PC Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

You have here. Me. And I have lots of friends that love it too. My wife hated 7 days to die. Now I got her to play every sat. So now what.
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How is this relevant information? No sarcasm intended, honestly.

Just offering up that your wife now plays a game with no reasoning why is useless knowledge. We could take that as: Ok, cool, so casual gamers will play it now... for how long? or Yes! A17 is wayyyy better now because a top 7DTD youtuber's wife likes it better. or Yep, that proves it, A17 catered to casuals and ruined the game.

It's all subjective as to how your statement is perceived by the reader at this point, you've added no context.

 
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Except it is true, you might be a great example. I have seen you state a few times you arent even playing it.

I was the same, I thought the system was fine at first. Then after several playthroughs, I cant even force myself to keep playing, though I try. It's like the things that made the game amazing were replaced with systems that make it bland in comparison.

With that in mind I know they arent done with it. In the back of my mind I am hoping they pull a miracle out of their butts, and more mods, legendary gear, bandits, making RWG work again, balance adjustments, ect will somehow bring things back to where its as good as it was. Part of me doubts that these additions will do it though.

 
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How is this relevant information? No sarcasm intended, honestly.
Just offering up that your wife now plays a game with no reasoning why is useless knowledge. We could take that as: Ok, cool, so casual gamers will play it now... for how long? or Yes! A17 is wayyyy better now because a top 7DTD youtuber's wife likes it better. or Yep, that proves it, A17 catered to casuals and ruined the game.

It's all subjective as to how your statement is perceived by the reader at this point, you've added no context.
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The guy said he never met anyone that liked alpha 17. I'm just letting him know he has, me.

So casuals dont count huh? Only thinking of yourself I see? Cool. Well I'm not a casual but I want everyone to enjoy this awesome game. Glad to know where you stand.

 
The guy said he never met anyone that liked alpha 17. I'm just letting him know he has, me.
So casuals dont count huh? Only thinking of yourself I see? Cool. Well I'm not a casual but I want everyone to enjoy this awesome game. Glad to know where you stand.
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LMAO, you really took my statement of examples on how your statement could have been perceived as my personal opinion of casuals....

That's kind of sad Kage

 
The reason why Certain People claim that the A17 skill system offers more freedom is that it objectively does.
In A16 you would have skill points but be stuck with them until you grind up the LBD construction or whatever skill to the required level, repeating a very specific action over and over. (opposite of freedom of choice)

In A17 you buy the attributes/perks you want and you would have multiple ways of progressing towards them.

A total of three crafting perks are level gated but only a single (and non-essential) one requires more than player level 100 out of 300 so that's not really punishing.

Despite some wild claims we know that not everyone picks the same perks. Not everyone feels the need to go deeply into intellect or any other attribute you care to name.

The issue with rose (or otherwise) tinted glasses is that they block certain wavelenghts of light so that you can not see as much. That's how tinted glass works.
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Although I haven't yet formed an opinion on the original post, this statement is one I have a strong opinion on... you're comparing the a17 perk system to a16's. That's like putting a noose on someone and leaving them dangling (a16) and then putting a wobbly stool underneath (a17) and saying "see? It's better!" Technically is, sure, but still an uncomfortable position to be in. =)

 
Totally irrelevant. You don't like my videos that's fine. But numbers are where they were 3 months into16.4. That's all I'm saying.
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Didn't say I don't like your videos. I said I've been watching them for a long time. Basically all of them, no matter the game. What I understand is your viewership is watching not just for the game, but because they simply like watching you. The people that rushed in to see what was new are gone, and what are left are fans. I already knew your horde night video was going to be the same, but I watched up until that point because I like your videos. But, when that time came, I turned it off because it's old.... and it's not just your videos. I'm saying this is the case for all content of this game lately.

Now you cannot tell me that since A16 your overall viewership has not increased. I know as a partner myself, it very well has. So, if your viewership is the same as back then, there indeed is a problem. I'm probably subbed to 10 7D2D players. It was their staple all throughout A16. But now, in A17, they just don't play as much. They've moved on to several other games instead... looking for some kind of replacement to fill in that void. They post a few videos with each update, tweaking their new settings, hoping for just a glimmer of excitement. While these numbers you speak of still may apply to you, even though I think they are skewed like I said, you are only one person and should not base your conclusions that the overall viewership of 7D2D content is down because it should be at this time on solely your own experience.

 
I have noticed no dropoff in YouTube videos or twitch streaming that's any different from 16.4.
I think we might have new streamers, or people with short memories, that didnt expect such a dropoff 3 months after a major release.

I have been doing this game through 2013, alpha 1, non stop coverage. This is the norm. Major release, couple months later it drops off. Nothing new here. Has very little to do with alpha 17. This is confirmation bias for sure. Some people dont like alpha 17 and see this dropoff as proof no one likes it, when it's just the norm. I would argue it probably has more to do with the garbage going on with the console version more than anything. I still get tons of comments and questions about the console version.
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Now I have an opinion. Someone with a decent sized representative sample, who happens to be a numbers guy, has weighed in on the OP. Can't help but agree with him, Like him, hate him, he's gonna be the expert on this one.

 
LMAO, you really took my statement of examples on how your statement could have been perceived as my personal opinion of casuals....
That's kind of sad Kage
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Well to be fair is that not what you meant? I'm really curious.

Didnt you say my alpha 17 catered to casuals and ruined the game? If I'm missing something let me know.

Would you not have the fun pimps ignore casuals and just make the game your way?

If so cant we have both? Or is that impossible?

 
How is this relevant information? No sarcasm intended, honestly.
Just offering up that your wife now plays a game with no reasoning why is useless knowledge. We could take that as: Ok, cool, so casual gamers will play it now... for how long? or Yes! A17 is wayyyy better now because a top 7DTD youtuber's wife likes it better. or Yep, that proves it, A17 catered to casuals and ruined the game.

It's all subjective as to how your statement is perceived by the reader at this point, you've added no context.
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Its not like a streamer is gonna say, "Ya a17 sucks" on the forum. Who would go watch him play after that. Does Kage even play the game Vanilla, or heavily modded? Thinking a heavily modded version of the game is great is a whole nother animal.

 
It's a useful indicator.
A lot of feedback is so unspecific that this is all you can take from it anyway.

Then there is the over the top detailed feedback which is specific but from maybe 3 rabid fans that are in no way representative of the player base.

It's complicated. ;)
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Then it comes down to y'all only being able to take feedback from the articulate, which is ALSO a flawed method. =)

A17's perk system sucks. The FACT that almost every thread complaining about a17, even if it doesn't originally mention the perk system, devolves into this argument should be eye opening, imo.

 
Well to be fair is that not what you meant? I'm really curious.
Didnt you say my alpha 17 catered to casuals and ruined the game? If I'm missing something let me know.

Would you not have the fun pimps ignore casuals and just make the game your way?

If so cant we have both? Or is that impossible?
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Honestly, no, that is not what I meant. I understand that you aren't on the forums daily, but that is literally how a few (a lot?) of people would have taken your statement.

I did not say your A17 catered to casuals, I said that is one possible way your statement could have been perceived.

I would not have TFP just cater to me, I have gone on record here multiple times saying that I enjoy A17, I just enjoyed the progression and RNG of A16 more.

We can't have it both ways because TFP have already gone on record saying the perk system is here to stay. Doesn't mean I won't play the game. It is still enjoyable, just less enjoyable to me.

 
Its not like a streamer is gonna say, "Ya a17 sucks" on the forum. Who would go watch him play after that. Does Kage even play the game Vanilla, or heavily modded? Thinking a heavily modded version of the game is great is a whole nother animal.
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...you haven't met Capp00 then. At least, I'm pretty sure it was him. Could be wrong on this one, I get their names confused because I'm not a viewer, but one of them was railing against the game, while being on the official stream team.

 
...you haven't met Capp00 then. At least, I'm pretty sure it was him. Could be wrong on this one, I get their names confused because I'm not a viewer, but one of them was railing against the game, while being on the official stream team.
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Glock9 had a meltdown in one of his videos over the state of A17 and then posted a message saying he is going to take sometime away from 7DTD.

 
Didn't say I don't like your videos. I said I've been watching them for a long time. Basically all of them, no matter the game. What I understand is your viewership is watching not just for the game, but because they simply like watching you. The people that rushed in to see what was new are gone, and what are left are fans. I already knew your horde night video was going to be the same, but I watched up until that point because I like your videos. But, when that time came, I turned it off because it's old.... and it's not just your videos. I'm saying this is the case for all content of this game lately.Now you cannot tell me that since A16 your overall viewership has not increased. I know as a partner myself, it very well has. So, if your viewership is the same as back then, there indeed is a problem. I'm probably subbed to 10 7D2D players. It was their staple all throughout A16. But now, in A17, they just don't play as much. They've moved on to several other games instead... looking for some kind of replacement to fill in that void. They post a few videos with each update, tweaking their new settings, hoping for just a glimmer of excitement. While these numbers you speak of still may apply to you, even though I think they are skewed like I said, you are only one person and should not base your conclusions that the overall viewership of 7D2D content is down because it should be at this time on solely your own experience.
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That's not how YouTube works. Everytime the game updates views are a little less than the years before. They have been dropping a little from year to year, they peaked at the console release. If anything this year is up a bit from 16.4. Growth figures a little into it.

Honestly I think part of the good numbers is because others have stopped, or done less videos. People cant watch them so they go to someone else.

Some people watch just for me I guess. And growth has an effect. But I'm not seeing the dropoff people are talking about. If alpha 17 was that bad on a global level, not just the .001% of the people on the forums complaining, I'd feel it. Trust me.

For the record I dont mean the forum people passion and feelings on 17 dont matter, of course they do. Just saying most of the people playing a17 dont come to forums and never even think about them.

 
What about sticking to your guns and following your vision? If you guys really are the majority isn’t it kind of admirable for a small plucky indie studio to stay true to what they want for the game instead of selling out to the cash grab represented by giving in to the masses?

If what you say is true about most players abandoning the game, that makes this a niche title that appeals to a small but devoted segment of the gaming community.

TFP never turned their game into a Battle Royale game or even emphasized PVP despite pressure from the majority. They’ve been called fools for ignoring the much more lucrative PVP market and catering to SP and PVE players. But their vision was for a SP or co-op experience and they have stuck to their guns.

The fact of the matter is that the devs chose the A17 design over the A16 design because they like it better and it fits their original plans for the game better. They actually do find it fun and rewarding even in its unfinished state.

If your mind is boggled by that, consider that not everyone has your set of preferences or your tastes. Not everyone plays the game the same way as you and nobody likes others to dictate to them how they should play the game even if it is the majority telling a developer how they should design their game.

TFP has always done things their way and they will continue to do so. Hang on or lets go but regardless the ride continues either way.

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Typically if developers have this attitude, they don't release in early access, or at least should refrain from doing so. If all the devs want is bug testers instead of people with actual opinions about gameplay and features, then the responsible thing to do is release a game in beta, not alpha.

You can say 'oh but people want different things'...but you and I, and everybody who has been reading this forum since alpha 12 or so (I wasn't around before that) has to admit that this particular alpha has sparked the most complaints, and it is typically about the same things.

During past few alphas, the biggest gripes I ever recall on this forum were the minibikes disappearing; the way zombies would spawn right next to you while you were fighting; and spam crafting. If anyone has asked for something absurd, like battle royale, it's for sure an extreme minority of the player base.

Now the main complaint is that the game isn't fun anymore. Wow.

And why isn't it fun anymore? Because of various core things implemented in A17, whether it's the perks, or the ai (which fair enough is being worked on), or the lack of RNG, or the new stamina system, or features being pulled or streamlined too much. These same complaints are being brought up again and again and again by lots of different people. There are only a handful of people saying they are actually happy, and some of them appear to be staff. Staff who are sometimes quite dismissive, and act as if complaints are a personal attack from haters, or whiners, instead of well thought out petitions from dedicated fans.

 
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...you haven't met Capp00 then. At least, I'm pretty sure it was him. Could be wrong on this one, I get their names confused because I'm not a viewer, but one of them was railing against the game, while being on the official stream team.
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I can tell you guys dont watch me lol. I complain about stuff. Quite often. I just think the great outweighs the good and i have faith tfp will work on issues I have.

Stuff I have bitched about

Perks limitations

Lag

Bullet sponge irradiated.

Iron tools at 20, madmole was in my stream when I first found out and freaked about it.

Trader 17.2 nerf.

Really people 😁

Edit this was more for the guy you quoted. Sorry about that lol

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Honestly, no, that is not what I meant. I understand that you aren't on the forums daily, but that is literally how a few (a lot?) of people would have taken your statement.
I did not say your A17 catered to casuals, I said that is one possible way your statement could have been perceived.

I would not have TFP just cater to me, I have gone on record here multiple times saying that I enjoy A17, I just enjoyed the progression and RNG of A16 more.

We can't have it both ways because TFP have already gone on record saying the perk system is here to stay. Doesn't mean I won't play the game. It is still enjoyable, just less enjoyable to me.
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Ok, sorry about that. Must have misread you.

Just saying though alot of people love alpha 17. That was my only real point.

 
Started watching twitch fairly regularly back in late 2017 / early 2018. Im in SE Asia and mostly view in the morning (i'd say around 630pm US east coast) when getting ready for work or just chillin' on saturday morning with a cup of coffee. In early 2018, i recall seeing an average of 700ish people watching 7 days to die streams and that was pretty steady. That wouldve been around 9 months or so after the release of A16. Up until A17 launched, it was still in the 600-700 range occasionally dipping a bit lower.

Now, im seeing 450 range(?) most mornings and 7 days to die is much further down the list. I have nothing to gain by trying to create a story - If twitch viewership is a barometer, the interest in 7 days to die seems to have declined significantly since the waining days of A16

Having said all that (and being extremely bummed by A17.2 rwg and ongoing network problems preventing friends from connecting to my server), we (those who can eventually connect) still play and still have fun. Whatever game we end up getting, I just hope it finds a way to stay unique, fun and challenging.

 
Not to step on anyone's toes or anything, but I always look forward to a new 7 Days to Die episode by Game Society Pimps. You never know if Aaron and Emre are gonna suddenly turn against each other, and even when they are allies their arguments and fights are hilarious, lol.

Not to mention the glaring mistakes they consistently make add a whole 'nother level of entertainment. I'd love to join them in a series of streams while we're all drinking, and let their "incompetence" just add another level of difficulty and entertainment to the game. I could be their backwoods survival guru, and it ould be funny as hell if I punched 'em every time they did or said something stupid, lol.

"Here, drink this."

"What is it?"

"Grandpa's moonshine, it's great."

"I can't see!"

"That's because you're still using two eyes, dumbass." :D

 
Yep, the only thing wrong with A17 is RWG. Everything else is great. Truly the greatest alpha.
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Ha. Haha. Whaahahahaha :D

I mean... I am happy for you that you can enjoy it. I truely am and whoever says otherwise tries to put words in my mouth, but objectively, when looking at features and gameplay, A17 is worse than A16 or even A15. Obviously there are ppl who enjoy it/still enjoy it. But there are also ppl who enjoyed Atlas at release. Or No Mans Sky at release (I was one of them!) that doesn't mean that they are good games. Just that their flaws are just not as important to you.

A17 added loads of nice things like vehicles and ragdolls and way more pois as well as graphics, but it broke WAY more than those improvements could ever fix. RWG is only a minor part. A big one, but one that is acknowledged and is beeing worked on. Others that basically broke progression... will see us die on a hill :)

Maybe A18 undoes some of it, but I'm not holding my breath.

As I said before: its still a good game. It is just worse than A16, which means I don't have fun playing it, since I constantly think "this is what it did better, that is ni- damn another thing that worked perfectly is broken"

Disheartening to see there is no acknowledgement of the fact that a lot of players don't like the current perk system and there doesn't seem to be any plans to change them at all at this point or to at least see if the current system could be made better (not necessarily reversion to A16).
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"Dying on a hill."

60% ratings (it recovered a bit since original release 34%, but keep in mind that NO patch after initial release was lower than 70%) when before A17 it was about 80-85% (most negative reviews before A17 were ppl sick of waiting for a new alpha, not critizising the Alpha itself) and they say "its normal", whenin reality, ~65% was the absolute lowest it got with original release A15 with broken spawns, bugs all over and a complete unbalance of the game.

But they still sit there and try to see the good in it. Playernumbers have stayed more constant... because you released the first two patches within ~1 month, while before, a patch (at least A12 onwards, before that it was a way quicker updating schedule) took a few months.

So if you look at A17 as A17+A17.1+A17.2

compared to A16+A16.1+A16.2 you will see just how few players this alpha has actually attracted.

And as always I do not have pinpoint numbers, but most numbers come from:

https://steamcharts.com/app/251570

and steam storepage itself.

And yes Roland. Every few days I take a look at it if they finally overcame their pride and acknowledge that they f***ed up or not...

I still have hopes for this game...

 
A more complicated system where perk costs differ is less accessible and defeats the purpose of having "a build" where your attributes give you an overall impression of what you can do.The point economy of attributes is already pushing what "normal" players are willing to put up with. Requiring a 3D spreadsheet to plan your perks is fine for a numerophile mod. ;)
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Ahhh, so you have finally admitted that the A17 perk system is to cater to people preferring a simple system that is not very much in depth. That is not necessarily a wrong stance, and it does tend to appeal to the more casual crowd. That's not necessarily the wrong approach, not the approach I like, but now it makes sense.

Ok, you got me, I am an engineer and work with numbers all day. Guilty as charged. Lol.

That said, you don't HAVE to plan your perks (with either system), it's just helpful to do so. Also, you still are gonna need a spreadsheet to plan out your perks even with the current system, so let's be fair here.

I have to agree that the skill system that is better than everything we have ever come up with and that everyone likes would be best.
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This is a good start to perhaps open some discourse then. I'll have to give this some more thought perhaps. I have many ideas that would have to be fleshed out more though.

I agree with people here that have said that if there is roughly a 50/50 split on preference of the old system and A17, perhaps the way to please everyone is take what people liked from LBD and take what people liked from the A17 perk system and some how merge them. I have mentioned this in the past. I am not yet sure what this might look like. I think otherwise, there is just gonna be constant argument. Reversion to 16 is not the answer (as much as I'd personally prefer that), because then we'll just have the other 50% start coming with torches and pitchforks demanding going back to 17, and no progress will be made. All of us want progress to beta/release so that's not the answer.

Your posts do give me an idea of what people who like the A17 system want for perks, so I'll give this some thought and post some ideas later after I have time to ponder it. One idea though that I and a couple others had in the past is make it so some aspect of LBD applies to leveling up the attributes. However, whereas in LBD you only had one way to level up a skill (this is what people hated, and promoted targetted grinding), in this new approach you'd have multiple ways of LBD'ing the attributes, to avoid the feeling of needing to grind it. So increase the activities to level a skill from like 1 that it was before, to several. This makes sense anyway in the context of attributes which are by definition generalized and not specific, so that lends themselves to this approach.

 
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