BFT2020
Well-known member
I did that, no unlocks via perks. Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.
PC Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...
- Thread starter OneManStanding
- Start date
I did that, no unlocks via perks. Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
That was one example to show how random the system can be, for the sole purpose to show how rng sucks for skills. Not because i needed bacon and eggs that bad.
To make that clear: RNG and skills is something that should never be related to each other in a game. Not because i can´t get something fast enough but because it´s simply a bad idea. Also because it creates a really horrible meta with looting one place multiple times and abusing fergettin elixir.
At this point it would be better to have a good LBD with seperate perks for crafting an item and using it. Or non LBD with seperate perks for looting and crafting, wich would greatly improve the lenght of a playtrough, but that would also mean the trader rewards need to be nerfed down a lot.
Another option would be quests from non trader NPC´s (or from notes as this would mean a lot of work to implement) that you need to do to get crafting skills.
Anything but rng.
@Krougal There was a time where you needed to find the forge ahead book to be able to make a forge. (A single book, not like the magazines now) and it could take you 20 days aswell with bad luck. There were some POI´s with working forges though, but it could still take a long time until you could use a forge.
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Okay, it was the example you just had available, I give you that.
Only that your example may not suck from a game designers point of view because it promotes slighty different problems each time you play and therefore replayability. Your example just doesn't have that life-threatening game f** up beyond repair have-to-restart kind of ring to it that would denote a non-desirable situation to a game designer. What it shows is that crafting progression is still somewhat random (which isn't something nobody has noticed yet) but it didn't show the negative side. And you need a negative side for the rest of your argument that implies the the system needs to change, right?
Isn't this an argument loop? It is a bad idea because it is a bad idea.
Ok. That seems to be a general problem of any POI that is more desirable than other places. Even without the magazine system, i.e. with the previous schematics you could have done that and come away with practically all schematics that you could potentially find at some level. In other words, we are not worse of than before.
And the potential of fergettin to just spec into INT, build the motorbike and chem station, then respec to something else, is again the inherent potential of the fergetting elixier that would exist even more if perks were used to give you crafting skills. The only way to stop fergettin to be so damn good is to make it very expensive and dukes not so easy to get, or add level unlocks to recipes, i.e. the level gates almost everyone hated when they were in the game.
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Kalen
New member
Schematics aren't the problem.... at least to me. Its the QL at which you can craft. This used to be dictated by perks, which is deterministic (or further back by skill which could be increased by using it. Again, deterministic). Now, its determined by which magazines you can find which is RNG. For me, RNG is not a fun way to build a character. To equip a character RNG is excellent but not to determine skills.
BFT2020
Well-known member
That does not make me a masochist.
Now, removing the ability to repair weapons, tools, armor........
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
I have a big problem there. I have a huge pile of shame but have played only very few games in the last >10 years because I got stuck with a few games with huge replayability, mainly Factorio, 7Days2Die, FTL, Slay the Spire and Monster Train (and I have to confess WoW). Not much else.
The other problem is that I forget fast. For example I played Outer Worlds some time ago, but I don't remember anymore how crafting was handled there or whether it even had crafting.
We are not talking about general skills but crafting, right? And 7D2D is a genre mix, so at least we should add survival ganes to the pool. Then any survival or RPG game where you find instead of research schematics would apply. Are there any? Someone else would have to answer this.
But as to your central premise, yes, probably non-randomized learning of crafting recipes is the better way, but then crafting HAS TO BE the slowest method of aquiring things without the possibility of a fast track through it, something 7D2D never had.
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pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
If it´s the slowest way to get good items then everyone will say eff crafting and go quests and looting hardcore as the game already draws you in that direction with the water changes. Abusing the quest system will be even more of a thing then. Crafting should be the first way to get your stuff when playing the "surivial horde crafting" game that TFP claims it is and not the alternative if you can´t get what you want as loot or reward.
Why would you want to make a survival horde crafting game into a loot shooter? We have Borderlands and similar games for that.
And in case you forgot, that´s the subtitle of the game: The survival horde crafting game. I don´t see the word loot or quest in there.
It´s not hard to achieve that. Simply level lock crafting skills (and only those) so you can´t rush them and nerf trader rewards and loot. Crafting becomes importnant again that way.
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Currently crafting is already the slowest way in 7D2D (except for the fast track provided by magazine perks) since the trader is OP since ages. But the trader can't be fixed by making everything else OP as well but only by fixing the trader.
Either crafting has to be slowest way or there are ingredients that slow you down. I don't care which. By "slowest" I mean that looting should always have the ability to give you something ahead of what you can get deterministically, but it should never be so powerful that you get everything only by looting. It's a a balance thing.
Note that looting in 7D2D currently is not OP at all. You loot and loot and all you ever find as a lvl5 character are pipe guns and stone spears. It is the trader and his quest rewards (including the heap of dukes you get) that are OP.
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Adam the Waster
Well-known member
My luck I find level 5 or 6 shovels
Iv found some good stuff before. But the most stuff Is at the traders
I think a way to fix it is give traders a set about of dukes they can trade you, like 7000. If you want more. Do jobs .
I'm just spitballing, I'm overall happy with what we got
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pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
@meganoth Loot and trader are the fastest way to get good items without abusing the magazine system by restarting quests over and over again. You get riddiculous OP rewards very early and if there is items in loot they are pretty much alway above what you can craft until late mid and endgame.
Why do you insist on crafting beeing the slowest? What´s is that obsession to rely on loot and rewards mainly? In a crafting game. Playing the wrong game maybe?
And yes traders need to be nerfed, it´s OP what you can get as rewards early game. For one we need a max quests per day limit as a starter (wich must inlcuded shared quests). Also rewards need to be nerfed to oblivion tbh, along with duke reward and what the traders do sell.
Why do you insist on crafting beeing the slowest? What´s is that obsession to rely on loot and rewards mainly? In a crafting game. Playing the wrong game maybe?
And yes traders need to be nerfed, it´s OP what you can get as rewards early game. For one we need a max quests per day limit as a starter (wich must inlcuded shared quests). Also rewards need to be nerfed to oblivion tbh, along with duke reward and what the traders do sell.
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I disagree. I see a wide margin between loot and trader.
I don't know if you are one of the people who plays without trader, but if not, try it and tell me whether loot is always above crafting. Because currently it seems you find very few complete weapons, and without the trader you are probably finding a few complete guns above what you can craft, but the gun you want will often be one you need to craft, provided you put points into that weapon perk.
As a side note: Currently TFP made sure you only can craft what you have perked into. Even if you did perk into it, weapon magazines are at a disadvantage against other magazine types, so there is some more balancing work necessary here.
What is your obsession with crafting having first place?
I have a feeling all my months of cursing on that damn trader and again in my previous post was for nothing, because in your words I always want to rely on "loot AND rewards". If it wasn't for your last paragraph I would have the impression of writing to a blind man
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pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
Why i insist on crafting? You really ask me, after i have told you that already, why i insist on crafting in the "Survival Horde Crafting Game"? Really? Ok. I am done.
Riamus
Well-known member
@pApA^LeGBaSorry, I can't quote you without including the ping to meganoth when on my phone...
I disagree about limiting the number of quests per day and especially including shared quests. There is already a limit per person per trader and a limited time available per day to limit questing. There are many of us who enjoy questing and saying we aren't allowed to quest all day if we want to isn't a good option.
I'm fine with limiting quest rewards. I think they are too good. But not in limiting questing more than where it is now. You can easily balance it (the rewards) without limiting it.
As far as crafting goes, until they make it worthwhile, there really isn't a good reason to craft and even balancing won't really change that. You craft if you want to but otherwise, you can find most what you need without doing so. And that shouldn't change. If someone doesn't want to craft, they should still be able to get what they need for at least most things. Crafting should be an alternate option and not the only viable option. However, I am not saying it doesn't need to be balanced. Quest rewards are too good and creating costs in A21 are really bad. I would actually craft more of the coats weren't so bad but I don't see value in crafting past tier 1 right now because if the changes in crafting costs. If it was still A20 crafting costs, I would craft often even though I quest and scavenge a lot. But not with the costs the way they are. I'll even forgo a better item that I can craft until I loot it just because the costs are so high... even if I can afford it. I absolutely refuse to craft higher than a tier 1 drone, for example.
Remember that when you suggest a change that will limit someone's else's playstyle, it isn't a good thing. In the same way that if someone suggested making crafting worse, it wouldn't be a good thing for you.
I disagree about limiting the number of quests per day and especially including shared quests. There is already a limit per person per trader and a limited time available per day to limit questing. There are many of us who enjoy questing and saying we aren't allowed to quest all day if we want to isn't a good option.
I'm fine with limiting quest rewards. I think they are too good. But not in limiting questing more than where it is now. You can easily balance it (the rewards) without limiting it.
As far as crafting goes, until they make it worthwhile, there really isn't a good reason to craft and even balancing won't really change that. You craft if you want to but otherwise, you can find most what you need without doing so. And that shouldn't change. If someone doesn't want to craft, they should still be able to get what they need for at least most things. Crafting should be an alternate option and not the only viable option. However, I am not saying it doesn't need to be balanced. Quest rewards are too good and creating costs in A21 are really bad. I would actually craft more of the coats weren't so bad but I don't see value in crafting past tier 1 right now because if the changes in crafting costs. If it was still A20 crafting costs, I would craft often even though I quest and scavenge a lot. But not with the costs the way they are. I'll even forgo a better item that I can craft until I loot it just because the costs are so high... even if I can afford it. I absolutely refuse to craft higher than a tier 1 drone, for example.
Remember that when you suggest a change that will limit someone's else's playstyle, it isn't a good thing. In the same way that if someone suggested making crafting worse, it wouldn't be a good thing for you.
No, that was a rethorical question where I make fun of your asking about my "obsession". Me having an opinion is not an obsession. I added a wink and didn't except an answer.
BFT2020
Well-known member
Even if crafting was at the same progression as looting (which is probably pretty close to when you consider perking into perks) and traders, once you make that weapon or tool, then crafting again becomes irrelevant.
Traders can be adjusted if you want to try to see if slowing down the progression with them makes a big enough difference to make crafting relevant. Trader stage can be easily adjusted upwards, and you can adjust tier level of the rewards so that higher tier quests give lower tier gear (or just remove rewards entirely like I did).
But I don't think those would make a big impact because once you crafted that Q5 SMG or Q6 SMG (modded), why would you craft another SMG after that?
This random thought that keeps bouncing in my head is, why not making crafting tied somewhat to the economy? Right now you can sell almost anything to the traders to make money. What if they only purchased crafted items from you? Then those weapon parts and raw materials you find while looting have no value to the trader, but if you craft a SMG out of them, then the trader is interested in your wares.
Traders can be adjusted if you want to try to see if slowing down the progression with them makes a big enough difference to make crafting relevant. Trader stage can be easily adjusted upwards, and you can adjust tier level of the rewards so that higher tier quests give lower tier gear (or just remove rewards entirely like I did).
But I don't think those would make a big impact because once you crafted that Q5 SMG or Q6 SMG (modded), why would you craft another SMG after that?
This random thought that keeps bouncing in my head is, why not making crafting tied somewhat to the economy? Right now you can sell almost anything to the traders to make money. What if they only purchased crafted items from you? Then those weapon parts and raw materials you find while looting have no value to the trader, but if you craft a SMG out of them, then the trader is interested in your wares.
Kalen
New member
Which is why, IMO, removing item degradation was a huge mistake. I'll never step down off that soap box. Item degradation made crafting far more relevant.
Yeah, much as I hate to admit it, and maybe the way it was implemented sucked (because you had to have guns to combine with other guns to fix your gun and also the way performance degraded as the item wore, which also sucked) lately I think it would give more purpose and reason to keep scavenging if the stuff eventually needed to be replaced. As I go through T6 quests and I'm like "Oh, cool, another ql6 sniper rifle. I'll put it in the chest with the others." I honestly don't know why I pickup anything besides construction materials & lead (because junk turret ammo) at this point.