PC Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

It may help those against LBD to remember you weren't 100 percent locked to LBD. You were given 5 points every level of which you could buy perks OR drop a few in the 100 skills. THAT'S actually a TRUE choice, not whatever this neutered down version of that they are trying to pass off as "flexible".

We gained nothing and lost a lot of choice in gameplay when LBD went away. We always had these perks in some form. That's the kicker. People acting like Dead Shot and SexyTrex are some new kind of perk. Nah, it's the same thing, just without support of Pistols and Mining Tools. Its simpler. This current system could have TOTALLY fit into 16's system with a little maneuvering but they chose the easier path.

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oh you mean static poe? poe is so boring after 3 years its the same rutine you take each time you level up again. AS a Hardcore players its not very fun to get insta shotted by random encounters right becus someone random wanted to have mob eplode on freeze on chaos etc. sure the game is playable with watching a tv but the grind at maps and the boring always get more health isnt much fun.

poe skill tree is huge yet so naked! you think you but you dont.
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I have news for you. Once 7 Days goes Gold and the updates stop rolling in you will feel the exact same about 7 Days. You think the current system as is has enough replay value for 3 plus years?

 
But the current system as is, is not gold.

POE skill tree is massive and empty as the other poster was saying.

Most of the skills are + to stat or + to damage. Nothing interesting at all.

Now grim dawn, skill mastery trees plus devotions should be a roll model for any game, amazingly simple, but also conplex... and FUN (additional abilities etc)

 
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oh you mean static poe? poe is so boring after 3 years its the same rutine you take each time you level up again. AS a Hardcore players its not very fun to get insta shotted by random encounters right becus someone random wanted to have mob eplode on freeze on chaos etc. sure the game is playable with watching a tv but the grind at maps and the boring always get more health isnt much fun.

poe skill tree is huge yet so naked! you think you but you dont.
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I guess those people at GDC 2019 that invited Chris W. (poe's lead) to give a speech about game design with long-term viability/replayability are clueless and you are an expert?

https://gamedevolution.com/industry/path-of-exile-game-developers-conference-2019/

 
It may help those against LBD to remember you weren't 100 percent locked to LBD. You were given 5 points every level of which you could buy perks OR drop a few in the 100 skills. THAT'S actually a TRUE choice, not whatever this neutered down version of that they are trying to pass off as "flexible".
We gained nothing and lost a lot of choice in gameplay when LBD went away. We always had these perks in some form. That's the kicker. People acting like Dead Shot and SexyTrex are some new kind of perk. Nah, it's the same thing, just without support of Pistols and Mining Tools. Its simpler. This current system could have TOTALLY fit into 16's system with a little maneuvering but they chose the easier path.
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You are not everyone. I respect your opinion that due to your playstyle, you lost choices and have less freedom. I am sorry for that, and hope it improves for you.

I lost nothing and gained freedom due to my play style. Can you give me that same respect?

I prefer a17 progression. I liked a16, but a17 suits my play style much better and allows me to play completely organically, focusing on what I need to do at that moment to best survive and thrive with no thoughts or time spent hitting level 40 in construction tools.

It's not that I don't USE construction tools or don't WANT to use construction tools. I just can now use construction tools when I need to and not to get to some arbitrary point to progress. I LIKE that I build what I need to when I need to. Rather than KNOWING for sure absolutely what point in the game I would get concrete because the only way to get it was to perk it AFTER grinding construction tools to 40, I can gather concrete from poi's and/or buy it from the trader to get the small amount I need for reinforcing a poi week 1.

I have 4 ways to get concrete now instead of one that was the same every single restart. I can eventually make it, I can harvest it from poi's, I can buy concrete mix from traders, or I can buy cement from traders and make concrete mix if I have found a working cement mixer anywhere in the world. (I do play solo, so I can leave it mixing one day and come get it the next with no worries.)

While I no longer have a day 1-2 forge, I don't miss it. The amount of iron and steel tools in loot is dramatically increased, at least in my playthroughs so far. The only thing I have issues finding sometimes is a hoe. I DO miss having that early.

There are many more workstations throughout the world that I can wrench for forged iron for tool repairs. Forged steel is a bit harder to find to harvest, so I do mainly rely on the trader to get a few bars to repair my wrench. But I have had no issues maintaining enough forged iron and steel for tool repairs, so the fact that I begin producing my own later in the game than a16 is not important to me.

I am one of "those people" who really enjoy early-mid game and gets bored and restarts soon after I have a steel fortress. I enjoy the whole journey towards becoming invincible. I just get bored once I am. It takes me longer to get to that point in a17, so that journey is longer. It's also a lot more fun for along the way.

The only "choices" I lost when LBD went away was the "choice" to upgrade blocks in poi's as I looted or upgrade/destroy frames over and over because I only had a stone axe when I reinforced my poi, hence leveling mining tools instead of construction tools while I was building. I also lost the "choice" to afk on cactus or leave armor at a minimal level. I lost the "choice" to turn all my cloth to bandages and apply them over and over and over and over or leave medicine at a low level.

I don't feel any sense of loss over putting a point in miner 69er after hitting things with a mining tool x times vs just putting a point into miner 69er. The only difference is now I mine when I need mats instead of when I really want to get one more level to buy miner 69er even though I really need to work on my base and I was hoping to get the shotgun messiah done before horde night.

I can do what I NEED to do instead of what I need to do to be able to buy this perk I really want or feel like I really need. I just play the game now, and I enjoy that.

 
1) I have 4 ways to get concrete now instead of one that was the same every single restart. I can eventually make it, I can harvest it from poi's, I can buy concrete mix from traders, or I can buy cement from traders and make concrete mix if I have found a working cement mixer anywhere in the world. (I do play solo, so I can leave it mixing one day and come get it the next with no worries.)

There are many more workstations throughout the world that I can wrench for forged iron for tool repairs. Forged steel is a bit harder to find to harvest, so I do mainly rely on the trader to get a few bars to repair my wrench. But I have had no issues maintaining enough forged iron and steel for tool repairs, so the fact that I begin producing my own later in the game than a16 is not important to me.

2) The only "choices" I lost when LBD went away was the "choice" to upgrade blocks in poi's as I looted or upgrade/destroy frames over and over because I only had a stone axe when I reinforced my poi, hence leveling mining tools instead of construction tools while I was building. I also lost the "choice" to afk on cactus or leave armor at a minimal level. I lost the "choice" to turn all my cloth to bandages and apply them over and over and over and over or leave medicine at a low level.

3) I don't feel any sense of loss over putting a point in miner 69er after hitting things with a mining tool x times vs just putting a point into miner 69er. The only difference is now I mine when I need mats instead of when I really want to get one more level to buy miner 69er even though I really need to work on my base and I was hoping to get the shotgun messiah done before horde night.

4) I can do what I NEED to do instead of what I need to do to be able to buy this perk I really want or feel like I really need. I just play the game now, and I enjoy that.
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1) This has nothing to do with LBD? I think we all agree these were good changes, no?

2) You could have just played organically and put points into those categories instead exploiting the system.

3) You should have been able to level this organically as well in A16.4 and be able to use your point for 69er. Using your own point of view, playing organically means you have to choose what is better to do at that time. Mine for mats for your horde base, or hit up that shotgun messiah.

4) I'm glad that it works for this way now, honestly. However, there are a lot of us that feel the new system means that we CANNOT do what we need to do for our playstyles and have to rely on doing what is efficient in order to "buy this perk" that happens to be gated behind Skill that must be purchased, that is gated behind a level that must achieved.

I'm honestly not being combative with you, and I know that you and others like the new system. But there are also a lot of us that feel the system is simplified to the point that it's getting boring. None of us want to move on to other games, if we did, we would have instead of voicing our concerns here.

I'm still holding out for an overhaul mod that brings back LBD, hope to see it happen.

 
You are not everyone. I respect your opinion that due to your playstyle, you lost choices and have less freedom. I am sorry for that, and hope it improves for you.
I lost nothing and gained freedom due to my play style. Can you give me that same respect?

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I can do what I NEED to do instead of what I need to do to be able to buy this perk I really want or feel like I really need. I just play the game now, and I enjoy that.
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Seems to me you may be the one not giving respect to anyone who disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there was a way to mix the two systems so that everyone could have gotten what they want. A compromise since the issue seems to be much bigger than initially thought. Otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.

You're the one basically saying no to any suggestions of any changes to the system, either for a hint of LBD or a rework so there are more choices and more play styles can be born. Can you at least offer us, the ones who enjoyed the previous system in some fashion, the courtesy to have enjoyed THAT?

Scanning your post you mentioned "my playstyle" several times. It's awfully selfish for any of us to think that one playstyle is the "right" way. There will never be a right way here. All there can be is a middle ground. Everything else is modding.

 
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As PoppaTot indicated, most of your points are irrelevant with the progression system itself... Most of what you mentioned you could do in A16 as well, or are changes that have nothing to do with the way LBD worked.

I think we won't get anywhere in this discussion by demonizing either system and saying whatever randomness comes to our mind. And because both systems are flawed, it would also be great if we could stop invoking silly obvious flaws in each one, like they were a part of the system.

Also that "I respect that the system you like was great for your playstyle" statement is pretty meaningless and empty and just a fancy way to divert discussion from actual arguments. And besides personal preference for whatever reasons, each system has its own mechanical pros and cons and none of these are subjective - they just "are". If you really believe they are subjective, arguing about it would be silly in the first place. So yeah...

 
Seems to me you may be the one not giving respect to anyone who disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there was a way to mix the two systems so that everyone could have gotten what they want. A compromise since the issue seems to be much bigger than initially thought. Otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.
You're the one basically saying no to any suggestions of any changes to the system, either for a hint of LBD or a rework so there are more choices and more play styles can be born. Can you at least offer us, the ones who enjoyed the previous system in some fashion, the courtesy to have enjoyed THAT?

Scanning your post you mentioned "my playstyle" several times. It's awfully selfish for any of us to think that one playstyle is the "right" way. There will never be a right way here. All there can be is a middle ground. Everything else is modding.
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I also mentioned MY play style. I certainly did not mean mine is "correct" and yours isn't. Just that we play differently and enjoy different things. I have a lot of respect for you and greatly enjoy watching let's plays of the darkness falls mod. I don't play it, because it doesn't suit my play style. I don't particularly like gun parts, I hated sticks and rocks, and there are more workstations than I want to deal with (although a few more would be welcome).

I am also not saying no to anything. If TFP decide to again redo the progression system trying to incorporate both, I will patiently await the delay that causes and try the new system when it's done. If they scrapped a17's system entirely and went back to a16 I would continue to play and enjoy the game even though I wouldn't enjoy it as much as the current version. It is TFP's vision and game and as long as I enjoy it enough to want to play it, I will. I liked a16, I just prefer a17's progression system a lot more.

I personally would prefer it if they moved forward with new things rather than redoing things over and over. My order of personal preference would be a17 progression >a16 progression > redo the progression system yet again. However, it is not MY game, so whichever direction the developers ultimately decide on is fine with me. I will deal with it, play whenever that is the game I want to play, and move on when/if I no longer enjoy it due to either boredom or changes that make it not fun for me.

Modders such as you help a lot with the boredom factor, so keep up the good work as long as you enjoy it.

And as for RestINPieces, I was not trying to demonize anything. The perceived flaws of a17 keep getting pointed out. I was just reminding anyone who seems to have forgotten that a16's system had flaws as well. No system is going to be perfect for everyone since we are all different. But to point out flaws of one while ignoring the flaws of the other is not quite fair. If you want, I'll list what I perceive as a17's flaws, just seems unnecessary since so many of you are already doing that.

And by saying I respect his playstyle, I mean that I don't think his opinion is invalid and I am not trying to convince him that I am right and he is wrong. I am 100% correct about how the changes affect my game play. He is 100% correct about how the changes affect his game play. We just play differently and enjoy different things and that the changes affect us differently. I may have misread what he wrote but it seemed he was saying "we all lost freedom" "we all lost options". I did not and was merely stating that how he feels is not how everyone feels.

 
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1) This has nothing to do with LBD? I think we all agree these were good changes, no?
2) You could have just played organically and put points into those categories instead exploiting the system.

3) You should have been able to level this organically as well in A16.4 and be able to use your point for 69er. Using your own point of view, playing organically means you have to choose what is better to do at that time. Mine for mats for your horde base, or hit up that shotgun messiah.

4) I'm glad that it works for this way now, honestly. However, there are a lot of us that feel the new system means that we CANNOT do what we need to do for our playstyles and have to rely on doing what is efficient in order to "buy this perk" that happens to be gated behind Skill that must be purchased, that is gated behind a level that must achieved.

I'm honestly not being combative with you, and I know that you and others like the new system. But there are also a lot of us that feel the system is simplified to the point that it's getting boring. None of us want to move on to other games, if we did, we would have instead of voicing our concerns here.

I'm still holding out for an overhaul mod that brings back LBD, hope to see it happen.
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1) It has to do with having more choices in a17 to progress my base vs a16. The only way to get concrete in a16 was to level construction tools to 40, buy the perk, and make it. In a17 there are 4 ways I can get concrete, hence the freedom to choose how I get it.

2) You are 100% correct. However if it was 2 days before horde night and I was already at 35 construction tools, I HAD to have it if I could get it and I knew I could get it. My own personal problem. A17 took away the need I felt to grind that up because I have options now to choose between that I just didn't have previously. While the increased availability of concrete has nothing to do with perks, it is related to progressing your base. If the other 3 methods were available in a16, that would have fixed that particular issue as well.

3) I was responding to Jax's statement about what we "lost" with losing LBD with the specific example of mining that he used. I don't find the x number of hits with a pickaxe in order to level mining tools a loss of anything. A16 you did x number of hits and spent a point. A17 you spend a point, while only having to mine when you need mats from mining. While some people may feel a sense of loss due to not need x amount of hits with a mining tool before spending the point, I don't at all. I feel I gained the ability to mine and eventually mine more and more effectively without needing to grind mining tools to get there. This is strictly my opinion, but when someone says "we lost" "we gained nothing" I feel that person is saying that they are speaking for "us". I gained and I lost nothing of any importance to me. His statement was made as a general statement of fact, while it is indeed only an opinion and one not shared by everyone.

4) Agreed. I just hope that anything but another complete redo happens, because all the complaints here and on the steam forums due to the time that alpha is taking gets painful to skim over. If they can make some small to medium amount of changes that makes more people happy or at least content, I am all for it.

Any game that I get thousands of hours of entertainment from I WANT to have a large, vibrant, passionate community. I enjoy being able to give feedback. But I also respect that how the developers' envision the final game is how it should be. It is their work, lost family time, and creativity that makes the game possible.

 
Remove perks entirely, keep skills, make skills increase ONLY by doing, bring back books, keep other avenues of achievable book skills, done.

...not rocket science, and everyone wins

 
Remove perks entirely, keep skills, make skills increase ONLY by doing, bring back books, keep other avenues of achievable book skills, done.
...not rocket science, and everyone wins
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So how about forge, concrete, other workstations, steel, etc.? Books only? I definitely would hate that, lol. Way more rng than I like, although that would significantly increase replayability. The parts I most disliked about a16's system was perks tied to an arbitrary tool level and that some LBD skills could only effectively be leveled by asinine means.

 
And Kickz is doing a replay of Alpha 8.8 just because he can lol. That tells me there is something very broken in A17.
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And after I just wanted to briefly see how A12 would run "the performance is so bad because it's" a voxel game, I actually got stuck on that version, and even started modding it. So much better in pretty much every relevant way. The performance is brilliant, and the atmosphere actually that of a zombie apocalypse. Lots of features missing, particularly quests and skills and workstations, but... It's so much more fun than A17.
 
So how about forge, concrete, other workstations, steel, etc.? Books only? I definitely would hate that, lol. Way more rng than I like, although that would significantly increase replayability. The parts I most disliked about a16's system was perks tied to an arbitrary tool level and that some LBD skills could only effectively be leveled by asinine means.
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Books, but not only. As you mentioned before, there are plenty of other ways to achieve those skills. Keep them, like I said.

 
So how about forge, concrete, other workstations, steel, etc.? Books only? I definitely would hate that, lol. Way more rng than I like, although that would significantly increase replayability.
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Rng is perfectly adjustable.

-They can make them more specific than they were - so that the schematic can spawn in specific POIs, with the RWG rng layer, but partially in the player control.

-They can add another rng layer in its spawn chance within its POIs and at the same time ensure that enough books will spawn throughout the map.

-They can add more schematic/book parts required or unique materials with variable chances in order to adjust the end rng chance further.

-They can gate the books/schematic containers behind radiation etc zones and other various mechanics and triggers, Left4Dead-style, which will ensure that the player won't be able to get them too soon.

-They can always ensure the player gets something through semi-rng quests triggers and rewards.

 
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Definitely would be a major downgrade for me personally. If searching poi's is the major way to progress and the major way to obtain every milestone in the game, I don't even know if I would find that playable. I like all aspects of the game. If I wanted to play a dungeon crawler, many many different games do it better.

 
Definitely would be a major downgrade for me personally. If searching poi's is the major way to progress and the major way to obtain every milestone in the game, I don't even know if I would find that playable. I like all aspects of the game. If I wanted to play a dungeon crawler, many many different games do it better.
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There can always be alternative ways and none said anything about *every* milestone but...

You are saying that you like all aspects of the game, but you seem to dislike one of the largest parts of the game, RWG/exploration and consider the game unplayable if progression requires it? Do elaborate please.

Also dungeon crawlers are a completely different thing - that is not what dungeon crawlers are like. If you got it confused with the term they so heart-wrenchingly use which is "dungeon POIs", that's only a euphemism for "linear-ish layout & some traps", but as long as the loot is not at a specific point of the layout there is absolutely no similarity at all with "dungeon crawling".

 
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I don't dislike looting poi's. I enjoy them in moderation. But if all workstations and technology upgrades are primarily obtained from exploring and looting poi's, that would be completely boring to me.

I don't want to slog through poi after poi after poi after poi after poi after poi trying to get the forge book or the wrench book or whatever. I much prefer being able to focus on the survival tasks I find most pressing that day, and have those tasks change day by day. And still not be locked out of progression.

Whether it be looting, exploring and hunting, building, mining, gardening, crafting a vehicle, or even a day off driving around looking at the scenery, I enjoy having the freedom to fill my days as I see fit after assessing my current needs. I can still progress however I need to regardless of which survival task I choose (except for the day off lol).

I wouldn't enjoy slogging through endless poi's for days and days any more than I would mining or building or anything else for days and days. I enjoy doing DIFFERENT things.

And if you follow the "linear-ish layout and some traps" that ends with several of the good loot crates at the end in the new poi's, it is similar enough to a dungeon crawler to me.... what with there being a linear-ish layout, traps, bad guys to kill along the way, and good loot at the end.

 
Not to be a butt, but... do you dislike reading the parts of people's posts that counter your argument, particularly the part that talks about alternative methods beyond rwg, that you yourself, talked about in previous posts?

:)

 
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