PC Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[Rotor]

I did that, no unlocks via perks.  Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.

I didnt do anything, I just ignore traders.  Day 22 no wbench/furnace or chem station .  I do have 300 stone arrows, I am so good a killing chicken now, they are a better hunt that Zs .  I did get a  grilled meat mag on one of the supply drops..........but I havent found a grill for my campfire /shakesfists@RnGeezus.

 

[binf_shinana]

雑誌システムの最大の問題は、雑誌システムという枠が大きく用意されていたことそのものに収束するかもしれません。
必要以上に重要なシステムであるように見えてしまうことです。

現状、雑誌システムでできることは、銃スキルを集中的に取得し、より早く高Tier低品質の銃を作ることだけです（このメタは強力ですが、本当にそれしかできません）。

ほかはせいぜい、トレーダー禁止プレイをする際にロックピックスキルを取って作業台を作るくらいでしょう。
（他に、多少効率的になる程度ではなく、絶対に必要なクラフトスキルがあったら、誰か追記してください）

(google translation)

The biggest problem with the magazine system may come down to the very fact that the framework of the magazine system was so large.
This makes the system seem more important than it needs to be.

Currently, all you can do with the magazine system is focus on gun skills and make higher tier, lower quality guns faster (this meta is powerful, but that's really all you can do).

Other than that, the most you can do is take the lockpick skill and make a workbench when playing a game where traders are prohibited.
(If there are any other crafting skills that are not only slightly more efficient, but are absolutely necessary, please add them.)

 

[meganoth]

雑誌システムの最大の問題は、雑誌システムという枠が大きく用意されていたことそのものに収束するかもしれません。
必要以上に重要なシステムであるように見えてしまうことです。

現状、雑誌システムでできることは、銃スキルを集中的に取得し、より早く高Tier低品質の銃を作ることだけです（このメタは強力ですが、本当にそれしかできません）。

ほかはせいぜい、トレーダー禁止プレイをする際にロックピックスキルを取って作業台を作るくらいでしょう。
（他に、多少効率的になる程度ではなく、絶対に必要なクラフトスキルがあったら、誰か追記してください）

(google translation)

The biggest problem with the magazine system may come down to the very fact that the framework of the magazine system was so large.
This makes the system seem more important than it needs to be.

Currently, all you can do with the magazine system is focus on gun skills and make higher tier, lower quality guns faster (this meta is powerful, but that's really all you can do).

Other than that, the most you can do is take the lockpick skill and make a workbench when playing a game where traders are prohibited.
(If there are any other crafting skills that are not only slightly more efficient, but are absolutely necessary, please add them.)

Without trader I would need a point in vehicles. Not because I would fail without it, but because mid-game would be tedious without the comfort and range the vehicles provide.

 

[Kalen]

Without trader I would need a point in vehicles. Not because I would fail without it, but because mid-game would be tedious without the comfort and range the vehicles provide.

 I would imagine in a no trader play through, you'd also have to perk into trap making otherwise later game hordes are going to be problematic.

 

[7daysOfFun]

I don't object to the magazine-based learn-by-reading system... but in our next world together my buddy plans on only taking the magazines about farming and cooking and giving me everything else and just let me do all the crafting. Thinking about it, the skills points just give you better performance with whatever it is you got and help you find more parts for it in loot. It has no effects on crafting, like reducing ingredient cost or improving the stats. He figures he'll manage the farm, food, and mining all the resources, whilst I do everything else.

On the one hand this does seem simpler -- rather than me bothering him for the random things based on what he's perked into, I can just do it myself. And rather than figuring out what magazines go to whom and accidently reading the wrong one now and again, I just eat whatever magazine that isn't about farming or seeds.

I say eating the magazines, 'cos it's not like I give it to my buddy when I've finished reading it.

i solved this problem in the way, that i create a 10k map with lots of citys and traders

magazine are very cheap...so u drive from trader to trader and buy the magazines u want

in my actual map the trader mixing is "going a little crazy" in every city in the green i have 15-18traders (i have puttet the 3 combo trader in it), i the desert 10 per city in the desert 1 per city and snow 0 per city..wasted area i dont know, i havent visited yet

 

[Ianua]

I have a question. I played the A21 a few times and as the "base b!tch" I find that I am at a disadvantage on skilling up and finding magazines since I am not the one looting things. Of course my other players can bring me mags for the skills I need if they find them, but I don't get any bonus for finding mags since I am not the one looking for them. Obviously I do go out and loot a little, but in a typical game, my other 2 players would have looted everything close by the base. Any thoughts other than "get out and loot" since my toon tends to be a bit agoraphobic.  Looking forward to the new characters customization in A22

 

[Krougal]

I have a question. I played the A21 a few times and as the "base b!tch" I find that I am at a disadvantage on skilling up and finding magazines since I am not the one looting things. Of course my other players can bring me mags for the skills I need if they find them, but I don't get any bonus for finding mags since I am not the one looking for them. Obviously I do go out and loot a little, but in a typical game, my other 2 players would have looted everything close by the base. Any thoughts other than "get out and loot" since my toon tends to be a bit agoraphobic.  Looking forward to the new characters customization in A22

Yeah, this is really not a change conducive to the base @%$# or even multiplayer in general.

Maybe try having them drop markers at clusters of newstands & mailboxes in the urban areas and leaving them for you to just motorcycle out and loot to give you a better chance of getting some mags you need.

 

[OneManStanding]

After a bit more experience, I'm actually thinking the magazines are not what we want. They're largely random, not a predictable result of anything you do. Your progress is entirely dependent -- even hindered -- by the random nature of the magazines, despite the loot buff from perks. Not forgetting of course that what's in the box depends on the perks of the rabid loot weasel who opens every box within interaction distance.

As I already said in my initial comment, the magazines are also irrelevant to the perk system - they just let you craft stuff. My buddy has taken the magazines for cooking and farming and gives me everything else even if he's perked into it - so I just craft everything. He might be perked into intellect and engineering but I'm the one that knows how to make the forges and the bikes 'cos he gives me all the magazines. It's simpler in a sense, but I don't feel like we're a team as much as in earlier games where we each perked into stuff the group would need, we all had a role and we all contributed.

If the Pimps wanted to lengthen the early stage of the game, couldn't they just give you more to perk into...? If you need to perk through fifteen layers of tools to go from stone to iron and steel, then with the associate cost of levelling up the attribute itself AND the increased XP point cost for each level of the perks (from one per level to two per level to three per level), not forgetting the separate performance perks you'll need like mining, that would lengthen the game all by itself. But perking into stuff would mean something as it would again unlock recipes, and would also bring back the squad dynamic.

 

[avalonnn]

After a bit more experience, I'm actually thinking the magazines are not what we want. They're largely random, not a predictable result of anything you do. Y

I do agree with this. Some slot machine games work, but it would be nice to have skills be more intentional. As the streamer LegendOfTotalWar says, mechanics that give you agency are meaningful for the player, or as Sid Meier said, good games give the player interesting choices.

 

[Roland]

As I already said in my initial comment, the magazines are also irrelevant to the perk system - they just let you craft stuff. My buddy has taken the magazines for cooking and farming and gives me everything else even if he's perked into it - so I just craft everything. He might be perked into intellect and engineering but I'm the one that knows how to make the forges and the bikes 'cos he gives me all the magazines. It's simpler in a sense, but I don't feel like we're a team as much as in earlier games where we each perked into stuff the group would need, we all had a role and we all contributed.

Okay, but that is a choice you and your buddy are making and it is a choice that was never possible before. In the past you crafted whatever you perked into because it was tied together so you were stuck being the crafter of whatever you perked into. You can still play that way by reading the magazines that match your perked abilities just as before but in A21 there are other choices as well.

As you stated, you can also choose now to let one person or a couple of people do all of the crafting and give them all the magazines. Just because this is a new possible way to play doesn't mean it is the best or only way or even the most efficient way.

The obvious answer to your and your buddy's problem of feeling less of a team than before is to play the game like you did before, read the magazines that match what you perk into, and share in the crafting more with each other.

I do agree with this. Some slot machine games work, but it would be nice to have skills be more intentional. As the streamer LegendOfTotalWar says, mechanics that give you agency are meaningful for the player, or as Sid Meier said, good games give the player interesting choices.

The thing is that survival games are also about working with what you've got and making do with what you can do until you can do more. Determinism is worse than random generation when it comes to the recipes that you can craft because it makes every playthrough the same and most experienced players can drill down on the deterministic nature of the game to never feel any struggle, never have to make do with inferior gear or low quality building materials. They always stay way ahead of the difficulty curve of the game.

Sometimes having to fight off a 7-day horde with pipe weaponry and a wood and cobblestone base is more fun than always fighting off a 7-day horde with machine guns and cement every single time because the deterministic path to top gear is solved.

If it were the actual skills that were randomly assigned in progression I would be against that too. But it is simply the recipes for gear, food, medicine, armor, transportation and building blocks that are random and will cause a varied result in when you attain the recipe to craft those things. And in most cases you aren't even going without-- you are just going with an inferior version until you can find the recipe for the better version.

 

[Kalen]

If it were the actual skills that were randomly assigned in progression I would be against that too. But it is simply the recipes for gear, food, medicine, armor, transportation and building blocks that are random and will cause a varied result in when you attain the recipe to craft those things. And in most cases you aren't even going without-- you are just going with an inferior version until you can find the recipe for the better version.

So I've done a lot of thinking about this.... and you're right.  I've said before that I kind of miss when finding (or not finding) Forge Ahead was a right of passage and had a significant impact on your early game play.

That said, I still don't like the magazine system and I think this stems from two points.

1.  I don't like how your perk choices so strongly impact what magazines you find.   Having it increase the chance for some is fine.... having it effectively decrease your chance of finding others kind of sucks.  Particularly for players like me, who play solo.

2. I don't like that magazines are found in certain types of loot, encouraging you to target things like mailboxes and book shelves.   I think it would far better if magazines could drop from any kind of loot with equal frequency so that you'd just acquire then through normal game play without even really having to think about it.

 

[Roland]

So I've done a lot of thinking about this.... and you're right.  I've said before that I kind of miss when finding (or not finding) Forge Ahead was a right of passage and had a significant impact on your early game play.

That said, I still don't like the magazine system and I think this stems from two points.

1.  I don't like how your perk choices so strongly impact what magazines you find.   Having it increase the chance for some is fine.... having it effectively decrease your chance of finding others kind of sucks.  Particularly for players like me, who play solo.

2. I don't like that magazines are found in certain types of loot, encouraging you to target things like mailboxes and book shelves.   I think it would far better if magazines could drop from any kind of loot with equal frequency so that you'd just acquire then through normal game play without even really having to think about it.

1. I agree and I could swear that the boost was not as high as it appears to be now when I played earlier versions. I could almost swear the boost wasn't even working. I've always felt that the boost should be minimal simply to act as a safety net so that you don't not ever find the magazines you need but not so strong that you feel like your chance of getting off perk magazines is less.

2. This doesn't bother me so much. I never feel the need to go shopping to all the mailboxes and newspaper stands as an intentional magazine gathering activity but I do loot them as I come across them in normal game play. Everyone is going to feel the need to focus on finding magazines to exclusion of other gameplay activities to differing amounts. In the past we've had loot scattered randomly across the world in whatever container and had the complaint from many that location and theme-based loot containers is better because with the former it soon becomes apparent that it doesn't matter in the least where you explore. One place is as good as another.

 

[Kalen]

This doesn't bother me so much.

Yes, but I freely admit you have far more self discipline than I do.

In the past we've had loot scattered randomly across the world in whatever container and had the complaint from many that location and theme-based loot containers is better because with the former it soon becomes apparent that it doesn't matter in the least where you explore. One place is as good as another.

And I agree with that too.... definitely not asking for all loot to be scattered.  

 

[FramFramson]

I think some of the problem might be solved by partially or completely decoupling "this gets you more magazines" from "this gets you higher skill in specific activity X".

I get that "putting points into the skills you focus on will also return you more educational materials for that skill" seeming like a good idea, but the implementation wasn't quite as good as the idea sounded on paper, mainly due to cases where skills are only taken for the way they affect magazine drops, and the way focusing on certain skill combinations can leave your magazine finding odds in conflict with one another.

 

[meganoth]

You can find the opinion of TFP about the huge perk boni to magazine drop chance here:

https://community.7daystodie.com/a21-bugs-main/not-a-bug/perk-boost-for-magazines-is-unexpectedly-huge-r605/?tab=comments#comment-9625

If the Pimps wanted to lengthen the early stage of the game, couldn't they just give you more to perk into...?

In most cases there are more than one reason and IMHO the one you mention is far from the top one for this change.

 

[OneManStanding]

As it stands, perks offer better performance, more magazines, parts, and ammo if applicable. Magazines only help you craft the item. This is my buddy's general reasoning for seeing them as irrelevant to one another - he's a very new player, so I gave him some runway on this.

If, however, perking in reduced the crafting ingredients and reduced the crafting time, as it does in cooking, maybe even boosted the average stats a little bit (durability, damage), that by itself would help reconnect perks with magazines. If me making a shotgun without the perks uses more materials, takes longer, and maybe results in lower-average stats, it would be better if the guy perked into shotguns makes the shotgun.

I could still collect the magazines over time and make the shotgun if I wasn't perked into it. 

 

[meganoth]

f, however, perking in reduced the crafting ingredients and reduced the crafting time, as it does in cooking, maybe even boosted the average stats a little bit (durability, damage), that by itself would help reconnect perks with magazines. If me making a shotgun without the perks uses more materials, takes longer, and maybe results in lower-average stats, it would be better if the guy perked into shotguns makes the shotgun.

Why? Currently the crafter of a weapon can be a different person than the user.

With your proposed change it would be very inefficient to do that as the crafter would need to perk into it (for the crafting) AND the user would need to perk into it (for the direct perk boni for using a weapon).

 

[Roland]

You can find the opinion of TFP about the huge perk boni to magazine drop chance here:

https://community.7daystodie.com/a21-bugs-main/not-a-bug/perk-boost-for-magazines-is-unexpectedly-huge-r605/?tab=comments#comment-9625

Yeah, I think Schwanz's answer is telling. It is important to the devs that players notice the difference even if this means the boost is too high. In the dev's minds, it seems to be better for it to be too high but players know that the boost is operating than for it to be just right (as a safety net) and players often complain and submit false bug reports that the boost isn't operating as far as they can perceive.

I suppose, though, that it is a value in the xmls that can be changed for those that would rather the boost be a bit less?

 

[binf_shinana]

スキルを取っても雑誌の出現数が増えない、と嘆いているプレイヤーの多くは複数のスキルを取得することで出現率が相互干渉を起こすということは当然理解していないと思います。（説明文には増えることしか書いてないので、それは当然のことです）
例えば、高度エンジニアリングは電気製品、トラップ、作業台、リペアツールと4種類もの雑誌を担当しているため、これを取得してしまうと銃器の雑誌取得から大きく遠ざかることになります。

(google translation)

I think that many players who complain that the number of magazines that appear does not increase even if they acquire skills do not understand that the appearance rate will interfere with each other by acquiring multiple skills. (The explanation only says that it will increase, so that is natural.)
For example, Advanced Engineering is responsible for electrical appliances, traps, workbenches, repair tools, and four types of magazines, so if you acquire this, you will be far removed from acquiring firearm magazines.

 

[BFT2020]

(google translation)

I think that many players who complain that the number of magazines that appear does not increase even if they acquire skills do not understand that the appearance rate will interfere with each other by acquiring multiple skills. (The explanation only says that it will increase, so that is natural.)
For example, Advanced Engineering is responsible for electrical appliances, traps, workbenches, repair tools, and four types of magazines, so if you acquire this, you will be far removed from acquiring firearm magazines.

That is true, but only in regards to containers that pull from all magazines.  For the specialty crates, you will be pulling a much smaller batch.  For example, Shotgun Messiah is only firearm magazines so if you are perked into say Gunslinger, you have a high chance of pulling the handgun crafting magazines.

However, the crates themselves are not universal.  Some crates have the crafting magazines in the first group which is always a guaranteed pull while other crates have them in the second group which is a high chance of pulling from it.  And at least one crate (Mo Power) you have guarantee pulls for all but the 4th loot group.  I wonder how loot finds will change if all specialty crates where setup like the Mo Power one where you are always guaranteed 3 items in them with a possible 4th.

I suppose, though, that it is a value in the xmls that can be changed for those that would rather the boost be a bit less?

Maybe cut it in half, from the current 2 to 10 based on perk level to 1 to 5?