PC Complete (and last) statement to the status of A17 and its mistakes

[Jedo]

There already is/was a limit, its why we only have/had a limited number of box space in our inventory tab. Theres nothing wrong with my frame of reference, Ive played plenty of games with encumberance where it was very successful ; and inventory encumberance is trivial and not warranted in a sandbox game where you have to manage multiple resources, ammo, food water, first aid, and other neccessary resources to bring back to the base for refinement.

Saying, "We already had an effective limit" is different than saying, "It makes no sense that a single piece of paper over burdens me." I addressed the latter by showing how it makes sense, even within the 7dtd to world. You now have moved the goalposts, which is fine, as long as you recognize that.

Let's talk about your (new) claim that the new encumbrance system is trivial and not warranted. (Yes, you mentioned "trivial" once before, but then buried it under the argument about "sense." At least you are being clearer now.) My friend and I just looted the hospital in our game. It was more than 1/2 km from our base. During our clearing out, we regularly would be encumbered. Do we keep going even though our inventory isn't yet full and risk encountering faster zombies than our encumbered selves? Do we make a crate and dump it even though we'll have to come back for it? (That one isn't unique to the new system, necessarily, but it had a new dimension.) I opted to make a crate and dump my stuff in it and my friend did not. Guess what? He encountered some ferals and was killed. I survived. Later, when we had finished, the question became what to do with the stuff in the boxes scattered around the hospital. We decided it was worth it to grab it and take it back to base. That took time away from doing other things that we could have been doing like making sure our base was horde ready. That's part of a survival game.

Speaking of a fine frame of reference: You seem to think that this is only a sandbox game. You do realize that it is more than that, right? In a traditional sandbox game, you might be right that inventory encumbrance is not warranted. This is a little different. Feel free actually to explain the reasons for your assertions rather than just making them. You seem to think that your points/perspective are self-evident, but they aren't.

 

[Guppycur]

If that was to me you really cant if you fully understand what I'm saying. It was more in reference to the starting tutorial tip pop up boxes that come up. All of those and the journal entries are hard coded. You cannot make more than tutotrialtooltip02 pop ups before you get NR flooding up top. Using a popup window with custom non NPC text is what I'm really after and without modding the dlls there does not seem to be a way. If there is and you know a way please tell me. I have blown up the discussion thread searching for the exact same answer with no luck so far.

Oh, you want text bubbles. Yeh, nope. =)

 

[Limdood]

@OP, good job on that "This will be the last post I make" thing.

RIP gunparts....thank god.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

Saying, "We already had an effective limit" is different than saying, "It makes no sense that a single piece of paper over burdens me." I addressed the latter by showing how it makes sense, even within the 7dtd to world. You now have moved the goalposts, which is fine, as long as you recognize that.
Let's talk about your (new) claim that the new encumbrance system is trivial and not warranted. (Yes, you mentioned "trivial" once before, but then buried it under the argument about "sense." At least you are being clearer now.) My friend and I just looted the hospital in our game. It was more than 1/2 km from our base. During our clearing out, we regularly would be encumbered. Do we keep going even though our inventory isn't yet full and risk encountering faster zombies than our encumbered selves? Do we make a crate and dump it even though we'll have to come back for it? (That one isn't unique to the new system, necessarily, but it had a new dimension.) I opted to make a crate and dump my stuff in it and my friend did not. Guess what? He encountered some ferals and was killed. I survived. Later, when we had finished, the question became what to do with the stuff in the boxes scattered around the hospital. We decided it was worth it to grab it and take it back to base. That took time away from doing other things that we could have been doing like making sure our base was horde ready. That's part of a survival game.

Speaking of a fine frame of reference: You seem to think that this is only a sandbox game. You do realize that it is more than that, right? In a traditional sandbox game, you might be right that inventory encumbrance is not warranted. This is a little different. Feel free actually to explain the reasons for your assertions rather than just making them. You seem to think that your points/perspective are self-evident, but they aren't.

Its clear you really wish to have a deeper debate about this.

Okay for one encumbrance makes no sense because we already had an effective limit, the difference now is the early game is far more punishing with it and the later game is more rewarding by giving additional slots we didn't have in any other pre alpha, which is why most of us want to skip through the early game as fast as possible via power leveling.

Encumbrance is very annoying because if my slots are maxed out, every time I eat a canned food, or drink water, or hit a boulder I have to open my inventory, and keep tossing these damn items out because they auto encumber me, or any unintentionally small item I don't want like a piece of paper from clearing a trash pile so I don't make noise in a fresh POI full of zed, (Literally this is why I used a jar for my example as well, because more than often this is whats encumbering me )

The Early game stage is actually where you need this space the most because you will likely need to bring back pretty much everything you find for the later game, in the later game its not an issue as you'll already have max invi space by then and you'll really not need to bring every single item with you, most players tend to leave behind many valuable items because they simply don't need them anymore, or just scrap them, so really what is your reward? Space you really don't need anymore, however for multiplayer its more effective since you don't want to leave behind valuable items for other players to take, and you need to maximize your effective loot/scavenger runs against other players

Encumbrance makes no sense to me because of the effective weights vs effective values against inventory, (my 6k iron vs 1 jar comment stands behind this) Essentially its a "Boxed" inventory, but larger items would actually take up 2 and sometimes 4 spots depending on what they are, (If you've ever played Biohazard Or Resident Evil 4, you will know what I mean by "Box Space" Essentially this is the same thing.

Diablo does the same inventory, as does minecraft and many other crafting/sandbox games while we're at it since you commented about me saying its a sandbox game, 7 days is the only game that I've ever played that has taken an inventory, and slashed it completely in half for level 1,

Here are all the tags 7 days to die are listed under.

Early Access


Survival


Zombies


Open World


Crafting


Multiplayer


Sandbox


Building


Co-op


Action


Adventure


Survival Horror


Horror


Online Co-Op


FPS


Early Access


RPG


Single Player


Indie


Gore

Sandbox is one of the main tags in the listing, so using it in my argument is a valid statement, its not a game that tries to be a sandbox, it IS a sandbox, essentially your entire end game revolves around building and sandboxing after you've hit a certain level and degree of gamestage, depending on how long you can endure repetitive game play its no longer a survival game. Even though I know you are going to reply with "Creative Menu" in regards to me saying "Sandbox"

I really just don't understand why you vehemently defend encumbrance, its not a very fun mechanic, its only tolerated because you're rewarded with more than pre alpha 17 inventory space later.

 

[Jedo]

Its clear you really wish to have a deeper debate about this.

Not really. I like to correct overly simplistic assertions and strawman arguments. That said, I don't mind having a deeper debate.

I'll take it under a few points.

- "Encumbrance makes no sense"

In on instance, you seem to say that having an encumbrance mechanic makes no sense because we already had something that satisfied the same function of the encumbrance mechanic--limiting what we could carry. All I can say is that they clearly do different things. You can carry only so much stuff because of inventory space. Encumbrance makes you choose whether to use that space. There is a little bit of overlap when it comes to the aspect of deciding what to leave and what to take, but now the choice is a little more complicated. I think the harder choice (as I pointed out) is whether you want to be carrying that stuff while fighting zombies in a POI.

In another instance, you seem to say that the internal logic of the encumbrance mechanic makes no sense because it is not well-thought-out. Again, I already tried to point this out. A person can carry a certain amount of things just fine, but at some point they reach a limit where the next item (even a small/lightweight one) would make them strain to continue carrying the load. You keep saying that it is the jar or paper which pushes you over. Why is it not the full stack of lead that you don't need which has pushed you over the limit? There is a small amount of cheating considering the nature of the game, but the mechanic is internally consistent with the world in which it exists.

- "Encumbrance is annoying/not fun"

These are subjective, so let's just admit that upfront. A person who likes it will like it; a person who doesn't, won't. That opinion doesn't make it a bad mechanic. You say that the way you have to manage it makes it tedious, but I don't manage it that way. Other than being slow if I choose to walk encumbered a long distance, I am not bothered by this mechanic. Furthermore, even though I don't like that aspect, I respect it as an added layer to the gameplay and my decision-making.

- "Encumbrance is punishing early"

So is having to use level 1 tools? Not having an auger? I don't really understand why this is a problem or a point. You wanting to skip the difficult early portion of the game is your problem, not TFP's.

You go on to say that encumbrance becomes obsolete later. So does stamina management or the stone axe. Again, that's part of the progression. As you progress, the game becomes easier and you don't have to deal with the early elements anymore. Eventually, I won't have to deal with my toddler's poopy diapers anymore.

- "It's a sandbox game and other sandbox games don't have encumbrance like this"

First of all, as you show, it is much more than a sandbox game, which I already stated. Second, while sandbox is a main part of it, the other genres that are part of this game mean that things other sandbox games do don't necessarily work here. Third, just because no other game has done something is not an argument (in itself) for why 7dtd should not.

Your point that the end is no longer survival and is purely sandbox overlooks a couple of things. One, just because the end no longer requires hardcore survival doesn't make the rest of the game not survival. Two, I suspect that there are plenty of people who, when they get to "the end," do not proceed to build endlessly but instead start a new game. You pretty much have projected your own thoughts onto the game as a whole here.

I really just don't understand why you vehemently defend encumbrance, its not a very fun mechanic, its only tolerated because you're rewarded with more than pre alpha 17 inventory space later.

I'm not "vehemently defending" encumbrance; I'm vehemently defending against flawed logic. Is the encumbrance mechanic my favorite? Not really. I would have preferred blocked inventory slots. Do I mind the encumbrance mechanic? Not really. It's just another element of the game to be managed, and it's not particularly difficult to manage. My friend and I just got our first vehicles. Encumbrance now only matters for the big POIs where we would get loaded-down partway through. Of course, we could just kill all the zombies first, then go back and loot the building quickly. Could the encumbrance mechanic have been done differently? Sure. Would another option have been better? To some people, yes; and to others, no.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

Not really. I like to correct overly simplistic assertions and strawman arguments. That said, I don't mind having a deeper debate.
I'll take it under a few points.

- "Encumbrance makes no sense"

In on instance, you seem to say that having an encumbrance mechanic makes no sense because we already had something that satisfied the same function of the encumbrance mechanic--limiting what we could carry. All I can say is that they clearly do different things. You can carry only so much stuff because of inventory space. Encumbrance makes you choose whether to use that space. There is a little bit of overlap when it comes to the aspect of deciding what to leave and what to take, but now the choice is a little more complicated. I think the harder choice (as I pointed out) is whether you want to be carrying that stuff while fighting zombies in a POI.

In another instance, you seem to say that the internal logic of the encumbrance mechanic makes no sense because it is not well-thought-out. Again, I already tried to point this out. A person can carry a certain amount of things just fine, but at some point they reach a limit where the next item (even a small/lightweight one) would make them strain to continue carrying the load. You keep saying that it is the jar or paper which pushes you over. Why is it not the full stack of lead that you don't need which has pushed you over the limit? There is a small amount of cheating considering the nature of the game, but the mechanic is internally consistent with the world in which it exists.

- "Encumbrance is annoying/not fun"

These are subjective, so let's just admit that upfront. A person who likes it will like it; a person who doesn't, won't. That opinion doesn't make it a bad mechanic. You say that the way you have to manage it makes it tedious, but I don't manage it that way. Other than being slow if I choose to walk encumbered a long distance, I am not bothered by this mechanic. Furthermore, even though I don't like that aspect, I respect it as an added layer to the gameplay and my decision-making.

- "Encumbrance is punishing early"

So is having to use level 1 tools? Not having an auger? I don't really understand why this is a problem or a point. You wanting to skip the difficult early portion of the game is your problem, not TFP's.

You go on to say that encumbrance becomes obsolete later. So does stamina management or the stone axe. Again, that's part of the progression. As you progress, the game becomes easier and you don't have to deal with the early elements anymore. Eventually, I won't have to deal with my toddler's poopy diapers anymore.

- "It's a sandbox game and other sandbox games don't have encumbrance like this"

First of all, as you show, it is much more than a sandbox game, which I already stated. Second, while sandbox is a main part of it, the other genres that are part of this game mean that things other sandbox games do don't necessarily work here. Third, just because no other game has done something is not an argument (in itself) for why 7dtd should not.

Your point that the end is no longer survival and is purely sandbox overlooks a couple of things. One, just because the end no longer requires hardcore survival doesn't make the rest of the game not survival. Two, I suspect that there are plenty of people who, when they get to "the end," do not proceed to build endlessly but instead start a new game. You pretty much have projected your own thoughts onto the game as a whole here.

I'm not "vehemently defending" encumbrance; I'm vehemently defending against flawed logic. Is the encumbrance mechanic my favorite? Not really. I would have preferred blocked inventory slots. Do I mind the encumbrance mechanic? Not really. It's just another element of the game to be managed, and it's not particularly difficult to manage. My friend and I just got our first vehicles. Encumbrance now only matters for the big POIs where we would get loaded-down partway through. Of course, we could just kill all the zombies first, then go back and loot the building quickly. Could the encumbrance mechanic have been done differently? Sure. Would another option have been better? To some people, yes; and to others, no.

Its only flawed logic to you, these are stacked points why I disagree with encumberance, you seem to think I cant make up my mind or something.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

By that definition its very clear you dont understand what a strawman argument is, I went ahead and looked it up for you and everyone else.

My comments were at the very core of why encumberance doesnt have a place in 7 days to die and pointed out several statements ( facts) why its a bad system, from mechanics, early/ late game and just plain player annoyance and frustration it has no place.

All it does is add to the laziness of slowly down player progression early game, which was a bad decision instead of creating more content for late and end/Bis game stages; it is arbitrary, and not exciting in any way and the late game reward isnt nearly the same here as you tried to ( actually did use strawman argumemt with the toddler diapers, stamina and tools, they are completely different mechanics managed in complete different ways)

Lebel 1 tools arent any different than level 6 ones until you mod them ( except durability) , I tend to keep hold of my level 1 axe because its versatility, and repairing takes a milisecond and only 1 rock.

Stamina is greatly more rewarding later for many obvious reasons, you can run farther without needing to rest, you can attack with melee more to conserve ammo or if youre ammo depleted.

You can mine much longer without needing to rest.

There is a huge difference spending the same amount of points for something like pack mule late game because you dont even need to leave your base to explore anymore which trivializes the perks existance over all, let alone encumberance.

Your comment of the " Straw that broke the camels back" is infinitely flawed, I can become encumbered by a jar or paper, but if I toss out a single light weight item like an animal bone, fat, mod schematic I dont want, guess what, I can now fill that slot with another 6K scrap iron. /boggle