PC Current state of class system
- Thread starter Shijune
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uncle.heavy
New member
Not a huge fan of the perk system tied to attributes as it is, neither do I require my tools of zombie doom to be equally perked-into.
But I ask myself what exactly is the point of killing faster in every single situation?
Actually, making not every weapon equally skillable under all circumstances adds tactical elements and makes choices more meaningful.
If it weren't that way, we'd have all Z hitpoints quintupled by A22 because every player inflicts maximum damage all the time anyway.
Untying weapons completely without adjusting for that - and as said, the current system is not my all-time favourite - creates a TWD scenario where you zap in for some zombie action and stay uneasily to see them decimated by the dozen by any toddler that happens to throw a fit.
I actually like that this is not just another dumb fps game.
But I ask myself what exactly is the point of killing faster in every single situation?
Actually, making not every weapon equally skillable under all circumstances adds tactical elements and makes choices more meaningful.
If it weren't that way, we'd have all Z hitpoints quintupled by A22 because every player inflicts maximum damage all the time anyway.
Untying weapons completely without adjusting for that - and as said, the current system is not my all-time favourite - creates a TWD scenario where you zap in for some zombie action and stay uneasily to see them decimated by the dozen by any toddler that happens to throw a fit.
I actually like that this is not just another dumb fps game.
Liesel Weppen
New member
Probably not during cleaning a poi, but very relevant during bloodmoon... which as i heard is a central aspect of the game?
My suggestion doesn't skill every weapon "equally". You skill for certain aspects of a weapon. It still doesn't make much sense to skill a hunting rifle for firerate. Or a shotgun for accuracy.
And since many people are arguing it doesn't the effect of skilled VS non-skilled isn't that huge anyway (but it is with the current system), i'm not talking about e.g. fortitude giving a massive 50% less recoil per level, but maybe 5% or 10%... has to be balanced of course. But it affects EVERY weapon. If your prefered weapon is a shotgun, recoil might be irrelevant for you. But if you want your pistols more stable, this would be the way to go.
And if you are a spray and pray player anyway, and therfore use a M60 you are probably not interested in perception which might give you headshot bonus. But you are not forced into skilling fortitude to max it.
Strange, I get a headshot damage of 270% for hunting rifle and 200% for an AK, both fairly freaking.
You must have some strange LBD version of the game
The issue with giving stats universal bonuses is it strips out most of the play style association with those stats, which removes a lot of the unique characteristics and just makes them numbers that go up.
And honestly this isn’t really an actual limitation, you can get top level crafting for both spears and ARs by level 21 if you leave the core stats at 7 and rush the weapon perks. The design is intended for players to make hybrid builds anyway, the only way someone is penalized for it is that they hit max a bit slower than if they’d gone with 1 stat but it more than makes up for it with far wider access to other perks. Ultimately I don’t really see the benefits to this over the fairly substantial downsides other than making mix and match slightly easier.
And honestly this isn’t really an actual limitation, you can get top level crafting for both spears and ARs by level 21 if you leave the core stats at 7 and rush the weapon perks. The design is intended for players to make hybrid builds anyway, the only way someone is penalized for it is that they hit max a bit slower than if they’d gone with 1 stat but it more than makes up for it with far wider access to other perks. Ultimately I don’t really see the benefits to this over the fairly substantial downsides other than making mix and match slightly easier.
Aldranon
New member
Just spit-balling...
Skill Trees:
-Making all skills into numerous "Tech Trees" (Stone axe - Iron axe) with some tech trees dependent on others.
-Some knowledge (experience) can be found unless the "Reverse Engineering tech tree" is explored.
-Anything complex made from steel has to be scavenged (modern weapons, firearms, cars). They can be repaired and improved, however (with a skill tree).
Attributes:
-Players start with a random number of points for each attribute (can manually be selected on lower difficulty levels).
-Each attribute can only be improved by extensive use only.
-Each attribute adds some type of bonus to the player and makes some tech trees easier to progress or can even allow high level tech trees to be unlocked.
Experience:
-Experience is applied to various skill trees from different sources.
-Can be gained by not dying. A small amount of experience can be gained each day, added to Survival skill trees.
-"Learn by Killing" should be limited to skill trees that involve killing.
-Exploring new places (clearing a POI) and finding new items should stimulate the mind so can be applied to knowledge skill trees.
OK that's all for now, my coffee has arrived!!
Edit: After drinking my coffee I spotted some spelling errors.
Edit2: The "Class" system is BS as is the current system. This allows for a far greater game [SIZE=14.6px]experience[/SIZE] and is a more accurate reflection of reality.
Skill Trees:
-Making all skills into numerous "Tech Trees" (Stone axe - Iron axe) with some tech trees dependent on others.
-Some knowledge (experience) can be found unless the "Reverse Engineering tech tree" is explored.
-Anything complex made from steel has to be scavenged (modern weapons, firearms, cars). They can be repaired and improved, however (with a skill tree).
Attributes:
-Players start with a random number of points for each attribute (can manually be selected on lower difficulty levels).
-Each attribute can only be improved by extensive use only.
-Each attribute adds some type of bonus to the player and makes some tech trees easier to progress or can even allow high level tech trees to be unlocked.
Experience:
-Experience is applied to various skill trees from different sources.
-Can be gained by not dying. A small amount of experience can be gained each day, added to Survival skill trees.
-"Learn by Killing" should be limited to skill trees that involve killing.
-Exploring new places (clearing a POI) and finding new items should stimulate the mind so can be applied to knowledge skill trees.
OK that's all for now, my coffee has arrived!!
Edit: After drinking my coffee I spotted some spelling errors.
Edit2: The "Class" system is BS as is the current system. This allows for a far greater game [SIZE=14.6px]experience[/SIZE] and is a more accurate reflection of reality.
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NukemDed
New member
i must not have explained myself correctly.
i didnt mean perking in doesnt matter or make a difference. i meant why choose to not use a weapon just because it is not a an uber god slayer.
current game i am on i am using a lvl 1 pistol when char is lvl 25ish.
it still drops them fine is all im saying.
of course ill probably up a weapon speciality later on, or a few. or none.
or that could be the point in this play thru. mabe the base defenses have to stand on their own....
i have discovered that a steel axe fs them up real good with maxed miner 69er when looting.
thats 0% ammo expenditure. in fact its an ammo profit situation
there you go. minimumed that out the park lol
i didnt mean perking in doesnt matter or make a difference. i meant why choose to not use a weapon just because it is not a an uber god slayer.
current game i am on i am using a lvl 1 pistol when char is lvl 25ish.
it still drops them fine is all im saying.
of course ill probably up a weapon speciality later on, or a few. or none.
or that could be the point in this play thru. mabe the base defenses have to stand on their own....
i have discovered that a steel axe fs them up real good with maxed miner 69er when looting.
thats 0% ammo expenditure. in fact its an ammo profit situation
there you go. minimumed that out the park lol
Liesel Weppen
New member
I'd be happy if people try to understand what i'm trying to tell instead of nitpicking on some random numbers.
And overall: You get 270% headshot damage for hunting rifle and 200% headsthot damage for an AK from ONE AND THE SAME skill? No? So you missed my point completely.
You must have some strange LBD version of the game
Nope, but i don't start the game or go through the xmls every time i write a meaningless number in a post here. For being not completely wrong, i look the skills up from an online skill calculator, which may use little outdated values...
What you call "characteristics", i call anoying predefined limitations.
I do MAKE the characteristics of a character by deciding where i spend the skillpoints. The characteristics should not be predefinied by someone else on how he thinks the game should be played.
Boidster
New member
I would like to play the game where this is the only way to gain experience. Where survival is the only goal. How you choose to survive - kill or avoid the Zs - is up to you. Probably the zombie loot drop would need to be tweaked upwards a bit to make fighting Zs more attractive. But is your inventory full from POI looting? Well, there's exactly zero reason to engage that mini-horde over there so best to avoid them. Just like in a Real Life™ zombie apocalypse.
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Aldranon
New member
I would be fine with that.
"Experience" in a survival situation is just training up muscle memory and learning what to do, and not to do. That all takes time.
With that you become confident in your abilities and in a subsequent crisis situation, your body is not being flooded with cortisol anymore, no longer causing your hands to shake and missing your target.
So three weeks into an apocalyptical situation would see you more alert, more accurate. more quite, more wise.
Or you died.
Roland
Moderator
I made a mod for this where you gain skill points after a 24 hour timer during which you survived. If you died then the timer reset. However, I did not update it for A19 and it lies broken by changes made to A19 code. I'm just not enough of a masochistic modder to be interested in fixing the mod with each alpha release. I'm happy to just wait for the 1.0 and then update it-- unless someone wants to take it over. I'm down with that too.
It does really change the feel of the game. though, when nothing earns any xp and you can do anything you want and you still progress as long as you don't die. Running away or fighting is equally valid and there definitely is no incentive to hunt and feast by farming zombie hordes.
It does really change the feel of the game. though, when nothing earns any xp and you can do anything you want and you still progress as long as you don't die. Running away or fighting is equally valid and there definitely is no incentive to hunt and feast by farming zombie hordes.
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Aldranon
New member
It wouldn't be me. My mod would delete your save files on death!
(Yes, I know you would make a backup somewhere, so it would search your entire system for saved files.)
THEN, you would play the best game you've ever done!
It automatically distracts from the issue. Without correct facts how can we make correct conclusions from the facts? Whether you get 170% more headshot damage for one weapon or only 35% is a hell of a difference.
Seems I did. I was distracted by some issue
. Seriously, I don't get the point. Why is it important that it is ONE AND THE SAME skill?Hundreds of RPG systems starting by the grandfather D&D have violated your rule and used class systems, and they are still popular.
It is a lot easier balancing skills/perks correctly in a class system than in a free choose-your-own-perks system. There are advantages and disadvantages for both.
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Yes, you do. But I’m referring to the characteristics of the trees themselves and the playstyles they represent. Those choices make it easy to pick a completely different way of play than other players in multiplayer or than your usual in singleplayer, which helps keep things fresher over time than one massive omni-tree or an LBD system.
Also, you still have the freedom to build how you like regardless, the current system is not stopping you.
it’s literally intended for players to get Every Skill by level cap, you’re just determining what order. And since the point costs only ratchet up with the later stat ranks, you can get whatever build you want fairly quickly without being meaningfully subjected to “predefined limitations”.
theFlu
Well-known member
I might not be Liesel, but... partly because they are. There's an attribute called Perception, and another called Agility. They're the same skill, except one applies to long barrels and long handles, while the other applies to short barrels and short handles.. it's not exactly the most intuitive design around those names.
I understand the process that lead us here, but the end result is still like pineapple on a pizza.
I myself twice suggested to TFP to change the names of the attributes to class names to no avail. So I agree on the names giving the wrong impression to newcomers. But we veterans should not be hoodwinked by names. And stealed against anything that sounds unrealistic, because gameplay trumps realism.
So perception generally is the class where you have great perception and know how to handle a sniper rifle. You can shoot a sniper rifle better (which leads to more effective headshots with that gun). But in this game this does not transfer to being better with pistols, doing great headshots (instead of merely pedestrain headshots) with pistols needs you to be agil, not perceptive.
No idea how that works in detail but I'm fine with it. I know RPGs where you can't even use a warhammer if you haven't learned the right skill or are the right class. Skills and perks are an approximation of abilities a character has. My real life personas rifle skill can't be adequately represented by a simple number.
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The issue i have with LBD is it provides no flexibility for players who have difficulty with certain mechanics.
“Learn by Killing” or in reality “Universal XP” allows for exp gained from one activity to subsidize other activities that the player may not prefer/has difficulty with or are harder to progress effectively in. If someone isn’t good at combat but is good at building and gathering, in a LBD system they’d be out of luck and would have to grind out combat skills, in a UX system they could use the exp from building and gathering to boost their combat abilities so their lack of skill doesn’t make fighting an unfun high-risk burden.
uncle.heavy
New member
Edit: TL;DR never mind; forum was acting up for me. When I started this there was not even a page 2, and I am not THAT slow a writer
No point to it any more.
I have heard people mention that.
But pursuing ever more massive fire rates is not the only protective action people take.
Some even delve into architecture to counter certain aspects of the game.
And is it not a good thing when people feel they should be able to pump out ever more?
As in, there is still room to improve in overall game proficiency before one is ready to turn all controls up to eleven.
Now, this is dependent on perspective, and this is mine:
it does skill every weapon equally. It may even make very little sense at all for some of them but every weapon is assigned the same profit, though they will respond with non-equal dps gains.
As the respective impact is broadened, so an overall gain to damage output would have to be expected because mostly any weapon found is instantly of more use to anyone.
I will have to expressly withdraw my assumption of maximum damage output for everyone at any time, though. Wow, was I ever off base!
I did not take into account the weapon-specific perk remaining with the "original" attribute.
Also, the cost of chasing attributes.
After all you are still tied to base attributes for weapon-specific skills, so no gain for Team Free Will or your skill point wallet in that respect.
And, you are still tied to base attributes for the generic bonuses. Say, I want that faster reload on my hunting rifle because I am a beast with that thing and do not care about any other weapon?
Oh, no, you cannot have that: perception - which you need for the weapon-specific skill - gives headshot bonus. Faster reload had been out-sourced to Fortitude. Faster aiming? Agility, second floor. You will have to multiclass heavily just to become somewhat proficient with one single weapon.
Right in there lies where I do not see the overall improvement; abolishing limits of choice - not everyone's, mind you; there seem to be several others out there chosing their weaponry based on whether I feel like using them and sometimes quality level - to introduce a different kind of choice limitation and giving it a different name.
Then again, to me, your approach feels much more organic because for example I always failed to see the perception requirements a spear asks for which a bow does not - and the other way around for agility.
No point to it any more.
Probably not during cleaning a poi, but very relevant during bloodmoon... which as i heard is a central aspect of the game?
I have heard people mention that.
But pursuing ever more massive fire rates is not the only protective action people take.
Some even delve into architecture to counter certain aspects of the game.
And is it not a good thing when people feel they should be able to pump out ever more?
As in, there is still room to improve in overall game proficiency before one is ready to turn all controls up to eleven.
Now, this is dependent on perspective, and this is mine:
it does skill every weapon equally. It may even make very little sense at all for some of them but every weapon is assigned the same profit, though they will respond with non-equal dps gains.
As the respective impact is broadened, so an overall gain to damage output would have to be expected because mostly any weapon found is instantly of more use to anyone.
I will have to expressly withdraw my assumption of maximum damage output for everyone at any time, though. Wow, was I ever off base!
I did not take into account the weapon-specific perk remaining with the "original" attribute.
Also, the cost of chasing attributes.
After all you are still tied to base attributes for weapon-specific skills, so no gain for Team Free Will or your skill point wallet in that respect.
And, you are still tied to base attributes for the generic bonuses. Say, I want that faster reload on my hunting rifle because I am a beast with that thing and do not care about any other weapon?
Oh, no, you cannot have that: perception - which you need for the weapon-specific skill - gives headshot bonus. Faster reload had been out-sourced to Fortitude. Faster aiming? Agility, second floor. You will have to multiclass heavily just to become somewhat proficient with one single weapon.
Right in there lies where I do not see the overall improvement; abolishing limits of choice - not everyone's, mind you; there seem to be several others out there chosing their weaponry based on whether I feel like using them and sometimes quality level - to introduce a different kind of choice limitation and giving it a different name.
Then again, to me, your approach feels much more organic because for example I always failed to see the perception requirements a spear asks for which a bow does not - and the other way around for agility.
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