PC Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

[ktr]

imo a treasure room in each house is too much. unopened shotgun messiah crates in everyone's attic is too much too. imo. In the event of a zombie apocalypse everyone who has gunstore crates in their house would probably open them up right away lol.

I look at the 'loot rooms' much differently. They're stashes of things that people scrambled together as the infection got worse/spread. Some of them are unopened because they might have a.) not been needed yet or b.) gotten right before the people died off. Perhaps they even got an infection while getting some of those things..... The traps littering the locations, furniture barring doors or leading up to attic spaces all lend the impression of people trying to hold out against the zombs, but at some point failing.

And here I am, taking the last of their wordly possessions in order to try to keep surviving. (Seriously, I clean out everything that has value lol)

That said, if the loot gets more spread out, I'm okay with that too.

I like the new POIs. There's a good number of them with (I believe) more to come and it's nice to have a good surprise instead of walking out with 5 puffer coats (that I already had 10 of), a stack of cloth, maybe some wood, scrap metal, etc. Not bad loot, but not very inspiring nor nearly as useful from late-mid to late game. Now there's the chance to find more brass, different kinds of crates, and hidden caches that might contain some really good stuff.

 

[Roland]

There are more coming.

 

[Ornias]

I hope they randomize loot rooms in POI's Roland. With every house having 1 the gearing up becomes trivial.

 

[Roland]

Maybe they will do a pass at some point and make some with and some without.

 

[stallionsden]

You're under the influence that everybody else has the same opinion as you.
"Hence why the game is boring" - says you, not a fact.

"many only can play for a bit or play for 5 min then go nope need mods" - says you, not a fact.

"Fallout skyrim borderlands all have replayability over and over" - says you, not a fact.

"cause its not easy it doesnt hand the easy route" - says you, not a fact.

If you think all of this, then fine, that's your opinion. But stop making out like that's what every other player thinks.

Nawww where did i say everyone... i do talk to alot of people inc ex players whom share same view as to why they dont play anymore. Fb groups also people share the same view. So maybe you need to read a bit and maybe think before posting cause it just not my opinion. Even others have stated in this very thread the same views.

Thank you

 

[stallionsden]

The first paragraph I am not being sarcastic in the least. I was calling him out on his own statements that all the new gamers need it simple and dumbed down because it is what they need.


The second paragraph I wasn't trying to be insulting. I really do think that stallionsden can't put himself in the position of a new player. I think he is viewing the game through the lens of his full experience. This is something game designers have to actually be wary of lest they create something completely inaccessible. I think his own line generalizing new players is proof he is blinded to how things really are with new players. But if I hit this point too personally and too strongly then I apologize to Stallions.

The third paragraph I was sarcastic in the final line. I believe that the POI's we have now even with their warts are vastly superior to what we had during the time period stallionsden was idealizing as the better game. I agree there can be improvement and I apologize for not conceding that. I disagree that the POIs of yore are better than the ones we have now. I think they are tougher and more complex to clear even with the criticisms leveled against them.

The only reason I wrote that third paragraph was to refute stalliondens claim that everything was more complex and replayable before than now. I still don't agree with him on that point but I'm sorry for the final line of that paragraph.

I can put myself in the fact the game caters now more for new players not for the long timers. As you have stated also and referred to. There is no catering for everyone. I am not blinded by my time of playing at all.

But when a game goes from towns full of zs and people actually were afraid to go into towns and really had to pick and choose which poi they dared enter. Going between biomes and dealing with zs being a constant threat.

Having to work out what we needed ourselves to make something and time was of the essence. The game isnt challenging or catering for all players. I not stupid i know tfp did this as a business choice to get more players hence more money but they have the big finger to those whom sat by them since the start. And all we get from you is sarcastic snarky replies and infractions for stating our views. And like i said i wont care what one says to me i have thick skin. But remember how this whole thing started on my part was an insult at the long timers

All we are asking is if we get catered for to. Just like many alphas ago the 'new' players asked for the game to get dumbed down and tfp refused their views cause they then believed it was going in the right directions. Now it has switched game caters for new players and not everyone.

Like towns to be alive again. Towns become a threat again.

Dungeon pois remove the lights giving players the answer i dont know any person who would put lights down to show others where the loot is or in case they forget where they put the loot in their own homes. No sense or realism what so ever..

Randomnise the dungeon pois have multiple paths some lead to dead ends others to the players death or to the loot room if they discover the right path.

Plus what others have stated. The we cant cater for the long timers is a cheap response and many other game (well not all but most) does it why cant 7 dtd cater for the whole player group. Newbs thru to long timers.

Ps: i didnt write this across many threads i wrote it in one and you moved it. Also replying to others that had posted in the dev diary. So there was no posting in multiple threads and been in here ever since.

 

[Roland]

I can put myself in the fact the game caters now more for new players not for the long timers. As you have stated also and referred to. There is no catering for everyone. I am not blinded by my time of playing at all.
But when a game goes from towns full of zs and people actually were afraid to go into towns and really had to pick and choose which poi they dared enter. Going between biomes and dealing with zs being a constant threat.

Having to work out what we needed ourselves to make something and time was of the essence. The game isnt challenging or catering for all players. I not stupid i know tfp did this as a business choice to get more players hence more money but they have the big finger to those whom sat by them since the start.

Honestly, you are conflating two separate issues and lumping it all into one. First of all there are technology limits that have nothing to do with catering to one type of player over another. The fact that the game at one point had lots of zombies is proof that this is what TFP wants. They have scaled back, however, in order to get a handle on framerate and performance over all. Madmole has said repeatedly that once they have the game playing well for the majority of players out there they will look at increasing things like entities alive and number of players supported. We just haven't gotten to that point yet. Madmole has also said that they are looking into dynamically putting zombies in our pathway so that it seems like lots of zombies everywhere without there actually being zombies everywhere.

Secondly they are trying to make the game more accessible. Madmole assures us that there will be ample modding tools to complexify everything to our satisfaction. We have to take that part on faith because we won't know if they will deliver until they do. There are a lot of cool hooks that aren't enabled yet in the xml so we can see that there are plans in place but how extensively we will be able to alter things is still an unknown.

And all we get from you is sarcastic snarky replies and infractions for stating our views.

That is wholly unfair. I do wax sarcastic from time to time. Kubikus was able to find one post from me that had a single sarcastic line at the end. I even predicted to you that you would be dishonest about why you got your infraction. I explained to you the specifics about your infraction and none of it was for stating your view of the game and where you believe TFP has gone wrong. And then I said you would surely claim, however, that you were given an infraction for your criticism. If that were true you would've maxed out on infractions and been banned because of all the criticism you have been posting since then. What you haven't done is repeated what I warned you about which is why you are still here and why anyone can see you were not given an infraction for expressing your views.

And like i said i wont care what one says to me i have thick skin. But remember how this whole thing started on my part was an insult at the long timers
All we are asking is if we get catered for to. Just like many alphas ago the 'new' players asked for the game to get dumbed down and tfp refused their views cause they then believed it was going in the right directions. Now it has switched game caters for new players and not everyone.

I don't remember a single post ever in the dev diary asking Joel to please dumb down the game. Every single time TFP did it they were met by a hailstorm of backlash here in the forums. We even refer to them as #gates because it is so well known and funny. The art team changed the art on the wrench and Joel showed it and we actually had Wrenchgate...

Like towns to be alive again. Towns become a threat again.
Dungeon pois remove the lights giving players the answer i dont know any person who would put lights down to show others where the loot is or in case they forget where they put the loot in their own homes. No sense or realism what so ever..

Randomnise the dungeon pois have multiple paths some lead to dead ends others to the players death or to the loot room if they discover the right path.

I agree with all of these points. I have no beef with what you want. I want it too. Guppy did an all call for medieval structures back when he was working on his mod. Why don't you start a project and ask people to turn in versions of the POI's with the lights removed. Then you could put it out as a pack for those of us who would rather play without the light hints.

Plus what others have stated. The we cant cater for the long timers is a cheap response and many other game (well not all but most) does it why cant 7 dtd cater for the whole player group. Newbs thru to long timers.

You may not agree with it but it isn't a cheap response. It is a responsible response. I'm sorry it disappoints and angers you but they are being smart. And as for replayability and longevity just look at steamcharts and you can see that A18 is enjoying greater longevity than any alpha before. You may say that most of them are probably playing it modded-- but if so it is modded based on the A18 structure and people are having fun.

Ps: i didnt write this across many threads i wrote it in one and you moved it. Also replying to others that had posted in the dev diary. So there was no posting in multiple threads and been in here ever since.

I wasn't talking about the Dev Diary. You made snarky comments in favor of your point in a few other threads including one in the Pimp Dreams section, and two of the poll threads and maybe more. I wasn't following you around, I just noticed you using every opportunity to dump whenever responding to other people. I think someone else even got irritated that you were doing it and told you to stop....

Now, I've tried to play things straight with this response. I don't agree with you on a lot of your claims and I really don't agree with you misrepresenting your infraction but I have tried to be respectful in my reply and not be snarky or sarcastic at all. Even Grammarly says my tone is fine though I'm not going back and fixing all the mistakes it claims...

 

[stallionsden]

Honestly, you are conflating two separate issues and lumping it all into one. First of all there are technology limits that have nothing to do with catering to one type of player over another. The fact that the game at one point had lots of zombies is proof that this is what TFP wants. They have scaled back, however, in order to get a handle on framerate and performance over all. Madmole has said repeatedly that once they have the game playing well for the majority of players out there they will look at increasing things like entities alive and number of players supported. We just haven't gotten to that point yet. Madmole has also said that they are looking into dynamically putting zombies in our pathway so that it seems like lots of zombies everywhere without there actually being zombies everywhere.
Secondly they are trying to make the game more accessible. Madmole assures us that there will be ample modding tools to complexify everything to our satisfaction. We have to take that part on faith because we won't know if they will deliver until they do. There are a lot of cool hooks that aren't enabled yet in the xml so we can see that there are plans in place but how extensively we will be able to alter things is still an unknown.

Modding capabilities of the game I have never once stated were lacking, as I have said that is one thing i do actually believe TFP will deliver. the dev diary has always been about the vanilla game. yes there has been mentions here n there of mods etc but purely it is for the improvements and additions of the vanilla game. When a long timer states something we get the they cant add stuff to please us cause of our seasoned etc but we give posts about ways that can level out the game for all and we get shut down for lack of better words by the new ones who havent known how alive the game use to be prior nor the challenges they had prior. I know a18 has added alot of great items and blocks etc to the game and modding abilities is awesome but the game play has been left behind.

That is wholly unfair. I do wax sarcastic from time to time. Kubikus was able to find one post from me that had a single sarcastic line at the end. I even predicted to you that you would be dishonest about why you got your infraction. I explained to you the specifics about your infraction and none of it was for stating your view of the game and where you believe TFP has gone wrong. And then I said you would surely claim, however, that you were given an infraction for your criticism. If that were true you would've maxed out on infractions and been banned because of all the criticism you have been posting since then. What you haven't done is repeated what I warned you about which is why you are still here and why anyone can see you were not given an infraction for expressing your views.

No I wast just talking bout my infractions I know others whom got it and I am scratching my head as they were false infractions unfortunately I cant repeat or show this particular infraction but it was a joke and by far unwarranted. In relation to mine I told you simple i wont stand for anyone insulting another including the "host of the site" I stand against it even if it leads me to being banned. But I also believe my infraction was cause I spoke the truth on the M part, but i wont iterate it cause it will lead me to another infraction. I am from australia and I am sorry i can take a bit of criticism and that I have a thick skin and really dont care what people think of me never have never will. I have a permanent hip disability and i get made fun of and my kids dont understand why i just full on laugh at those idiots cause i find it funny not offensive and it ticks them off more their bs dont float or have any affect on me. But for a "host" to do it towards others who may not have the same skin as me or others it can hurt and they take things to heart or as in the they just give up and just keep doing what they been doing without the stress of rejection etc from trying to post bugs etc. (if I crossed the line here sorry trying to explain that. I wasnt being dishonest with the why i got it just not my infraction. )

I don't remember a single post ever in the dev diary asking Joel to please dumb down the game. Every single time TFP did it they were met by a hailstorm of backlash here in the forums. We even refer to them as #gates because it is so well known and funny. The art team changed the art on the wrench and Joel showed it and we actually had Wrenchgate...

Argh you have to go back to a8/a9 places - I hate my brain i remember things from a long time ago but cant remember why i went into the damn kitchen....

I agree with all of these points. I have no beef with what you want. I want it too. Guppy did an all call for medieval structures back when he was working on his mod. Why don't you start a project and ask people to turn in versions of the POI's with the lights removed. Then you could put it out as a pack for those of us who would rather play without the light hints.

Point taken on this one but I bet you tfp doing this and having it part of the vanilla would spice up the game for everyone alot of people even the new players some have said the dungeon pois need to be randomised and improved. However also then we are again relying on mods to make the game better, Mods should add the already challenging vanilla game not be a requirement cause the vanilla game has gotten bored after 5 mins

You may not agree with it but it isn't a cheap response. It is a responsible response. I'm sorry it disappoints and angers you but they are being smart. And as for replayability and longevity just look at steamcharts and you can see that A18 is enjoying greater longevity than any alpha before. You may say that most of them are probably playing it modded-- but if so it is modded based on the A18 structure and people are having fun.

you cant compare sales figures of a18 as to any. Yes you sold so many millions a copies. How many of those were from console coming over to pc cause telltale F**cked over alot of people. How many of those millions picked up the game and then played and stopped playing cause they got bored. How many of those were extra copies some folk bought their family and friends and get some dont play. I bought my kids a copy each and my mate bought his kids a copy each.... guess how many of those kids (so 7 kids, 3 adults) just me after a17. my son played a little bit of a18 pure vanilla he hates mods and wont play with mods. maybe 40 min the whole 2 years maybe an hr to 2. you cant base the path of the game on those figures cause you cant get a measure on the WHOLE audience cause majority arent even on this forum.

I wasn't talking about the Dev Diary. You made snarky comments in favor of your point in a few other threads including one in the Pimp Dreams section, and two of the poll threads and maybe more. I wasn't following you around, I just noticed you using every opportunity to dump whenever responding to other people. I think someone else even got irritated that you were doing it and told you to stop....

I simply answered the post question. - Which biome do you prefer i answered a5 to a16 why cause there was life in those biomes. There isnt any life in a17 or a18. so I can not answer the latest biomes are my favourite. and wont cause of the lifelessness of them. I must a missed the one where they asked me to stop... (Admit i prolly wouldnt cause i was simply responding truthfully to the question) but I will look at those threads to see where they asked me to stop..

Now, I've tried to play things straight with this response. I don't agree with you on a lot of your claims and I really don't agree with you misrepresenting your infraction but I have tried to be respectful in my reply and not be snarky or sarcastic at all. Even Grammarly says my tone is fine though I'm not going back and fixing all the mistakes it claims...

No your response was ok this time actually good. Except you stating i was being dishonest with my infraction claim. happy to post it so everyone can see it but I prolly crossed a line standing up for others and getting annoyed that the "host" could so easily insult those that have walked next to him since the start of time i accept my infraction but i will stand up to it as well in the future regardless who you are or what your title is. Altho I not near a good writer as others I try to get my point across.

 

[stallionsden]

Actually pretty sure it was this thread that someone told me to stop but this thread is exactly for this discussion

 

[Roland]

Just for clarity I’m not talking about sales figures. I’m talking about number of people playing the game. The number of people playing the game is up and has been up for longer than it ever has been. We’ve passed the point where it usually dipped back down to 11-15k players in the past and are still maintaining above 20k.

Perhaps it is all new players picking it up each month as old ones quit and perhaps they are all playing mods and perhaps they are all playing Alpha 16 but I don’t think so. Just my opinion.

 

[KhaineGB]

In my opinion having the loot distributed around the POI is the best solution since Madmole said having a randomized location isn’t an option at this point. I wouldn’t like an unbreakable chest. It’s bad enough we have an unbreakable POI (trader). Let’s not have other unbreakables in this game that is all about breaking anything.

Question.

Did he say WHY?

Because the fetch satchel block is randomized. If that's because it's tied to the quest system, then could we not also tie the loot boxes into the quest system? So they only spawn if you have a quest for the POI (but the rest of the room remains so there is still a reason to hit the POI without quests)

 

[Roland]

Here are the relevent quotes that I was going off of:

It would be great if the dungeon POI system were modular to reduce the samey feel every time. It would have to go hand-in-hand with removing the trail of light, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
That's really the only solution to, "Been there, done that."

Its just not possible for this game without a full redesign of the tools. Fallout and Skyrim are still fun with the exact same map, every single play through. Its like asking for a new game really. The issue with random dungeons is those can lose their personality if not done right.

Would it be something that would be considered for the sequel right from the very beginning? If you can't have some randomization in the dungeons for this game that would be a nice upgrade for the next one.
Another idea I've read is creating duplicates of existing dungeons but altering where the loot room is and the sleeper locations as well. Is that something that would be considered for this game by TFP or left to modders to create as a prefab pack?

We're all for more procedural and random systemic design so yeah. That doesn't mean it confirmed, it just means yeah we generally like that kind of stuff.
Loot room overhaul, not really. We could spend a lot of hours on that, or just keep cranking out POIS. We can make a framework for mod authors to upload their pois to workshop. Then users can have 1000's of POIS. THere is no way you will remember the loot room in 1,000's of POIS. Hell the map might only load a small % of them. Then its like a new game every time, with loads of new POIS you have never seen.

He doesn't really say why-- just that they would rather have a huge number of POI's than try and randomize the existing ones in any way.

 

[KhaineGB]

Ooooh, I see. That was more about randomizing the entire POI.

Might be worth floating the idea of just randomizing where the main loot box is. Leave the rest of the room alone. That way it might encourage players to look through the POI rather than just nerd-pole straight to all the loot.

 

[Kubikus]

The first paragraph I am not being sarcastic in the least. I was calling him out on his own statements that all the new gamers need it simple and dumbed down because it is what they need.
The second paragraph I wasn't trying to be insulting. I really do think that stallionsden can't put himself in the position of a new player. I think he is viewing the game through the lens of his full experience. This is something game designers have to actually be wary of lest they create something completely inaccessible. I think his own line generalizing new players is proof he is blinded to how things really are with new players. But if I hit this point too personally and too strongly then I apologize to Stallions.

The third paragraph I was sarcastic in the final line. I believe that the POI's we have now even with their warts are vastly superior to what we had during the time period stallionsden was idealizing as the better game. I agree there can be improvement and I apologize for not conceding that. I disagree that the POIs of yore are better than the ones we have now. I think they are tougher and more complex to clear even with the criticisms leveled against them.

The only reason I wrote that third paragraph was to refute stalliondens claim that everything was more complex and replayable before than now. I still don't agree with him on that point but I'm sorry for the final line of that paragraph.

This is your request:

Show me where I attacked stallions over his actual criticism. I got snarky with him over his tone and insults and spamming multiple threads with his viewpoint before all of this was moved from the dev diary to here. But if you can find where I posted an ad hominem against him for saying that the game is too easy now because of everything being dumbed down for new players I would be interested to see it and apologize for it.

I have delivered. If you disagree - ask an English teacher of your school to read the post and give a characterisation. I'm pretty sure they won't disagree with my assessment. Of course, if you really need and want me to, I can explain that assessment, but just look back at your mood when you wrote it.

And see, I'm not stallion's guardian or the local moral police. What you said about him, or better, the attitude with which you (and Gazz, though he was not as harsh) treated him and his opinion, kinda also reflected on me, because I share the opinion. I found that - quite mildly, of course - upsetting.

The question why the player count is higher than ever is not simply answered. We don't know where the count would be if the mechanics us older players miss would be combined with the new features we applaud. The game certainly feels more polished and complete now than it ever did, so my guess is that that's why more people play it. And if I was a new player now - I might also get hooked. It's still a great game, I mean, I'm frowining upon me "only" putting 150 hours into the last two alphas. Which is, see, one game per alpha, because of the missing replay value.

 

[Kubikus]

Ooooh, I see. That was more about randomizing the entire POI.
Might be worth floating the idea of just randomizing where the main loot box is. Leave the rest of the room alone. That way it might encourage players to look through the POI rather than just nerd-pole straight to all the loot.

There should not be a main box to begin with. Spread it out.
Only when you have a kill-em-all quest a final reward is reasonable.

 

[GameOverMan]

I have been here since Alpha 1 and I while the game is NOT boring to me, I must say, the game does feel as if it is catering more to new players and simplifying everything. I loved the early days where you didnt get to see any craft menu until you experimented and unlocked it. You didnt know what you could cook until you tried it.

Those were fun times. And raw food and some cooked food would bring zombies on you from every which way. Hell 2200 every day was a time you dreaded and feared. Now, eh, not a threat at all.

The only thing that is a threat to me, is when I walk into a building, there is no zombies, but when I do a 1 80, suddenly 10 zombies are in the hallway, which there is no possible way they could have gotten there, as 1 way in and out, but some delayed sleeper mechanic being called a "feature" that I think of more as an annoying bug, since it magically pops zombies on you.

But I have hope they will fix it before release. Overall though, I like A18 alot better than A16 and A17

 

[Shin]

Sold out as in selling out their integrity for the big $$$$$. Shin feels TFP has abandoned the original soul and vision of the game in order to make more money.

Even if I disagree with you at most times and matters I must say this, You do have an impressive way of remembering/looking up what people have said/done on this forum.

Even with my meager postcount and random apperances you remember.

Hats off for that and to be clear for others you are absolutely right in your answer.

 

[Ac75]

So this thread took a turn, and is now summarized as "A16 (or insert your favorite pre-A17 alpha here) was better than this".
I think many of us knew this.

I think many of us have been saying it for a long time.

A16 all the way - I’m gonna do Darkness Falls

 

[Jihh]

I reach my end game on the first day. Which is having a gun and enough ammo to go anywhere.

That's a very strange concept of endgame, considering that before A18 you could easily kill everything with the first bow you craft in the first two minutes of the game. Yes, for later zeds you needed a higher quality, but at that time you could craft that higher quality, just like you find a better quality gun at the time the zeds get harder now.

So if having a weapon and ammo that is capable of killing zeds safely is your understanding of endgame, than A15 to A17 (I started with A15, so I don't know about previous alphas, but as far as I read here in the forum many loved A16) had a way shorter early and mid game than A18.

Bow, clubs (and crosswbows) were so strong in A15 to A17, that I didn't even use any guns aside from testing purposes.

Imho endgame is when I'm fully geared as I wish, my base is screamer and wandering hordes proof (meaning: I don't need to step outside to defend), my bloodmoon base is at a state where it holds 2-3 bloodmoons without repair, my mine has access to all ores, I have a vehicle and I have at least one of each working stations.

In A15 I reached that point in the first week, with bad luck in the second.

In A16 I reached that point in the third week.

In A17 I reached that point in third to fourth week.

In A18 in depends on what build I decide on, but I haven't reached it before the fourth week yet.

Solo games with 60 minute days. Of course I'm faster in my coop games or with longer days.

I fail to see how finding a gun early is the problem here. Especially since I found guns in toilets on the first day in previous alphas too, but didn't use them due to the overpowered bows and clubs. Effectively I was stronger (compared to the zeds at the time) on the first day in A15 through A17 than I am on the first day in A18. That said, Roland already said that there is a nerf to looting weapons in the work, so even if an early gun were a big problem, it would only be temporary and will be fixed.

 

[erlgrey]

It feels just wrong finding the ak with some ammo on day 1 or 2 while it takes ages to get a regular wooden bow.

I usually find lvl 5 or 6 ak or even m60 before a compound bow of any level, sure "random" but that's just what I expirience over and over again.

With 0 variation in zed ai behaviour it's clear how you have to build, once you found it out once.

You get especially guns quite fast, the game turns into ammo grinding very early imo and that is pretty much it.

Jumpscare factor gone for me almost entirely in a18 too.

I guess I would want more zeds overall, balanced with lower block dmg, more ai variation, more reasonable skill and gear progression.

on the technical side I hope that the hit detection gets improved at some point.

Not looking forward to barely anything of upcoming changes, except for improved lightning. But this drones and sledgeturret stuff, well, at least no bobble heads..