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There is. One makes logical sense, the other is bizarrely abstract.


Disagree. Right now in my play-through I have Perception 7. I have never once fired a Pistol in this game, yet I could accumulate 4 skill points and place all of them straight into Gunslinger and become a Pistol master instantly. In A16, I could NOT do this without using a Pistol a LOT.
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Which players tended to hate. And like bout the a17 system (speaking for myself here). If i have earned the points im free to spend them on whatever i like. Freedom. As i said before, i dont care i have not earned the points with doing something specific and spend them on something else.

Cheers

 
There is. One makes logical sense, the other is bizarrely abstract.


Disagree. Right now in my play-through I have Perception 7. I have never once fired a Pistol in this game, yet I could accumulate 4 skill points and place all of them straight into Gunslinger and become a Pistol master instantly. In A16, I could NOT do this without using a Pistol a LOT.
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If you have never used a pistol in this game, WHY would you put skill points into gunslinger and become a pistol master? If you have perception 7 you have come across several pistols. Obviously you don't like using them. Just... don't do it??

There are lots of things in game and irl that I COULD do. I just don't do them if I have no interest or need. I guess I just don't understand why the fact that it is possible to do something useless to you matters.

In a16 I could afk in cactus to level armor, turn all cloth into bandages to spam use to level medicine, sit naked in the snow eating meat stew to max my health... lots of fairly useful but still boring and bizarre things were possible. I didn't do them because I play to have fun it was not worth it to me.

Most if not all games have ways you can do bizarre unnatural things to get benefits in-game. I don't know if that can be eliminated.

I didn't mind a16's progression system but prefer a17.

 
Ok, but that looks to me simply the difference between playing the game more mining or scavenging oriented. What she described is hardly "running around and killing zombies" but practically the job description of "scavenger"
Saying that the "scavenger" oriented gameplay should not be part of survival is, well, quite a radical view on the game and probably not what you really meant.
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I didn't say scavenging shouldn't be part of the game but it's clearly the part with the highest risk of not surviving. Therefore, one would assume with a realistic course of the game that one makes only as much use of it as absolutely necessary. Of course, that's not what the players do. They go to the POIs because they just enjoy it.

You don't have to take that too seriously, but I think it is funny when people tell you it's a survival game and then happily run into the arms of the zombies that should be the main threat in this game. :)

 
Which players tended to hate.
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Well the massive number of posts on the subject make me feel the opposite.

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If you have never used a pistol in this game, WHY would you put skill points into gunslinger and become a pistol master? If you have perception 7 you have come across several pistols. Obviously you don't like using them. Just... don't do it??.
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Does the reason matter?

I just found a Magnum?

I suddenly want to conserve my ammo and 9mm is the cheapest to make?

Someone just told me Gunslinger was an OP perk?

Whatever.

 
Which players tended to hate. And like bout the a17 system (speaking for myself here). If i have earned the points im free to spend them on whatever i like. Freedom. As i said before, i dont care i have not earned the points with doing something specific and spend them on something else.
Cheers
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This is the cognitive dissonance I just cannot reconcile in my head. Everyone is toting "freedom" in A17 system (including Gazz, Roland, others) and in the next sentence/paragraph also expousing the benefits of level and attribute gating.

In this context, I guess everyone has a dramatic difference in opinion as to the word "freedom".

 
Yea that is technically true. But you're taking my post too 1-dimensionally which seems all too common in debates like these. I think this is why my points are not being understood. Perhaps I haven't done a good job explaining, but I think I have. If I have to write a book to explain my POV then something is wrong lol
What about Olympic swimmer? What about farming? What about bartering? Just to name a couple more that definitely don't get immediate benefits from the attribute above it. Maybe mining wasn't the best example as such. These other are better examples.
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Those have no direct benefits but fit the semi class system perfectly (which i like). You get smarter -> you can outsmart a trader (better barter). You get healthier -> you can swim longer and hold your breath longer. etc

Cheers

 
Well the massive number of posts on the subject make me feel the opposite.
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There are more than enough posts stating they hated the grind that came with it. Including me.

Even Cirion came to that conclusion eventually.

Cheers

 
There are more than enough posts stating they hated the grind that came with it. Including me.
Even Cirion came to that conclusion eventually.

Cheers
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Fair enough, but should we just ignore all the people who now don't like this system?

Shouldn't we at least attempt to make EVERYONE happy (80-90%+)? I just get the impression that we're going full speed ahead now, and screw everyone else.

That being said, I do agree they should not spend a long time doing a COMPLETE re-work of the system if its gonna take a yr. The show must go on, absolutely agreed, so at this point, I say take what we do have and work on that rather than start over again. I think we all agree that we all want the content to be finished, so I wouldn't want 6 months of effort on a new system.

At the end of the day, it's certainly their game.

Meh, maybe the better option is indeed just continue to add options to the game and make it easier and easier to mod rather than worry about pleasing everyone. Because there is always gonna be dissenters. If they do remake the system again, you and I might be now happy, but now there will be a new guy coming out of the woodwork who hates it. lol sighh

 
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Fair enough, but should we just ignore all the people who now don't like this system?
Shouldn't we at least attempt to make EVERYONE happy (80-90%+)? I just get the impression that we're going full speed ahead now, and screw everyone else.

That being said, I do agree they should not spend a long time doing a COMPLETE re-work of the system if its gonna take a yr. The show must go on, absolutely agreed, so at this point, I say take what we do have and work on that rather than start over again. I think we all agree that we all want the content to be finished, so I wouldn't want 6 months of effort on a new system.
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Im not for ignoring anything. But should we ignore all the people that are actually liking it? Should only the voices that hate it be heard?

Im not trying to convince anyone to love it. Im just marking the record why i like it. Some peepz who dont like seem to want to make their cases stronger by ridiculing the arguments that peepz that like it have. Or try to convince them they should hate it. Not talking about you though.

Thats all.

Cheers

 
what the .... i thought this thread was about declining twitch views and i was gonna beg ppl to watch my videos so i can get a million subs and views but looks like it derailed into another hate fest for a17 lolz

but yeah pls view and like my videos

 
Fair enough, but should we just ignore all the people who now don't like this system?
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Nobody is being ignored. There have been lots of changes since 17.0 and there are likely going to be more. Also, not obeying the will of the complainers is not the same thing as ignoring them. Their desires for LBD have been heard and considered. Time will tell whether TFP decides to make compromises in that direction or not. But they haven't ignored those requests.

I understand that speeding through the progression and enjoying a system where you get better at something by doing that action are two separate issues. I know that there is enjoyment and rewarding feelings from seeing the skills progress through whatever skill you are practicing. I would not be opposed to a return of that system. I am not defending the new system at the expense of the old whatever you might believe. I can happily play organically under both systems.

My defensive stance has consistently been that the new system is also a legitimate and fun system for many people just as the last system was. I disagree strongly that the game is now predetermined and linear and I see the style of play that would lead to always doing the same exact things at the exact same time and exact same level as being extreme and not indicative of the majority of players. I understand that any system is not going to be fun for some but fun for others.

I do understand what you mean by being able to get started on improvement in specific skills from Day 1 by seeing that skill bar start progressing as you performed those actions. The difference that I see is that with LBD you are spending the xp as you earn it. You loot and earn xp and it gets dumped immediately into the looting skill. In the current system you are looting and you gain xp into a central pool until it culminates into a point that can then be spent on....whatever you want. Some see the immediate and automatic spending of the xp in the specific area as more fun and others see the saving up of the xp and conversion of it into a point that can be spent however they wish as more fun. Others are happy with both.

Maybe it isn't that people aren't understanding you. Maybe they do understand and they STILL find their fun in an alternate fashion. The problem with some of the complainers is they are under the misguided opinion that those who don't believe as they do must be 1) stupid 2) fanbois 3) lazy 4) unable to understand the positive aspects of LBD 5) All of the above.

Again, I wouldn't be upset in the least if they added the skills back in and made them LBD. I would be overjoyed to not have to mod out the level gates. I'm not fighting against those ideas. I'm pushing back against the narrative being pushed that the entire playerbase is against A17 and that the game is going down the tubes because of A17.

 
There are more than enough posts stating they hated the grind that came with it. Including me.
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A16 never felt like a grind to me. I just did what I needed to do in the game organically and hardly even noticed Level ups and experience. It just all clicked (apart from the odd weird one like Armour, but that could easily have been tweaked). IN A17, yup it's grind because I am always thinking....I need a vehicle, 2 levels away...let's go out and do the most efficient XP gain yo get there asap, even if it's a task I do not currently feel I need to do; it's just more efficient. Now that is a grind.

You get smarter -> you can outsmart a trader (better barter). You get healthier -> you can swim longer and hold your breath longer. etc
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But how do I get smarter? I get smarter by hitting rocks / killing zombies / opening trash bags / etc. Parp.

 
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@Roland: No doubt it's a personal preference issue... some people like to earn perks/skills by doing, others like to buy them. That's not in question (I don't think);

*I* believe the issue is the /reasoning/ for the change; or at least the given reasoning.

"It allows for more and different play styles".

That's total bullpoop, and it's a lie that needs to stop.

Do that, and just say "We went this route, we ain't changing" without making the boldfaced LIE that it offers more than the previous, and these arguments will simmer down. I pinky promise.

Now, if you want to debate whether or not it allows for more, I'm happy to oblige, but I promise you, I'll win. =)

 
A16 never felt like a grind to me. I just did what I needed to do in the game organically and hardly even noticed Level ups and experience. It just all clicked (apart from the odd weird one like Armour, but that could easily have been tweaked). IN A17, yup it's grind because I am always thinking....I need a vehicle, 2 levels away...let's go out and do the most efficient XP gain yo get there asap, even if it's a task I do not currently feel I need to do; it's just more efficient. Now that is a grind.




But how do I get smarter? I get smarter by hitting rocks / killing zombies / opening trash bags / etc. Parp.
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Maybe its because i play the other way around. When i have points to spend i will decide what i need (can afford) at that moment. No efficient i need this and that now and how to get to points for it. If my character has evolved by spending my points and its good enough to unlock a vehicle i will if i choose too (or not, choices are still there). Im not working towards it. But i can imagine if you play like that it feels grindy (but tbh thats a choice).

Cheers

 
By spending points on intellect obviously.
Cheers
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lul, you played right into his argument. Wait for it. Something tells me you did it on purpose though. You two go round and round with everyone lol.

 
lul, you played right into his argument. Wait for it. Something tells me you did it on purpose though. You two go round and round with everyone lol.
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The difference between us is, that i dont mind gathering points with whatever and spending them on whatever (i like it even, always have said this). He does. There is no winning or losing here. Its as simple as he cant understand why i not hate that (like it) and i can understand why he hates it. But i will not start to hate it because he does. Easy peasy.

Cheers

-edit- what im actually waiting for is for him to start calling me lazy or an idiot or a player that has not played the game enough or not started over enough, but thats another (sad) story.

 
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Nobody is being ignored.
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-> Made good case that current system is not even meeting the goals of devs (Specialization).

-> Made good case that current system is not as "free" as people think the word freedom means

-> Made good case that in current system you CAN (and many people do) master a single skill in a few days to a week (usually combat) so if Dev's goal is for this NOT to happen, they have failed


I am not necessarily saying any of the three above should be changed or trying to impose my will (I think they should) but there is no acknowledgement of said points. I am saying the dev's goals seem inconsistent.That is all I am saying. To be sure that does kinda sound like I want them to change (and I do), but primarily I am just pointing out logical fallacies.

It's my INTJ brain in action again. Lol.

My defensive stance has consistently been that the new system is also a legitimate and fun system for many people just as the last system was. I disagree strongly that the game is now predetermined and linear and I see the style of play that would lead to always doing the same exact things at the exact same time and exact same level as being extreme and not indicative of the majority of players. I understand that any system is not going to be fun for some but fun for others.
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Given that both mining and combat are now the only two ways to play to get EXP, people are only going to specialize in one or the other. Usually. Since everything is now under one exp pool, EXP is king since it buys EVERYTHING. You are right though no one is FORCING you to do that. I agree with that. However the average player is gonna be looking at skills be like..."Hey, I'd like to get X perk... OK I need 10 level ups... OK I need/want a bunch of EXP.... what to do? Zombie killing? OK!!"

Plus the fact that only ZOMBIE EXP is shared in a group. Guess what that will do when in a group? Encourage people to KILL ZOMBIES only for exp.

I have seen your other posts though that you wanna do away with EXP entirely. So I know I'm not entirely barking up the wrong tree here. I am (personally) bored though with A17 since it either feels like Call of Duty zombies or mining simulator 2019. I know many people love CoD though (after it all remains one of the most popular games of all time). It's just not my cup of tea.

Maybe it isn't that people aren't understanding you. Maybe they do understand and they STILL find their fun in an alternate fashion. The problem with some of the complainers is they are under the misguided opinion that those who don't believe as they do must be 1) stupid 2) fanbois 3) lazy 4) unable to understand the positive aspects of LBD 5) All of the above.
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See my points mentioned at the start of my post. I have yet to see good refutation. And I did not even use the word LBD once in my post (except here) :)

I am in no way arguing people find fun in different ways. What I am saying is that people are kidding themselves if they think there is freedom in this system or that it changes anything about meta grinding or the time to grind things...etc... the only reason people can not get forges by day 4 now is because of the level gates in INT. remove that and now you can. So, nothing has changed overall.

 
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Sorry, but no.
There will always be a "most efficient path" to play no matter what system is used. In A16 there was a most efficient way to play, in A17 there is a most efficient path to play. There will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, be a "meta", a most efficient path to play.

The difference is, back in A16, the meta and most efficient path was muddy, not clear, even taking the "most efficient way to play", you still didn't know when you'd get the minibike book, even if you played the same way every time for example. In addition, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have mentioned previously that many skills are deadlocked behind spending 23 points (or 23 level ups) before you can master it.
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It all depends what your goals are in the game. If your goal is to attain a certain skill by a certain day, perhaps there is only one "efficient" path. When I play, I usually only plan my activities just a few steps ahead and try to play organically.

 
It all depends what your goals are in the game. If your goal is to attain a certain skill by a certain day, perhaps there is only one "efficient" path. When I play, I usually only plan my activities just a few steps ahead and try to play organically.
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With more thought, I am actually surprised organic players enjoy the exp system at all (I guess that explains why Roland does not like it?)

There is one or two guys on the steam forums that only will play the really older alphas like 10 where EXP was not even a thing. As they wanna build from day 1. Now THAT'S freedom, even more so than the systems I have proposed in a few threads.

 
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