PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[wolverine576]

I'm not trying to fix a bug per se. I simply want a builder to be able to see all the factors that will affect his building and if he can start from a foundation and not have to worry about anything below that then it makes it a lot less aggravating. I also want people to be able to tunnel and for TFP to be able to create awesome complex caverns and not have it destroy SI for topside builders.

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I have to kinda agree/disagree. I like realism in the game, and building on the surface, should be part of the game, to have to worry about whats underneath. In real world you have to take in account whats below, before you build. Sinkholes have been a problem for a long time. A sinkhole opened up under the Covette Museum, and several cars fell in. I think it should be a threat, in some sort of way, to worry about SI

 

[Jackelmyer]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but it still doesn't matter to me. I have everything at quality 600, any extra stuff I want, it's simpler to get from a trader. That includes the AK-47 you mention: it's WAY easier to go to 15 traders than do one Dishong. Coins? Wet concrete blocks, machete blades, king sized beds, garage doors: sell these things, and you'll get plenty coins.
The one thing that would get me to loot a building? A quest. Give me XP for going into a Dishong and finding some secret schematics that are meaningless in-game, but some NPC wants.

Trader loot needs balancing too IMO. I don't think you should be able to always or almost always buy the best stuff in game from a trader. That and I'm pretty sure they're already planning on nerfing what you can sell to a trader on a daily basis. How, I don't know. A trader who can buy anything is rather OP regardless.

And agreed. I would like it if an NPC handed out a quest to shimmy up that tower. Definitely would make me more apt to go there. Both for Player XP and Faction XP. :-D

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think SI is necessarily bugged. It works as intended and is consistent within its own ruleset. It's just that the current ruleset causes limits I'd rather not have in the game: namely limits on underground caverns and limits on building without full knowledge of what blocks might not be able to be placed or what part of your base might suddenly collapse.
I'm not trying to fix a bug per se. I simply want a builder to be able to see all the factors that will affect his building and if he can start from a foundation and not have to worry about anything below that then it makes it a lot less aggravating. I also want people to be able to tunnel and for TFP to be able to create awesome complex caverns and not have it destroy SI for topside builders.

Perhaps there is a completely different way to calculate SI instead of trying create surface or near surface platforms for the current system. The reason I like the foundation idea if there is any way to make it happen is because it feels more in line with actual building. But I totally see how this could add more problems than it solves and for all I know something like it was proposed and ditched a long long time ago by TFP internally.

I was only asking because based on your rule set, it seems the foundation would be more problematic.

Foundation itself can collapse

Foundation is crazy heavy.

That's all that threw me for a loop. If the foundation itself is now more prone to collapse, then it doesn't matter if it resets SI for what's above it.

Though I may be missing a point here. :-/

 

[graphite]

Can we suvivors build some kind of GPR and have a light on top of are supporting columns to tell us of change in foundation integrity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-penetrating_radar

 

[Jackelmyer]

That's alright, I hold out on them fixing it one way or another as well. Not every idea is golden but even with the granite idea its nothing more than using a "thing" on top of a bug that may resurface somehow. <shrug> so it's pretty even.

I can see what you're saying but I'm also not trying to resolve a bug persay. I'm simply trying to use this SI resetting Granite to make Caves, Caverns, and Tunnels that TFP seems to want to put into the game, and I'd personally love to see, viable within the bounds of the current SI system. Basically, a means for the game to generate wanted air pockets that don't cause SI failures.

 

[Jackelmyer]

P.S. I love you guys. I've got way to much time on my hands and you're all pretty coo to hang out with.

 

[rdunham3]

If someone were to place down a large 2-block-high slab of concrete the zombies would have to just about completely dig out all blocks under it to collapse it, and they won't do that because they'll follow the player around, not gleefully break all blocks in an area. The player would have to consciously lead them around the entire area from above/below to make a collapse happen.

No procedurally generated tunnels would be wide enough to prevent such a slab from being placed in the first place, so if you start off with such a foundation it's pretty much guaranteed to place properly, and then anything built on top of it should be safe. Unless you go out of your way to make single-point-of-failure buildings, and if you WANT destruction that much who are we to say you can't have it?

 

[Tin]

I can see what you're saying but I'm also not trying to resolve a bug persay. I'm simply trying to use this SI resetting Granite to make Caves, Caverns, and Tunnels that TFP seems to want to put into the game, and I'd personally love to see, viable within the bounds of the current SI system. Basically, a means for the game to generate wanted air pockets that don't cause SI failures.

heh I'm with any potential idea, Rolands, Yours, Maharin's... etc,. Just trying to find a way. I want perlin cave systems back

So my idea: Why not create another "Air block" specifically one that gets place underground that has structural integrity that the player can pass through? SI mechanic calculates it as just another terrain block, basically making it think its a solid, thinking the cave/tunnel is filled in?

its fun to have a round table discussion even if it goes nowhere at times

 

[Bubo]

P.S. I love you guys. I've got way to much time on my hands and you're all pretty coo to hang out with.

Back at'cha :tickled_pink:

 

[Obuthan]

It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities to take on a herd with a handbag, especially if that hand bag has several stacks of concrete in it!

Devs handbag of Doom:

Hand bag that would be found only on an old cat lady's arm. For some reason it is sporting a massive beard, and seems to have a cross face looking out at your opponent. Bottom of the bag has a destinctuve anvil shape. Does double damage on holidays, and causes all NPCs to comment on a mysterious fish smell, mixed with gunpowder.

During Halloween the beard teleports to the person using the bag. Lasts until the end of Halloween.

Spitballing....

 

[Jackelmyer]

heh I'm with any potential idea, Rolands, Yours, Maharin's... etc,. Just trying to find a way. I want perlin cave systems back
So my idea: Why not create another "Air block" specifically one that gets place underground that has structural integrity that the player can pass through? SI mechanic calculates it as just another terrain block, basically making it think its a solid, thinking the cave/tunnel is filled in?

its fun to have a round table discussion even if it goes nowhere at times

Yes, the round table is fun! :-D

And... Airblock for underground that functions as supported? So... You could stick a regular block right in the middle of a cavern?

 

[meganoth]

In my assessment granite, as it's been described, comes up short. ... You can dig out everything on all sides from the granite, and since it has bedrock-level structural integrity, it will float in air.

If this is the problem with granite, then it isn't a problem. If granite resets SI calculation for anything above it but not for itself then it still needs dirt or stone below it. In other words it will not float.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[Jackelmyer]

If this is the problem with granite, then it isn't a problem. If granite resets SI calculation for anything above it but not for itself then it still needs dirt or stone below it. In other words it will not float.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

That's the idea I was thinking with Granite. It's just a Stone block. All the same mechanics, except one: It reset's SI. So yeah. It should collapse like Stone, have the same health as stone, have the same resistances as stone, same structural integrity itself as stone, and so on. Just anything that connects with it treats the granite, itself, as bedrock only, only only, from the perspective of SI.

 

[graphite]

heh I'm with any potential idea, Rolands, Yours, Maharin's... etc,. Just trying to find a way. I want perlin cave systems back
So my idea: Why not create another "Air block" specifically one that gets place underground that has structural integrity that the player can pass through? SI mechanic calculates it as just another terrain block, basically making it think its a solid, thinking the cave/tunnel is filled in?

its fun to have a round table discussion even if it goes nowhere at times

We need to make or break this idea.

I cannot fault it , if it has inheritance of an air block it should work.

Not sure how replacing with other blocks will work out but should be the same as air and not sure about them being stacked above each other if that should happen but with no collision entities should fall on though it

They could auto upgrade back to a terrian block also

 

[Jackelmyer]

I think generally speaking something to note on all of these ideas, is that in theory, a block itself should be able to say "I make everything above me structurally stable". While it also should be able to fall based on structural integrity rules.

SI doesn't check the block itself to see if it is secure. It checks the block next to it. At least I understand SI to work as:

Concrete Block: "Hey Sand Block! Can I stick to you!? Lets be best friends!"

Sand Block: "No! You're too fat! You'll make us both fall!"

Concrete Block: "Great! YAY FRIENDS!"

Sand Block: "I said no!"

<thump>... <stick>...

Concrete Block: "Hehe... We're friends"...

<falling screams of the Concrete Block and the Sand Block...>

Sand Block: "I... haaate... yooooou..."

If Concrete Block would have reflected on the reality of who and what he/she really is, no blocks, would have been hurt, in this situation.

At least... That's how I understand it.

So... Making a block that reset's SI?

Concrete Block: "Hey Granite Block! Can I stick to you!? Lets be best friends!"

Granite Block: "No. Sit on me. No questions. It's just best."

Concrete Block: "Oooo. You sound mysterious. Is there something special about you?"

Granite Block: "Meh. Just sit on me and everyone will like you better. Sand may even forgive you."

<thump>... <stick>...

Granite Block: "■■■■ it! I said ON! Not TO! What's with you Concrete types?! I've got 5 off each of my faces... wait..."

Concrete Block: "Hehe... We're friends"...

<falling screams of the Concrete Block and the Granite Block...>

Granite Block: "I... haaate... yooooou as weeeeeell..."

If Concrete block would have just listened and followed the advise of wise and semi indifferent Granite Block, no blocks, would have been harmed, in this situation...

 

[Tin]

Yes, the round table is fun! :-D
And... Airblock for underground that functions as supported? So... You could stick a regular block right in the middle of a cavern?

Our players already walk through blocks and place blocks through them already, your just replacing one block with another. xD The new blocks below ground would function the same just with the added benefits of tricking the SI as being a solid block.

 

[meganoth]

That's the idea I was thinking with Granite. It's just a Stone block. All the same mechanics, except one: It reset's SI. So yeah. It should collapse like Stone, have the same health as stone, have the same resistances as stone, same structural integrity itself as stone, and so on. Just anything that connects with it treats the granite, itself, as bedrock only, only only, from the perspective of SI.

Yes. But lets be exact. When you mean "connects with it", do you mean from all sides or just from above? I.e. it definitely should not give any SI to anything below it, otherwise we have the hanging buildings again. Even the sides are a bit critical, the stability should only confer to blocks placed on (i.e. above) a granite block.

EDIT: Ok, your sock puppets, well more like concrete puppets, made it clear you meant "above". Thanks for the clarification

 

[graphite]

Regarding the airblock tin suggested

I think the problem is that zombies would need there AI programmed so instead of breaking a terrain block it uses action 1 to upgrade to airblock_spec.

Thus the tunnel will still maintain SI and will turn back to terrain over time.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Yes. But lets be exact. When you mean "connects with it", do you mean from all sides or just from above? I.e. it definitely should not give any SI to anything below it, otherwise we have the hanging buildings again. Even the sides are a bit critical, the stability should only confer to blocks placed on (i.e. above) a granite block.

I think my explanation of Structural Integrity above answers this. But yeah. Only what's on top of Granite would reset SI. I mean, that's basically what it is now. Everything is a vertical check until it's not supported.

So, for caves and such, if they're always lined with granite, at least on world gen, then the only SI issues you have are those you create for yourself.

And if you make an effect that when a zombie digs, not explodes, but it a zombie digs it turns the blocks it's digging through and any block touching it into granite, you can have zombies dig anywhere.

 

[Jackelmyer]

Our players already walk through blocks and place blocks through them already, your just replacing one block with another. xD The new blocks below ground would function the same just with the added benefits of tricking the SI as being a solid block.

I see what you're saying. I think the issue here is you could kinda have permanent weird SI stable blocks. Meaning, I could then build a platform off of caverns walls, then expand all sides of the cavern disconnecting my platform. Right?

 

[Janna3921]

8-|
I have a very serious new NPC request. I want a wandering Mademole modeled bag lady, beard and all, slightly hunched, and generally miserable looking. That wields a gaudy ugly purse as a weapon. "He's" a wandering grumpy trader of scavenged goods.

I'll stop asking for anything ever again.

I second that, it would be awesome to see that walking around, swinging a bag at zombies as they tried to attack him (her?). The bag lady would pack such a wallop that the zombies would be stumbling back. Soooooooooo funny LOL