving examples of horizontal designs, but that's not the only approach to gameplay. I do like your idea of silencers slowing down the draw speed though.

 

[johnsonivy771]

k9 dog

Check out the new Perishton and silencer weapon mod!

is there gonna be k9 dogs in alpha 17 where we can tame wolfs to be are k9?

 

[Xeen]

Maybe i'm missing something here but a head shot with a suppressed firearm is still a head shot and should still do the same amount of damage to the brain as a bullet that isn't suppressed because even a suppressed bullet is still moving fast enough to pierce the skull go through the brain and hit the other side of the skull ergo dead zombie.

 

[Sakurambo]

I'm totally down for a fast vehicle with no storage space!

the gyrocopter could fill that role

 

[Demonoid74]

the gyrocopter could fill that role

As long as it has room for a few Molotov cocktails and a snake...we are all set!

 

[toores]

@ Suppressor discussion:
This is a game and the "silencer" models a movie type silencer.

Still, a gun would require cold-loaded ammo to have any realistic hope of being silent so the end result of lower energy/damage can be put on the silencer item.

Folks can argue all they want about how any specific part of that is unrealistic and explain how much more micromanagement is absolutely required to modify and operate firearms. To that I only say: zombies.

It's totally fine by me that suppressor doesn't fully silence a weapon. I just don't like the illogical damage reduction.

And i'd rather have subsonic ammo then "silencer" that reduces damage...

Especially considering madmole's gameplay footage where it took a ridiculous amount of shots to take down the zombies...

No point to get caught in details. Balancing takes place before the release, too early for that.

 

[sillls]

I thought so too. However, the way it is currently these gore blocks (maybe past alphas they ran differently?) can't stack, which causes a lot of lost loot during horde night. Is there a way to allow this block to stack in the xmls? Could be an easy fix, and after having a couple stacked on top the spikes would be rendered useless (from the top until dead zeds on the sides cover them up). On that note though, they look like they only take up half a block space, so when they stack there would probably be that gap of "air" between them. Some may see that as immersion breaking.

The discussion was about the old gore-block system which I'm sure you remember, the current corpse blocks also have their flaws.
They don't stack which means that you'll only ever have one corpse block above a spike which is never enough to allow Z's to climb up and go over your walls.

The other issue is that if the corpse block is on a spike then quite often a Z will become crippled by a nearby spike and crawl under the corpse block, using its fallen comrade as a shield.

If compound blocks make it into the game I'd like to see the old gore-block system returning, even if its only a mod, even if it means losing precious loot.

Yes, I remember now. We were talking about it around the time that Madmole was showing us videos of destroyed building martials being turned into rubble (or dirt like rubble). So I brought up the idea of why not gore blocks? I did not know that there was someone already working on a mod for that. So I suggested to TFP's that they check out this guy's mod. Sadly, TFP's did not seem interested. Roland moved my post and his to another part of the forum.