Clarification on zombie pathing - video demonstration

We know that the zombie pathing is a work in progress and you're still tweaking it, however is it possible to clarify to the community how you want the zombies to path in an ideal world?

Right now they're rat/cheese/maze physic group think zombies who can rip through anything and know exactly where to go. Is this the intended design? Personally, it feels horrible. It's not difficult to overcome, it just doesn't feel realistic of the genre. In A16, they were dumb and ran directly at you. Personally this was more fun for me but some people like the current AI. Can we have an option in the settings in future Alpha's to choose the zombie AI we like?

I've made a video of how obscene their pathing is. It doesn't seem fun.

 

[ghettochild2600]

We know that the zombie pathing is a work in progress and you're still tweaking it, however is it possible to clarify to the community how you want the zombies to path in an ideal world?
Right now they're rat/cheese/maze physic group think zombies who can rip through anything and know exactly where to go. Is this the intended design? Personally, it feels horrible. It's not difficult to overcome, it just doesn't feel realistic of the genre. In A16, they were dumb and ran directly at you. Personally this was more fun for me but some people like the current AI. Can we have an option in the settings in future Alpha's to choose the zombie AI we like?

I've made a video of how obscene their pathing is. It doesn't seem fun.

Or a little of both.

 

[HungryZombie]

The pathing seems very strange to me.

For example, if I build a 11x7 rectangle out of the same materials, lets stay cobblestone. I put a door on one side and stand inside the rectangle. The zombies will beat on the wall behind me instead of going for the door, even if the door is open.

If I'm in a POI the zombies are busting through walls instead of going though open doorways.

Love to know if this is an issue or intended.

 

[Venemox]

First off, great set up Maje. The color coding and the way you showed that merely taking a meter step completely abuses AI athing was fantastic.

I could see an enterprising player lining those maze paths with traps and never having to even lift a finger to fight the blood moon horde themselves.

I thin we should start referring to the Zeds as Zombat Zengineers.

 

[beHypE]

Amazing video.

Maybe adding the different zombies to "groups" would help. Some zombies would be smart (a bit less than what we just saw, though, and without the obvious glitches of diagonal blocks not being taken into account) and try to get to you using whatever path you provide, others would try to get straight at you and destroy everything once they realise they can't reach you unless they funnel through the maze. You could even finetune it by adding some kind of randomized variable "<X blocks to travel or destroy everything", so that even smart zombies would randomly decide they won't take that 25+ blocks route and bash their way through instead, while others would decide to take the maze.

Also, I think the balance between zombies trying to reach your Y (vertical distance) and your X (horizontal distance) is off. Currently, it seems zombies feel the urge to be at your height WAY more than being "next to you" but below/above. Which is quite the opposite of all the zombie movies you see, where they usually get straight at you and start cluttering up at the base of what you're standing on.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

 

[RipClaw]

I'm not a fan of random behavior as it's often requested here. To be able to plan a base and defense you have to be able to rely on a certain behavior. This doesn't have to be completely uniform but you should be able to recognize a pattern.

Against the initial hordes almost every defense works if you have enough firepower but against a big max gamestage horde only an effective and well thought out base with automatic traps works. For these traps to work effectively, however, the zombies must choose a specific path and not simply take the shortcut through the concrete wall.

 

[Maje]

I'm not a fan of random behavior as it's often requested here. To be able to plan a base and defense you have to be able to rely on a certain behavior. This doesn't have to be completely uniform but you should be able to recognize a pattern.
Against the initial hordes almost every defense works if you have enough firepower but against a big max gamestage horde only an effective and well thought out base with automatic traps works. For these traps to work effectively, however, the zombies must choose a specific path and not simply take the shortcut through the concrete wall.

I'm also not a fan of completely random behavior. I'm a fan of "dumb" behavior. Personally I thought the AI was fine in A16. They see you, they attack any obstacle between you and them. They're brain dead, It's what I would have expected.

 

[Benjiro]

Uh, almost everyone? I don't know what discussions you were watching.
I know lots of us, me included, said we would remove them from the spawning pool instantly. I play to fight zombies, not giant monsters.

Must have missed those discussions... The behemoth was a nice solution for "overpowered" bases that a player got after a week or two in-game.

The Ferals or Radiated zombies are no better because they are literally zombie monsters. Well, by that logic we can also remove the Spider Zombie, Spitting Cop and the wright as not real zombie types. But because people are used to them, this is not counted as "monster zombies".

And now we have giant Zombie pigs in the game, i hear nobody complaining about that one.

===

Reality is, that we really are missing more zombie models and variations that fit the lore, instead of more monster zombies like feral, radiated, spitting zombies etc.

* Cop zombie needs a gun and not a spit attack.

* Exploding cop zombie needs to be a miner zombie, with some dynamite on his body. So it can damage you base if he explodes nearby and its is a zombie you can not easily melee.

* Spider zombie needs to be maybe a athlete zombie.

* Dire wolf needs to be some kind of Zombie Wolf texture.

...

Whatever ... i know what i am writing is useless because the Pimp will simply reuse zombie assets again. Instead of having some semblance of logic and realism. They are simply so strapped with texture issues on their models and inability to generate large hordes, that they keep reusing the same models.

 

[Maje]

I made another video to demonstrate zombie pathing and block selection. I hope we actually do get some clarification from the pimps on what ideal pathing would look like and if this is it.

 

[Kattla]

I made another video to demonstrate zombie pathing and block selection. I hope we actually do get some clarification from the pimps on what ideal pathing would look like and if this is it.

Meanie. Shooting Arlene in the butt with a nailgun.

Good demonstration though.

 

[Colin248]

Meanie. Shooting Arlene in the butt with a nailgun.Good demonstration though.

indeed it is a good demonstration. im hoping he keeps on exploring the ai, its fascinating to see how it works.

 

[Feycat]

I'm not a fan of random behavior as it's often requested here. To be able to plan a base and defense you have to be able to rely on a certain behavior. This doesn't have to be completely uniform but you should be able to recognize a pattern.
Against the initial hordes almost every defense works if you have enough firepower but against a big max gamestage horde only an effective and well thought out base with automatic traps works. For these traps to work effectively, however, the zombies must choose a specific path and not simply take the shortcut through the concrete wall.

Um, no. I don't have any traps on my base because the zombies avoid them. I don't even have turrets. Just spikes and walls and some pits.

I've basically got a fortress with only the tiniest AI cheese (holes in the outer walls with a 1-block deep spike pit and barbed wire to hold them there for molotovs.

Works fine.

 

[Aldranon]

Here's an interesting thing I found after I got infected and called myself dead. I finished up this fort and cheated up an AK because I wasn't sure it would work. (Cheater Base #2 against trader wall)

View attachment 27171

It worked! Not one block was seriously damaged after day 7 and day 14.

Here it is after the first horde. After killing that zed, I cheated up the day 14 and looked to see why.

They slip when they run and cant set up for their drill mode (whatever you want to call it). They will fall after a while, but here's the thing wandering hordes are more effective against this as they can sometimes set up into drill mode.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Its all about Movement and specialized zombies

As a (maybe fast) sollution for the moment i really suggest to make Vultures able to grab zombies and drop them over the bases.

Thats the fastest sollution to get Damage making zombies inside a defense area

 

[RipClaw]

Um, no. I don't have any traps on my base because the zombies avoid them.

The zombies don't avoid traps but they always take the shortest path without obstacles like walls. And they avoid height differences.

I tested this with a simple experiment. I built a corridor 11 blocks long. The walls were 2 blocks high. In front of me 5 iron spikes and behind me 5 concrete blocks so that there was no difference in height. I spawned one zombie in front of me and one behind me. The one in front of me ran directly into the spikes and the one behind me ran over the concrete blocks. If zombies would avoid traps the one in front of me would have taken a detour via the back entrance but he took the shortest path.

The reason why zombies take a clear path through a field of spikes is because they see the spikes as differences in height.

 

[Roland]

The zombies don't avoid traps but they always take the shortest way without obstacles like walls. And they avoid height differences.
I tested this with a simple experiment. I built a corridor 11 blocks long. The walls were 2 blocks high. In front of me 5 iron spikes and behind me 5 concrete blocks so that there was no difference in height. I spawned one zombie in front of me and one behind me. The one in front of me ran directly into the spikes and the one behind me ran over the concrete blocks. If zombies would avoid traps the one in front of me would have taken a detour via the back entrance but he took the shortest way.

The reason why zombies spikes are running around when an alternative free path exists is that there is no difference in height in the free path.

Which is why if you dig a trench and then lay your spikes so they are level with the ground the zombies will go into them every time. And if you dig your trench three blocks deep and then fill them with three layers of spikes....

 

[Feycat]

The zombies don't avoid traps but they always take the shortest path without obstacles like walls. And they avoid height differences.
I tested this with a simple experiment. I built a corridor 11 blocks long. The walls were 2 blocks high. In front of me 5 iron spikes and behind me 5 concrete blocks so that there was no difference in height. I spawned one zombie in front of me and one behind me. The one in front of me ran directly into the spikes and the one behind me ran over the concrete blocks. If zombies would avoid traps the one in front of me would have taken a detour via the back entrance but he took the shortest path.

The reason why zombies take a clear path through a field of spikes is because they see the spikes as differences in height.

Yeah. I said traps, and differentiated them from spikes. Also said I had 1-block pits with spikes in them, so I'm aware that they see spikes as a full block. Maybe like, read the post you reply to?

 

[Aldranon]

Which is why if you dig a trench and then lay your spikes so they are level with the ground the zombies will go into them every time. And if you dig your trench three blocks deep and then fill them with three layers of spikes....

So, if your base was at the bottom of a spike "lake" , say, 20-40 layers deep...

 

[RipClaw]

Yeah. I said traps, and differentiated them from spikes. Also said I had 1-block pits with spikes in them, so I'm aware that they see spikes as a full block. Maybe like, read the post you reply to?

I read what you wrote but it wouldn't be the first time that someone contradicts himself without noticing it. I see trap as an umbrella term that in this game covers everything that does hurt or kill zombies without the need for the player to become active.

I have also done tests with other types of traps such as blade traps, dart traps and electric fence posts. In no case did the zombies avoid the traps and take the longer path instead of the short one. Even shotgun turrets or auto turrets are not perceived as obstacles.

I guess what you mean by trap is a pitfall. The pit is avoided by the zombies because of the difference in elevation, not because it could damage them. If the player is on the bottom of the pit, they jump in even if they get damage.

- - - Updated - - -

So, if your base was at the bottom of a spike "lake" , say, 20-40 layers deep...

It would be a nightmare to fix something like this after a horde

 

[Venemox]

I made another video to demonstrate zombie pathing and block selection. I hope we actually do get some clarification from the pimps on what ideal pathing would look like and if this is it.

Very nice work. I wonder if you can cause Zeds to path through electric fences by damaging and repairing your own barriers repeatedly?