PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17
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Ouch Quit It
Chronic Cougher
Well ..you will be an easy target while placing those frames to get to the ladder that is 3 blocks high
Coughs * VIDEO * Coughs
The AI must be fairly bug free if Faatal is taking requests, it appears now is the time for requests fellas.
@faatal Status on climbing zombies being able to attack blocks directly over their heads?
Also have you given any consideration to the WWZ ability of zombies climbing on each others backs like ants to make zombie ladders? <--- This would be badass!
The reason I am asking for this ability is because currently if you build a base with a pit all the way around it the zombies just stand down there at the bottom like dummies because they don't know what to do.
How do you fix this? Well you can either give them the intelligence to start digging block stairs up out of the pit towards the player, or you give them the ability to climb on each other backs to form a zombie ladder, or both.
Also have you given any consideration to giving construction/lumberjack/biker/feral/wight zombies a bonus to breaking blocks?
Go Team Z!
@faatal Status on climbing zombies being able to attack blocks directly over their heads?
Also have you given any consideration to the WWZ ability of zombies climbing on each others backs like ants to make zombie ladders? <--- This would be badass!
The reason I am asking for this ability is because currently if you build a base with a pit all the way around it the zombies just stand down there at the bottom like dummies because they don't know what to do.
How do you fix this? Well you can either give them the intelligence to start digging block stairs up out of the pit towards the player, or you give them the ability to climb on each other backs to form a zombie ladder, or both.
Also have you given any consideration to giving construction/lumberjack/biker/feral/wight zombies a bonus to breaking blocks?
Go Team Z!
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Ayrton
New member
I would like to share with you something that makes me very much, the negative scores that they are giving to the game, in Steam for the time it takes in Alpha, reading the comments in Spanish, the community feels very upset about the time it takes Alfa, I clarify that I'm in the forum a long time ago and I have been registered for a few years ago, and it is perfectly the opinion of the great developers of this great game, guys, please hurry a few weeks before, people are bothering, I would not like See my favorite game with negative votes because my heart hurts, I almost arrived at the 1000 hours of play, I work 6 days a week 11 hours a day and when I arrive at my house, it's only for my mind to play a few hours before sleeping , please follow the great job and guys please include the "gyrocopter" we look forward to this alpha, and we want to see new things, new and clear recipes! a flying vehicle! It is the best after the improved IA for zombies, this game has all the potential of combertice in game A class, boys followed with the great job!
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
Okay, this is the second time someone's painted that mental picture for us just in this thread. I'm gonna have to jump on the Release the Kraken bandwagon now.
Wait why not?
This is where giving only a select number of zombies special actions would make sense so that not all the zombies are trying to do this, so for instance you could limit it to the construction/lumberjack zombies.
I was excited when you posted this, have you had a chance to implement any of it?
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TSBX
Forum Vigilante
I don't think this far in that TFP is suddenly going to cave to Steam review "peer" pressure. The dev cycle is what it is, and folks need to get used to it. The biggest complaints boil down to the fact that some people want independent dev. game play with AAA production, and a AAA cycle.
It's like the old saying, Fast, Good, Cheap. Pick two.
I know which two I pick.
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
Ooh, I can just feel the design discussion heating up.
There comes a critical point where it's no longer a one off, and that's roughly the point where the player can't jump any higher. There are at least two ways to use a ladder in a way the zombies currently can't. One is to jump up onto it, and another is to place blocks under you (nerd pole) and then (typically) remove them.
I see these two as very different. Placing blocks requires planning beforehand to get the resources to make the blocks, and the time to craft them. Beyond that, you are taking advantage of your human intelligence to do something the zombies are unable to do, because they're zombies. Zombies shouldn't be able to gather resources and craft or place blocks. But jumping? That's a physical ability, and I maintain zombies should have the same physical abilities as the player.
Gamida
Hood Ornament
I have already overcome this before while staying on a rooftop first few nights...I just make a ramp about 2 or 3 blocks high depending on how big a gap I leave between it and the building the ladder is on. I can just run up ramp and jump onto the ladder. The zombies just run up ramp and fall off. Rinse. Repeat.
haha True.
Wha… �� lolSillls gonna get mad when a18 drops and no gyro... until devs put seatbelt on it so MM doesnt fall out.
just as funny as dropping bow in horde crowd
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Hell yeah!
Roland dropping the bomb here.
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Crater Creator
Community Moderator
Maybe you all have done this too...
I've found myself working on an outer defense, only to get zombies before I was ready. Now in a hurry to get inside, I realize there's no obvious way to get inside from my position. 'Not letting things in' is the whole point after all, and the base was never designed to accommodate me being in the half-finished moat or wherever I'm stranded. It's the inside-out version of painting yourself into a corner.
Under threat of a gruesome zombie death, I quickly figure something out. I take a running jump over a spike or two, hop up on a decorative railing that isn't really meant to be reachable, scrabble on top of a spotlight... whatever it takes to get to safety. Then I realize that, even though the path I just took hasn't changed, the zombies can't or won't follow me. And not because of deliberate lore limitations on the zombies, like them not using augers or doorknobs, but due to the real world difficulty of coding them to find all those incidental, technically-it-works paths that a motivated human would find.
As soon as that happens, immersion drops considerably. Because it means there's still a 'cheap' way in if someone, player or zombie, really wanted to. My intended entrance, with the drawbridge and double doors etc. etc., turns out to be window dressing. The fact that I've just found a path the zombies won't take makes all previous entrances superfluous.
The saving grace in this situation is that using those emergent, incidental, hop, skip and jump type paths isn't trivial. It takes concentration and platforming skill to use them without suffering fall or trap damage. And I think that's relevant to how zombies would ideally handle these paths.
TL;DR: zombies should have the same physical abilities as players. Something like a broken ladder rung should present an obstacle, but one that can be overcome, for both zombies and players.
I've found myself working on an outer defense, only to get zombies before I was ready. Now in a hurry to get inside, I realize there's no obvious way to get inside from my position. 'Not letting things in' is the whole point after all, and the base was never designed to accommodate me being in the half-finished moat or wherever I'm stranded. It's the inside-out version of painting yourself into a corner.
Under threat of a gruesome zombie death, I quickly figure something out. I take a running jump over a spike or two, hop up on a decorative railing that isn't really meant to be reachable, scrabble on top of a spotlight... whatever it takes to get to safety. Then I realize that, even though the path I just took hasn't changed, the zombies can't or won't follow me. And not because of deliberate lore limitations on the zombies, like them not using augers or doorknobs, but due to the real world difficulty of coding them to find all those incidental, technically-it-works paths that a motivated human would find.
As soon as that happens, immersion drops considerably. Because it means there's still a 'cheap' way in if someone, player or zombie, really wanted to. My intended entrance, with the drawbridge and double doors etc. etc., turns out to be window dressing. The fact that I've just found a path the zombies won't take makes all previous entrances superfluous.
The saving grace in this situation is that using those emergent, incidental, hop, skip and jump type paths isn't trivial. It takes concentration and platforming skill to use them without suffering fall or trap damage. And I think that's relevant to how zombies would ideally handle these paths.
The operative words here are on occasion. If a player can reach a broken ladder solely through his or her character's physical abilities, then the zombies should be able to do that as well. But in practice they only do so sometimes, or doing so slows them down, or only some zombies can manage it. In this way, broken ladders and other such tactics reach a sweet spot, where they present not too much, but not too little challenge to overcome for both players and zombies.
TL;DR: zombies should have the same physical abilities as players. Something like a broken ladder rung should present an obstacle, but one that can be overcome, for both zombies and players.
Roland
Community Moderator
I was being facetious in my post. Allowing zombies to bypass the simple “no bottom rung” solution is great. Of course there will be new solutions. Human players will always be able to find solutions. That doesn’t mean we let simple “no thought or effort necessary” solutions remain.
Mainly I would like to see all the "exploits" eliminated so that people can't take advantage of mechanics and or lack of programming to game the system. Faatal has done a good job of working on this stuff, I just hope he continues to push what's possible and take on new challenges with enthusiasm and vigor.
chaosterone
New member
"Exploits" is really defined by personal preferences. To remove all "exploits" one must give all players a lobotomy, or make zombie apocalypse a real thing. I'll take some exploits in a game.
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
I think it's interesting to consider: should this work?
Does Gamida's tactic work simply because the AI can't manage this kind of path, or because it actually shouldn't manage this kind of path? If it's the former, it's part of a kind of arms race, with players finding loopholes on one side and faatal fixing them on the other side. But if it's the latter, we have a de facto sanctioned, 'yes this would actually work' solution to the fundamental zombie problem.
I'm hoping faatal 'wins' said arms race. Why? Because I would like all the zombie solutions to be balanced, and that would seem difficult to impossible if they're not all accounted for.
Aldranon
New member
Using 7D2D lore, at night they are as agile as a living human. They also know what a door, stairs and a ladder are for, except they dont OPEN doors. So, I agree that at night they should be able to do most things a person with no gear could do.
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Agreed. And not to mention why do people care so much how other players choose to play. If you don't like what you think is an exploit don't do it. Enjoy the game. My 7DTD anniversary shirt shall picture a zombie using a zip line over a behemoth to enter through a window in a player made base. The behemoth will have the caption " look at that gap in the ladder, someone could get hurt".
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
That could be an interesting distinction. Although as the game plays now, I interpret daytime zombies more as being lethargic, than actually having reduced abilities. A cop will still spit in the daytime, and a spider will still climb in the daytime, for instance. The Blood Moon gives them a supernatural awareness ability, but every other night they seem to simply be more active.
Phoenixshade35
New member
Hey Roland, Does that mean you want to eventually eliminate the nerd pole option and have us build scaffolding to get up and down buildings we are making, or will that remain as a mechanic in the game? I'm though am all for making the game tougher makes having new ideas for survival both vanilla and modded better.
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