PC Complete (and last) statement to the status of A17 and its mistakes

Vic, I think I agree with just about every point you made. I still like the game a lot, though and will play a lot a more A17. You should stick with it. As you noted yourself, the first week or two are tedious, but once you are over that hump there's a great game waiting.

I am still on the fence about whether A17 is better than A16. It has a lot I love, but also a lot I hate.

 
I agree with you on the gun parts, always hated it. The mods are much cooler imo.
The thing is, the mods gimmick is over (i.e. maxed out) too quickly and too early in the game. You will have 5 mods in your guns the moment you can craft tier 6 guns typically. Where do you go from there? At least the gun parts hunt lasted much much longer. In fact some of the rarer guns like the Magnum were a real challenge to get to 600.

Love 'em or hate 'em, gun parts provided a longer end-game which we no longer have, and continuous character progression which we now desperately lack in A17. And since gun part-based progression was based directly on looting, it provided a real drive for the player to keep exploring and keep looting. Something that I find terribly lacking in A17. Day 30, I have everything at tier 6, and all the mods I will ever need. No real need to loot POIs any more. And I have explored almost none of my 8k map to achieve this.

 
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We're probably adding damage back to quality and I have a get better at crafting by crafting design I need to sell to the team.
Thanks MM -- this is tremendous news. I felt that everything in A17 was a positive or at worst lateral move with the exception of one-size-fits-all progression.

 
Why try to reason 7D2D with ark ?
My playtime in 7D2D 6000+ Hours

My playtime in ark

1.5 hours
7D2D and Ark are my two favorite games. I have around 4k hours in both. Ark is a great survival game, with an awesome endgame and many slider options to configure the game the way you like it.

 
This will be the last post I make. Yes I said this before, but I actually had some sort of interest The balance issues

I have not played enough of A17 to give more balancing issues, as I've only reached lvl 25, day 10. Thats why most of this is bound to the early game. (Also nothing with levelgates is mentioned because I hope they will remove that soon)

-block hp/zombie blockdmg

-spawnrate of ferals in pois/quests (should not appear before a certain gamestage, maybe not even before day 7)

-spawnrate of zombies in pois/quests

-too many guns

-nests are everywhere (900 feathers and 90+ eggs on day 9) burnt biome should not have any (or at least very very few) nests, because they all burnt and because you can see them so insanely well

-a "lucky gun find" early is worse then a crossbow. only perks make weapons viable.

-running takes too much stamina. I get why mining should take a lot, but stopping every 150 meters (non desert) to get a breather (even with lvl 1 perk) is just not enjoyable

-loot from zombies should be more frequent, and more specific to the killed zombie (hazmat guy dropped an ak... instead of hazmat clothes, nurse dropped water instead of healing...)

-loot in cars is absolutely insane. Got 20+ 7.65 bulltes on my very first car and more

I'm level 106 in my current playthrough. The focus of looting in the game is definitely changed: Guns are plentiful, but ammo is not. Brass is much easier to obtain, but lead is sparse. Far more difficult to obtain than gunpowder(via mining rocks). Given how many recipes require glue/duct tape, bones are a premium, so looking for roadkill and animals is a must. That said, I'll address your balance issues one by one:

-Block HP/zombie damage: Yes this is an issue, but not an insurmountable one. Spike traps do a substantial amount of damage, and they are relatively cheap to craft, so don't skimp on them. My friend and I live in a box base, completely surrounded by spikes and wandering hordes/chumps die very quickly on them. It will also deal very well with your first three horde nights, depending on game stage. If they die before getting near the blocks, then zombie block damage is not an issue.

-spawnrate of ferals in pois/quests: Honestly I haven't bothered with the quests, but I do POI's regularily. Yes, ferals are a very real threat. This is good, because regular zombies are just...not. That said, I don't think I would enjoy doing POI's in single player.

-too many guns: I actually like this. This is what you would expect in a zombie apocalypse: Many guns but little ammo left. Guns are an excellent source of mechanical parts and ammo. Once I get a decent one, I just scrap/sell any subsequent ones I find. You typically get a full reload of ammo from each one. If you are melee-ing generally (which we do), you end up with a nice cache of ammo in your base come horde night.

-nests are everywhere: Again, this is good, because before being able to find guns, feathers are a must for arrows, and bacon and eggs are a staple diet for a long time.

-a "lucky gun find" early is worse then a crossbow. only perks make weapons viable: At a low gamestage (depending on difficulty) guns should not be necessary. Invest some points in strength and sexual tyrannosaurus and melee is far better until you can invest some points in gun skills, at which point you will have enough ammo saved up to make the gun perks meaningful.

-running takes too much stamina: Rule 1, Cardio, and invest in agility. Find a nice base spot near a town and get used to walking, instead of running. It's not so bad once you get used to it. It's painful at the beginning, but eases off pretty quick.

-loot from zombies should be more frequent: I think that recently got buffed. Even so, sitting around farming zombies is not really how the designers really envisaged you playing the game. Go out and loot stuff. It's more interesting/exciting, and generally the reward is better.

-loot in cars is absolutely insane: Agreed. It's a fantastic source of brass(radiators), lead(batteries), coin(engines), and iron(raw, springs etc). If you need lead (and you will), and you aren't specced for miner69er, it's better than a full day mining. Getting ammo from cars is good too. I actually like this because I detest mining.

My main (and only real) gripe about A17 is the 30 minute death penalty: in the A17 update, they went from rewarding death avoidance (wellness system) to punishing death. From a game design perspective, I don't like punishing players; rewarding is a way better choice. At higher gamestages, the death penalty can(and does for me) lead to chain deaths, meaning you are better off sitting somewhere safe for half an hour, real time. It was so annoying, and detrimental to my gameplay experience, I ended up editing the XML files to reduce the duration to 5 minutes. If you die, having to travel several km to retrieve your gear, potentially unarmed and on foot, is punishment enough.

As a game mechanic, in essense, NearDeathExperience responds to your finding the game difficult, by making the game yet more difficult. One could make the argument of death reducing gamestage(and thus game difficulty), but this only applies if you are the character with the highest gamestage, or are playing in single player. In MP where you are the "second" character, it has no effect on gamestage, and as such, is not consistently reducing difficulty until the debuff is gone. Add to this that the debuff can make you temporarily unable to craft certain items due to the primary stat penalty, and it is seriously deleterious to gameplay experience.

 
This will be the last post I make. Yes I said this before, but I actually had some sort of interest still left and wanted to wait to see what A17.1 fixes (answer: not much)

The bad

-no gunparts. I hate that you now find guns in the whole and every gun does the same damage and quality was set from 600 to 6, which in turn scrambles progression. (*) It gave such a nice curve of progression and if they had just done what a lot of people suggested (stock improving stability,barrel accuracy, magazine how often reload is stuck, parts durability and all of them improve damage) they would have such a nice system. Now its a simple "gun or no gun!" and the only difference is how many mods I can install, which give dmg (yay. My weapon is now green, so it shoots harder! Yay my weapon now has a scope/laser so it shoots harder yay)

There was NO REASON to completely remove this awesome system, as it made every weapon unique and had a lot of potential.

-level gating. HOW. WHY. Who thought this is a good idea. Name me one game where levelgating helps the game and is not an obvious last resort to fix glaring progression issues (so no A16). No one who has studied gamedesign... hell no one who has played games regularly would think levelgating is a good idea in a SANDBOX SURVIVAL GAME (even for rpg/horror games)

Just don't. I gave you my examples on how to fix this without arbitrary levelrequirements... do with those what you want. But if you don't remove them, I will, for the first time in 7d2d, mod my xmls.

-performance. DAMN this is bad. I understand that it is EA experimental. But I cannot see how this could improve AT LEAST on the level that A16 was running (we were promised improvements on performance). Yes I have no doubt you will get this to work, but it still had to be said.

-progression. its all over the place. Leveling takes longer, better perks are gated behind level, but in the same breath I found an AK-47 and a shotgun with around 70 ammo on day 8. And since weapons are all the same, I'm already better off then I was in A16 on day 50.

-zombies. I like that they now are a threat. BUT. Their A.I. is way too straightforward, they rather sit there for 5 minutes to hit blocks on end, instead of taking the "free" route through the spikes that they don't even see. They must be psycic.

The conga line of wandering hordes are still gps trackers and are now slow as hell on daytime.

The spawning of zombies in pois (not talking about amount, thats for balancing) is cheaty. They are only there to surprise the player, which doesn't feel like this world is actually real, but that the devs just wanted to scare players. There could have been other ways to do that. Also playerdetection is super weird (*jumps* *atomic bomb explodes*).

-hitboxes. Has been talked about in this forums, but still: You should not only hit a zombie when he is in the little cross at the end of your swing. My sledgehammer should hit everything in front of me (at least depending in the swing). This way makes faster weapons a lot more forgiving, which feels bad, because I like the harder hitting ones. This could have been in bugs, because its so broken. Fix this.

-removal of stainless steel. Zombies got more dangerous. We need more endgame content. WHY WOULD YOU REMOVE and endgame item now? Especially since it was so super rare that you only had that day 100+ and even then without defenses this would crumble.

(*) if I have to find 4 parts and the chance is 1/50, the overall chance to find them is 1/200. But until then, i gradually progress, finding more and more parts, until I finally have the gun.

If I have to find 1 part and the chance is 1/200, for a long time I don't have anything to show for it, no plan to go to the trader to look for that last part... and suddenly BOOM. Completely functional, endgame AK-47.

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I will now deal with your bad points (due to character limit):

-no gunparts: I did like the gun parts from previous alpha builds, but even so, as a base builder crafter, I already have more than enough to deal with, so finding complete guns that require no additional work besides mods (which I really like), is a good thing.

-level gating. Yep, dumb. Stat gating is fine, and promotes character specialisation, which is by design, but level gating is not a great idea.

-performance: I'm seeing a lot of microstutters in the current build, but otherwise I find the performance quite playable, so long as I turn down advanced graphic effects, that are a resource hog. Like any game, if you want eye candy, pony up for a top end GFX card.

-progression: Some progression is weird, but is currently being worked on and tweaked. Generally I find it's pretty good, but it's not perfect.

-zombies: Yes, the AI is so dumb that it has no choice but to wail on blocks and always follow the path of least resistance. MadMole, pony up and hire a good AI programmer. A-Star pathfinding is only a small part of game AI.

-hitboxes: Hitboxes for melee has been MASSIVELY improved over A16. Also, there is a perk for sledgehammers (Heavy Metal), that cause power attacks to hit nearby enemies. Don't expect itemisation to do everything out of the box.
 
It's far worse than that.
They are taking feedback and responding to it, but they are doing so from the wrong people.

They should be making the game to suit may tastes, dammit! Not those of other people.
I hate to be the one to say this but a lot of people on here has the collective IQ that if put together and turned into electricity could toast a piece of bread lightly.

 
I've been playing this game since the Alphas were in the single digits, and I gotta say IN MY OPINION this alpha is the best one yet BY FAR.

I was a little sad at the removal of gun parts, and the inability to loot zombies had me worried, but now they are gone I never want then to come back. Haha

A change I would love to see though, would be that swimming uses up a players stamina ( like sprinting but more slowly) and running out of stamina means you can no longer swim above the surface of the water.

I've had players travel to the middle of a lake leave heavy objects on their space bars during horde nights and go afk during blood moons, then take on the horde on the next day during the morning.

Kind of trivializes horde nights. Also would make water more dangerous which I feel could be a cool bonus.

As for losing the good aspects of gun parts to an even better system (of no gun parts) I had an idea that might work.

It COULD be cool to be able to grab a high level perk that let's you throw a gun on a workbench to see it's parts and swap them out, and a perk (probably the same one at a higher level) to let you CRAFT new parts (but never loot or see them otherwise. Ever. Unless you put the points in and manually open you gun on a work bench or create/swap out your own parts.) Then each part could have quality tiers with small bonuses to accuracy, handling etc.

This could bring some of the end game functionality back that people said they were missing without changing the experience at all early to mid game, as well as having no impact for those who choose not to spec into it. Gun parts would be invisible unless you go looking for them.

I really don't know how necessary something like that would be though, just seemed like a cool way to bridge the gap between everything great about looting full guns, with everything people say that they missed about the old gun part system.

As for improving in skills via doing, I think that could be cool to have back, but I feel this perk system is a step in the right direction. Are you guys thinking of having the individual attributes level up through doing (I.E. int, per, fort, and agl,) but still requiring perk purchasing?

Something like that could be cool, but earning every perk by doing an action related to that perk repeatedly might be a step in the wrong direction.

I dunno though. A couple months ago had you told me they were removing the ability to loot zombies I would have sworn up and down they were making the wrong call.

My faith in TFP are at an all time high right now.

They could turn all of the zombies into different Ice cream flavors and I would try it before complaining now, haha

Don't even worry about desenters, you just keep on doing what you are doing TFP

 
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I've been playing this game since the Alphas were in the single digits, and I gotta say IN MY OPINION this alpha is the best one yet BY FAR.
I disagree tbh. (I've also played since Alpha 6, 4k+ hours currently logged and many hours not logged due to change in account so over 6k hours) This is probably the most intuitive patch when it comes to the early game, it used to be fairly fun to play the early game, now TFP have done everything they can possibly think of to just "Slow the player down" as much as possible in an attempt to make the early game feel longer, when really it just makes it tedious and unenjoyable, what used to be fun and exciting is now a boring crawl and mesh of snowballing problems of encumberance,grinding very minimal amounts of resources to kill stat padded enemies with several headshots.

I was a little sad at the removal of gun parts, and the inability to loot zombies had me worried, but now they are gone I never want then to come back. Haha
I kinda wish they would bring gun parts back, though I don't care for every zed being lootable coming back.


A change I would love to see though, would be that swimming uses up a players stamina ( like sprinting but more slowly) and running out of stamina means you can no longer swim above the surface of the water

I've had players travel to the middle of a lake leave heavy objects on their space bars during horde nights and go afk during blood moons, then take on the horde on the next day during the morning.

Kind of trivializes horde nights. Also would make water more dangerous which I feel could be a cool bonus..
No, there are more intuitive ways to deal with this, we need to stop destroying player options by increasing the pressure of stamina usage, Spitting cop zeds will kill them if they are in water and honestly the first 7th day horde is very easy to deal with even without a base.

As for losing the good aspects of gun parts to an even better system (of no gun parts) I had an idea that might work.

It COULD be cool to be able to grab a high level perk that let's you throw a gun on a workbench to see it's parts and swap them out, and a perk (probably the same one at a higher level) to let you CRAFT new parts (but never loot or see them otherwise. Ever. Unless you put the points in and manually open you gun on a work bench or create/swap out your own parts.) Then each part could have quality tiers with small bonuses to accuracy, handling etc.

This could bring some of the end game functionality back that people said they were missing without changing the experience at all early to mid game, as well as having no impact for those who choose not to spec into it. Gun parts would be invisible unless you go looking for them.
That wouldn't be a bad idea, and there could be mods to specifically mod those parts rather than just dropping them all into the same gun as its "implied"

As for improving in skills via doing, I think that could be cool to have back, but I feel this perk system is a step in the right direction. Are you guys thinking of having the individual attributes level up through doing (I.E. int, per, fort, and agl,) but still requiring perk purchasing?

Something like that could be cool, but earning every perk by doing an action related to that perk repeatedly might be a step in the wrong direction.
I strongly believe in the passive and active perks that can level up over time by performing them which is far more immersive and rewarding to a specific players play style directly, Some more than others, but many I think its inane that I have to kill 30 zeds so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs.

I would leave the main categories alone but things like weapon skills should definitely be a level up over time feels best to me, where as things like cooking are not as easy to balance with this way.

I dunno though. A couple months ago had you told me they were removing the ability to loot zombies I would have sworn up and down they were making the wrong call.
Thats just because of bones and rotting flesh which was used to make fertilizer, lets be honest , we never cared about the zed loot.

My faith in TFP are at an all time high right now.

They could turn all of the zombies into different Ice cream flavors and I would try it before complaining now, haha

Don't even worry about desenters, you just keep on doing what you are doing TFP

Actually I've lost a lot of faith in TFP with their development choices over the years, a game that used to be extremely fun and was fun to play with friends has become a boring and mundane game where it feels like a second job to just to get through the early game now, from things that literally don't belong in a sandbox survival game like Encumbrance (I can have an empty jar or single sheet of paper over burden me, but I can carry 6 stacks of 6000 scrap metal and it doesn't affect me :distrust:

Their frequent neglect to multiplayer and player vs player needs has caused a lot of very good players no longer playing as well, when most of those players were great friends of yours it sucks that their breaking the game has caused players to lose other people they enjoyed playing with, if you're nothing but a Solo/Sp you couldn't possibly imagine how that feels.

This game lacks "Substance" ""Juice"" ""Content"" Instead they essentially take something very tiny and see how far they can stretch it, plagued abhorrently by the same gimmicks that "Simulate" a "Challenge" but isn't really a challenge at all. Like crippling player ranged damage or spiking zed HP , this doesn't make it more challenging, it just makes it more grindy, and therefore boring.

 
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Hello and thank you madmole for taking the time to read such a long post.Well fundamentally Ark and Atlas are the same game. Implementation matters a great deal.
Yes, and if you look at the Kickstarter and the original goals of the game, they never had anything close to those goals in most areas until A17, then dropped a ton of it on us. A17 creates the game that they wanted from the beginning (while they still have some things to implement.

And you DIDN'T grind for xp in A16. XP was a byproduct that gained you a nice perk or two. (yes it had levelgating and I was against that even back then).
The hell you didn't grind for xp... The only difference was you had to craft 500,000 arrows to max your normal weaponsmithing skill and still had to gate the actual use of it separately. I primarily play with my daughters on PS4, so I still experience the grind of pre-A17 regularly and trying to advance even one facet of the game is tedious and annoying in the old system. The basic crafting skills were just a matter of building a crap-ton of stuff that you don't want or need just to get good enough to FINALLY get something worthwhile, and the weapon skills rose so slowly that you'd be lucky to ever come close to maxing a skill (or even hitting 50) before giving up on the save game and starting over from scratch, but the perk points made it not only impractical, but a flat out hindrance to yourself to level skills with them as opposed to spending on the special perks.

They took out all that middle-man bull♥♥♥♥ in A17 and thus reduced the grind for xp in individual skills. It was a design decision. One that I happen to agree with.

I am playing A16 right now and most points I mention still hold true. Progression was WAY more gradual and everything you did matters.

Now no matter what I do, XP is everything. I can always put points into what I feel is most useful. Why can I be a master marksman if I never held a bow/gun?
Likely because you don't understand the concept of playing a game. Generally speaking, you advance the skills you use by choice because you are using them and/or intend to do so alot.

Nice to hear the quality change.

OH NO!!! Getting better at crafting is the ONLY thing that made sense to remove, because it is so insanely hard to balance (I did some suggestions, but they are all complicated with timed xp and stuff)... if you can balance it, NICE! But all the other perks like fighting looting and mining were way more important as a progression.

I already took so much of your time, so I will leave it at that even if I would have to say much more.

So thank you for actually taking the time to read and respond, and please do not think that 45% like ratio is just ppl being salty.

This forum and reddit are VERY favorable for your views, and even there are quite some ppl who hate the new update.
Technically speaking, the reddit is hyper-critical in general, and the forums are just people that are passionate, for positive or negative, on the game (or on any topic, really). I have seen so much stupid and baseless hate on the reddit page that it is sickening some of the crap people say... Especially since the devs are so responsive. Hell, half of the random extra stuff that's been added to the game is literally because of the forums. All of the balancing and tuning is as well.

 
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Ranged weapons should not get more damage with higher quality.

Rather have more accuracy, fault resistance (jamming weapons requiring a reload) and faster loading speeds.

That would be way more realistic to how guns work, and reflecting the problems that poorly maintained / worn out guns have.

Overall I like the design to have flat damages with weapons, and rather increase damage with upgrades.

----

But guns are way too common currently. I have a whole chest full of pistols and shotguns at day 12...

The RNG could be designed flexibly, to reduce the spawning chance for items that the player already has (had picked up before).

Fallout 3 had the mechanic to "combine" items of the same type to repair it. That would be a meaningful system to reduce the item inflation, and allow the player to repair gun without repair kits.

(Its also somewhat realistic, as standardized guns are made out of exchangeable parts)

 
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...Encumbrance (I can have an empty jar or single sheet of paper over burden me, but I can carry 6 stacks of 6000 scrap metal and it doesn't affect me :distrust:
I'm tired of this trite argument. The phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" comes to mind. Or consider a weightlifter who can do 10 reps of 350lbs, but can barely do 1 rep of the next level up.

 
The hell you didn't grind for xp... The only difference was you had to craft 500,000 arrows to max your normal weaponsmithing skill and still had to gate the actual use of it separately.
spam crafting was fixed in A16.4

 
Neither does 7dtd in the first few hours (well, depending on how you play).
If Ark had a death penalty, I would not play it because you die in Ark more times because of bugs than your own stupidity. Can't tell you how many times I've logged in and found myself in the sky plummeting to my death, or DCing while on my pteranadon above the swamps, etc.

That said, I've died 3 times in my latest 7DtD session where it was not my fault. One was a lag spike just at the wrong moment while fighting a zombie. The other 2 times were because of non-feral zombies running around during the day (I submitted a bug report for that one).

I think a game needs to be very stable if it is going to have a death penalty, and the death penalty should not be punitive to beginners. For example in Path of Exile, you lose XP when you die, but that only starts happening in the second half of the game. For the first couple of acts, you can die as much as you like with no penalty. That's one way of doing it right. The other right way, in my opinion, is to make the penalty for all levels, but make it really light. Like in A16's wellness system, where your max health dropped each time you died but not lower than 70.

 
Fallout 3 had the mechanic to "combine" items of the same type to repair it. That would be a meaningful system to reduce the item inflation, and allow the player to repair gun without repair kits.

(Its also somewhat realistic, as standardized guns are made out of exchangeable parts)
You used to be able to combine items in the work bench in the previous Alpha. Miss that.

 
Yep the early is such a pain and i hate it, luckily i play SP only so decided to give myself 30 skill points to start with by giving myself exp but nothing else, played catch up for a bit and it was still unforgiving but only because the gamestage was higher and i was dealing with harder stuff without hardly much gear rather than micro managing stam an inventory which isn't fun early. Give it a try, 7D2D still great game once the early is over.

And all the comparisons to Ark, cant go into detail but early ark is way more fun than early 7D, maybe because everything is such a danger to you, but its strong dinos you have to rise up and gear not tedium. Which is the way i chose by adding the early points. Worked quite nice.

Stam is a bore will agree and im decent at managing it, whoever suggested to get used to walking everywhere lmao, o dear how disgustingly dull. vehicles are high priority early on for me. Just like getting the Elks in ark to get around on.

 
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