PC Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

I almost never craft while I'm in danger, because that's just stupid. So how does this add any challenge to the game or makes it "scarier"? Therefor crafting grids are just a waste of time, they don't add a challenge or complexity. You could argue that crafting grids make crafting slower and therefor is a form of crafting time balance. But it's even better to balance crafting times by changing the times directly.
cause there isnt any danger in a17/a18..... and well thats cause everything is given to you easily... back then you had to actually work for things and run out of things like arrows or what not and you have a actual horde coming at yo. but you needed to actually play those alphas to understand .

I'm pretty sure aside from creative mode players nobody enjoys empty towns, but as Madmole explained multiple times and others (including mods and developers) repeated it: It is due to technical limits and it is worked on. So that emptyness isn't supposed to stay in the game, it's just a problem we have to deal with temporary. Since the game still is in alpha that's something that can happen. So either we deal with it, or we play previous alphas in the meantime. It has nothing to do with the game allegedly getting boring.

we had a crap tonne of zs previously... no excuses sorry it makes the game boring having no fear threat in game no need to work hard for things or use your head to craft etc.... the lack of zs in a zombie game ..................

Yes they aren't as exciting as they were the first time. But it's not like the old POI had a better longevity. On the contrary, they got old even faster, so while there is room for improvement (and since the game isn't done yet improvements aren't out of the picture) they are still better than the old POI. TFP just need to nerf the loot rooms and weapon loot overall.
Your very incorrect but it was a suggestion also to make the game better and more replayable and actually fix that issue of the game... having to visit the dungeon poi is repetitive and boring after the first or second visit. repetitive and down right boring part of the game cause you know where things are. If you actually read the lights of the dungeon poi is more so tho what i was talking bout giving the players the answers to which path to go. remove the lights and you have a better outcome in the game. rather then again giving the answers to the players. so you are dead wrong there :-) nothing to do with nerfing that wont fix anything once again wrong. randomising and removing the lights that give the path will how ever improve the excitement as well as adding new game play that is exciting and again replayable.

 
So unless you have godlike skills of a degree that I have never seen and never even heard of before, you might be talking about knowing how to avoid danger.
I tend to not pull all zombies at once. But even when I happen to pull more than I want to, I seldom die. Not counting my 50 hours in the game I usually die once (or twice with bad luck) per game and play on average 70-100 days (with 60 minutes each) per game. Even in my A15 game on highest difficulty with zombies running day and night and my base next to the central city I died once (due to an accidently missclick) in somewhat over 80 days with (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes a day (yes I had longer days, because I expected it to be more challenging).

Zombies aren't the challenge in the game. Not doing stupid things are the challenge. Almost all of my deaths after I knew all mechanics were due to doing stupid things.

For example is there a POI that has a zombie bear. I would not go there with only a bow and a club.
Why though? Clear the zombies from a range where the bears won't trigger and afterwards they are easily manageable. Use obstacles to your advantage like you would do in real life.

the problem of having a gun with enough ammo on the first day exactly arrived with the release of A17. It was no problem before.
But before A17 the bow was overpowered af. Clubs and sledgehammers even more. In A18 I'll have to find a gun to be as strong as I were in A15/16 after crafting a bow, a stone axe (to get a handful of iron from a few rocks in order to craft a better club) and a club. So how is an early gun in A17/18 a bigger problem than the overpowered bows and clubs were in A15/16? In the end in both cases you had/have a powerful weapon on day 1. I feel like you aren't looking at the actual power those weapons provide in the game in the respective alphas, but at the power those weapons would provide in real life. But important for the balance and thus challenge of the game is the actual ingame power in relation to the respective alpha.

The early A18 gun just takes the spot the early A15 bow had, while the early A18 bow is weaker. So while I agree that there is too much ammo in the game right now (especially since I don't even use it, but friends do and they can't use it as fast as I produce, loot and buy it), it actually makes sense to provide the A18 gun with the same amount of ammo the A15 bow had. But since TFP is looking at the numbers and probably will nerf ammo gains (if I understood it correctly) that's just a temporary problem. That can happen in a game that's still in alpha.

So you agree that there is way too much good loot in the early game. Where else would I get the gun then?
I don't understand the question. At the same places you get it now, just later and with a lower chance and a lesser quality.

And the bar I set never seemed low before. Before, it would take roughly two ingame weeks to get a proper gun and a steady flow of ammo going
And back then we had a more vertical design, while the game now aims for multiple tiers among several weapon types. The gun is supposed to be a comparatively weak weapon (t1), balance just isn't done yet.

, with 1 hour days that's 14 hours. A pretty good early game. It was necessary to craft the ammo, that's a major reason, plus you had to find certain recipes.

I was always missing a somewhat clearly defined mid game, maybe I could define that as the phase where I still do not have stuff that I would like to have. These days, that would mostly be the motorcycle. But then again, it's just a convenience piece of no essential relevance.

In this case, the treasure rooms that enable the player to find great gear very early on.
But as Roland already said, they are looking into it.

If you have never played an alpha that has these different cell-hub-types - I'm not sure when these were removed, before the introduction of sleeper I believe - I recommend going back to such an alpha and try that out, you don't know what you're missing (though that might even be a case of "ignorance is bliss", eh). It's certainly in A14 and earlier.
I'm not sure, if I understood that correctly, but if you are talking about outside zombies:

Sleeper zombies were introduced in A16 along with fewer outside zombies. I had more outside zombies in A15 and yes I actually miss them a lot. But I already adressed that in the part you quoted:"At least if we ignore the lack of outside zeds, but as we know that's work in progress."

So I agree that this is a problem the game has right now, but since it's subject to change, we just have to wait. It's not like they aren't coming back ever. Does it hurt A18? Definitely! But judging the overall direction of a game on things that are temporary gone in an alpha, doesn't really make sense.

I look at it from the survivalist perspective: I reach endgame when I'm certain I will survive any situation. And once I have that pistol with enough ammo, I'm certain I will survive any situation. Food is no problem anyway, and with a gun, no enemy is either. Ergo: Endgame.
So a bow and a club were endgame in A15.

If you knew where the next weapon cache is
How would you know that in an unknown house? The only reason you know it in the game is because you were in the house before in another game.

could be certain how zombies behave (and it would be easy to construct IRL reasons why you would know that)
You could never be certain. It's like those people who keep dangerous pets. On some cases never something happens on other cases it does, no matter how certain they were about how their pets behave. In a life or death situation like we have in the game I would never count on all zombies behaving the same way.

And therefor, a design that makes these things as forseeable as they are now, is inferior to one that makes these things not as forseeable.
Then let's hope they will spread the loot all over the POI and get rid of loot rooms.

Which means that if you do not like things to be forseeable - and I like things not to be forseeable - you dislike the current design.
Yes, I don't like loot rooms. I mean I usually clear houses completely, but of course I know where the loot is and thus there is some incentive to just go there. But it's not the loot rooms that take away the challenge, but my knowledge where those loot rooms are and how to get to them without encountering zombies. Even if they would get rid of those loot rooms and distribute the loot over the whole houses there still would be some rooms more interesting than others. In a game where we can destroy everything with ease and nerdpole to any height we want to, they can never keep us from using knowledge we wouldn't have in real life. That's the price we pay for the freedom we have. And that problem already existed in previous alphas.

It's just bad design that the ai is this forseeable and easy to outsmart, it's unjustified to blame the player for not "roleplaying" ignorance of the obvious.
Aside from how difficult (if even possible with the power average computer provide) it is to make an ai outsmart players, it would be bad lore design if zombies would outsmart players. So of course we are supposed to outsmart zombies. But there is a difference between playing the game and playing the system. I mean you do you, I don't care how you play your game. But complaining about a lack of challenge when you are playing the (not even done) system, is something I don't understand.

I don't even get why you are calling it roleplaying to play the game instead of the system. I guess we have a completely different take on what games are and I don't think that any alpha will ever meet your expectations, since alphas usually are in a state where playing the system is at easy as it gets, since preventing it isn't the highest priority.

But I can still explain why I don't like what I don't like about A17+.
Of course you can. I did it too. I was discussing the crafting situation (no Q6 crafting) and how overpowered Lucky Looter is. Roland was stating that loot numbers are being looked at, but that it will take some time. I'm still not convinced that tweaking some numbers will actually solve the problems I have, but there is no point to further discuss it until those tweaks are in and tested.

That said, many of the problems mentioned in this thread are work in progress as well and many others are related to the game being still in alpha. Some actually are just due to is playing the game for thousands of hours already.

 
Your very incorrect but it was a suggestion also to make the game better and more replayable and actually fix that issue of the game... having to visit the dungeon poi is repetitive and boring after the first or second visit. repetitive and down right boring part of the game cause you know where things are. If you actually read the lights of the dungeon poi is more so tho what i was talking bout giving the players the answers to which path to go. remove the lights and you have a better outcome in the game. rather then again giving the answers to the players. so you are dead wrong there :-) nothing to do with nerfing that wont fix anything once again wrong. randomising and removing the lights that give the path will how ever improve the excitement as well as adding new game play that is exciting and again replayable.
I have the feeling you misunderstood my post.

You were stating multiple times in this thread that the game is less challenging than it was in previous alphas. One of the reasons you are naming is how the paths in the new POI are easy to find. You are also saying that those POI don't provide replayability.

I was adressing those points. The paths in the old POI were even easier to find, since you could reach each room at any time. There was no path, there was just easy and instant access to every room in the house. Yes the new POI aren't a big challenge, but the old ones weren't challenging as well.

But more important is the second part, since that's what I quoted: You said that they lack replayability. While I do agree that they get old over time, my point is that the old POI got old even faster, since as I already said you had easy and instant access to all rooms back then. So while you are right that the current POI can be improved, they still provide more replayability than the old POI.

But I'll have to ask, since you didn't actually respond on my point (the old POI got old faster than the new POI do), why exactly is that "very incorrect" and am I "dead wrong"?

 
I have the feeling you misunderstood my post.You were stating multiple times in this thread that the game is less challenging than it was in previous alphas. One of the reasons you are naming is how the paths in the new POI are easy to find. You are also saying that those POI don't provide replayability.

I was adressing those points. The paths in the old POI were even easier to find, since you could reach each room at any time. There was no path, there was just easy and instant access to every room in the house. Yes the new POI aren't a big challenge, but the old ones weren't challenging as well.

But more important is the second part, since that's what I quoted: You said that they lack replayability. While I do agree that they get old over time, my point is that the old POI got old even faster, since as I already said you had easy and instant access to all rooms back then. So while you are right that the current POI can be improved, they still provide more replayability than the old POI.

But I'll have to ask, since you didn't actually respond on my point (the old POI got old faster than the new POI do), why exactly is that "very incorrect" and am I "dead wrong"?
Cause the old pois had zs around them they actually provided challenge to get into. I never said i dont like the addition of the new dungeon pois was excited when i knew they were coming but unfort the execution of them were poor. As in all the stuff i mentioned previously.

But they are also catered for the new players to make the game very easy. But with the imrovements we have mentioned that element will add longevity to the replayability. Then add actual zs in around them etc

 
Cause the old pois had zs around them they actually provided challenge to get into.
Not really. Breaking a door and placing a wood frame on the floor inside where the door was would keep them out long enough to easily loot the house. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have more zombies in the yard around the house. I've modded my game to get that, in fact.

But, there were serious problems with the POI's as they used to be that made them inferior, in my opinion, to what we have now. That said, I'm not trying to diminish or stifle the call to improve what we have now.

Here are the problems of the past as I saw them:

1) Zombies inside the house came out immediately, leaving the house empty because they weren't asleep and when one zombie knew where you were all of them did.

2) Zombies outside the house were easily blocked from coming in. Just fill the door with wood blocks and you would have plenty of time to loot everything and get out before any zombies could get in. Running around until all the zombies came out and then barricading the door and looting the open shell of an interior was neither challenging nor an uncommon tactic.

3) Zombie pathing was trash. I've read a lot of mixed reviews for the new zombie pathing in regards to Horde Night but almost universal praise for how the pathing has enhanced POI exploration since the zombies feel relentless as they come for you. Zombies from outside almost never could break into the POI to get you and if they did then they were horrible at navigating the POI to get to where you were. Now, if one does come from outside there is a very good chance that in a few minutes it will be behind you coming from where you thought it was clear. Yes, the odd one or two will choose a bizarre path to get to you instead of just walking through the open door next to it but for the most part the way zombies path to you through POIs make it more thrilling.

4) Any and all threats in a room viewable and killable from the doorway. This was mostly true during the time that we had sleepers but very few dungeon POI's. Most of the POI's were still the old style and all the sleepers were just lying there out in the open and easily dispatched from the door before even entering the room. Before that it made no difference because any zombies that spawned indoors would bust their way outside and the POIs were largely empty as you explored. Even in the way back time when zombies would run when in shade or indoors you could go to the factory in the wasteland and enter it and they would all drop from above and rush you and if you exited the factory they would follow (suddenly walking) and the whole big (completely open) place would be empty. Barricade the door they all came out of and loot away.

Now, that doesn't mean I like the light path, or half of all loot containers being open and static blocks, or obvious zombie closets etc.

 
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Not really. Breaking a door and placing a wood frame on the floor inside where the door was would keep them out long enough to easily loot the house. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have more zombies in the yard around the house. I've modded my game to get that, in fact.
But, there were serious problems with the POI's as they used to be that made them inferior, in my opinion, to what we have now. That said, I'm not trying to diminish or stifle the call to improve what we have now.

Here are the problems of the past as I saw them:

1) Zombies inside the house came out immediately, leaving the house empty because they weren't asleep and when one zombie knew where you were all of them did.

2) Zombies outside the house were easily blocked from coming in. Just fill the door with wood blocks and you would have plenty of time to loot everything and get out before any zombies could get in. Running around until all the zombies came out and then barricading the door and looting the open shell of an interior was neither challenging nor an uncommon tactic.

3) Zombie pathing was trash. I've read a lot of mixed reviews for the new zombie pathing in regards to Horde Night but almost universal praise for how the pathing has enhanced POI exploration since the zombies feel relentless as they come for you. Zombies from outside almost never could break into the POI to get you and if they did then they were horrible at navigating the POI to get to where you were. Now, if one does come from outside there is a very good chance that in a few minutes it will be behind you coming from where you thought it was clear. Yes, the odd one or two will choose a bizarre path to get to you instead of just walking through the open door next to it but for the most part the way zombies path to you through POIs make it more thrilling.

4) Any and all threats in a room viewable and killable from the doorway. This was mostly true during the time that we had sleepers but very few dungeon POI's. Most of the POI's were still the old style and all the sleepers were just lying there out in the open and easily dispatched from the door before even entering the room. Before that it made no difference because any zombies that spawned indoors would bust their way outside and the POIs were largely empty as you explored. Even in the way back time when zombies would run when in shade or indoors you could go to the factory in the wasteland and enter it and they would all drop from above and rush you and if you exited the factory they would follow (suddenly walking) and the whole big (completely open) place would be empty. Barricade the door they all came out of and loot away.

Now, that doesn't mean I like the light path, or half of all loot containers being open and static blocks, or obvious zombie closets etc.
Ok you nor understand. What i was pointing at was the life around the pois. Nothing to do with the actual poi itself.... but least those pois didnt have the path lit up where to go etc either.

The dungeon pois were a fantastic addition but poorly executed and the lights floored the possible greatness they could have been to those old pois but the life has vanished from around the house.

Understand now lol. Previous alphas were harder as there was life. Now if you mix the life of previous alphas with this you have life and more challenge before entering.

The zs also damaged blocks to get in back then to if you didnt kill them all before entering.

 
I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.

Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.

 
I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.
Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.
Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.

Been mentioned a few times also this will solve that memorising paths etc and also have a few paths in the poi one way be the right way but the other 2 lead to traps/dead ends and have zs wake up when you chose the wrong path they come from behind ypu making your way blocked and thus exciting scary and makes the player chose carefully

 
What i was pointing at was the life around the pois.
As far as we know that's something that is worked on, so I don't really get the problem here. Wouldn't make more sense to wait and see how that turns out rather than acting as if it is a design direction to exclude outside zombies? In the end it's an alpha, so it's normal that some things are temporary. Thanks to how TFP handles the early access we have the chance to play a previous alpha if in the current alpha something is gone we consider vital to the game.

but least those pois didnt have the path lit up where to go etc either.
They didn't need to, since you had instant access to every corner of a house. The current POI have a somewhat restricted access and some hazards like breaking floors and mines. If that isn't already an improvement, I don't know what is. Of course there still is room for more improvement, but you acting like it's a deterioration.

Understand now lol. Previous alphas were harder as there was life.
I only know about A15, A16 and A17, but at least those weren't actually harder. They were more lively (at least A15 was) and I prefer it that way, but clearing POI was a joke in A15. Do a circle around the house to collect all zombies, line them up and club through them isn't challenging. Afterwards making a step into the house, alarm the zombies and kill them all when they leave the house isn't challenging as well. Even if something went wrong you could easily just jump onto your bike (since you are already outside and thus near your bike) drive away and get yourself patched up. Also that tactic wasn't even needed due to zombies being easy to kill anyway.

Now in A18 you have to actively reduce the numbers of zombies you pull at once, since you often have to fight in small rooms and there is no bike for safety beneath you. Some routes include plattforming, so while it is possible to lure zombies in less condensed spaces you often have to create a path first, so you don't accidently walk into a mine or fall down and break your leg.

The zs also damaged blocks to get in back then to if you didnt kill them all before entering.
And as soon as outside zombies are added back into the game they will do that as well. They also will be even more efficient than they were before due to the improved ai.

I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.
Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.
This! Including the Ryoga Hibiki friend.

 
Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.
Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?

 
As far as we know that's something that is worked on, so I don't really get the problem here. Wouldn't make more sense to wait and see how that turns out rather than acting as if it is a design direction to exclude outside zombies? In the end it's an alpha, so it's normal that some things are temporary. Thanks to how TFP handles the early access we have the chance to play a previous alpha if in the current alpha something is gone we consider vital to the game.
I dont need a lecture on what an alpha is i understand what an alpha is. You obviously completely miss the whole points of this thread completely and this also isnt the first alpha i been in or am involved in..

They didn't need to, since you had instant access to every corner of a house. The current POI have a somewhat restricted access and some hazards like breaking floors and mines. If that isn't already an improvement, I don't know what is. Of course there still is room for more improvement, but you acting like it's a deterioration.

Again you totally miss the points again and have no clue

I only know about A15, A16 and A17, but at least those weren't actually harder. They were more lively (at least A15 was) and I prefer it that way, but clearing POI was a joke in A15. Do a circle around the house to collect all zombies, line them up and club through them isn't challenging. Afterwards making a step into the house, alarm the zombies and kill them all when they leave the house isn't challenging as well. Even if something went wrong you could easily just jump onto your bike (since you are already outside and thus near your bike) drive away and get yourself patched up. Also that tactic wasn't even needed due to zombies being easy to kill anyway.

Now in A18 you have to actively reduce the numbers of zombies you pull at once, since you often have to fight in small rooms and there is no bike for safety beneath you. Some routes include plattforming, so while it is possible to lure zombies in less condensed spaces you often have to create a path first, so you don't accidently walk into a mine or fall down and break your leg.

According to you and again you dont understand what others have stated and discussed with you

And as soon as outside zombies are added back into the game they will do that as well. They also will be even more efficient than they were before due to the improved ai.

Again you completely miss the points given and go on your own tangent...

This! Including the Ryoga Hibiki friend.
Replies in red

 
Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?
Again you have no idea on how that would work and no that isnt how it would work (well unless you were a lazy developer). Again you completely miss the points and any understanding. It is completely possible. Was stated even able to make 1000s more pois so doing this wouldnt take much more as well. quite easily do 500 new pois and do randomnisation.

As much as I cant wait for gold. Rather wait and have the game cater for all not just newbs and improve the outcome of the game before gold. isnt that what we all are here for. I not the only one who knows this would improve the game ten fold. and only a couple stating it wouldnt. Thats your view but many others dont share that..

- - - Updated - - -

Dungeon randomisation is for next game (possibly). Not gonna happen in 7dtd.
Cheers
Well wont hurt to keep bringing it up cause it def make the game 1000 times better.

 
- - - Updated - - -

Well wont hurt to keep bringing it up cause it def make the game 1000 times better.
Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.

Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

Cheers

 
Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.
Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

Cheers
Far out dead horses dont move lol... since when.. you really need to stop looking thru my window at night man thats creepy as hell

Well you obviously missed alot of the gates obviously. the more people talk bout something the more the devs notice that it is wholly supported by many.

same with any real life protest like womens rights, gay and lesbian rights etc all changed with people supporting it.

 
Stallions, you are saying that the devs have reduced the amount of life in and around POIs and made changes such as the lighted path and list crafting instead of the grid and basically hand out guns and ammo like candy all in order to make the game more appealing to brand new players. These changes make the game less replayable for everyone and especially for old timers who remember the way the game used to be.

Is that correct?

 
Far out dead horses dont move lol... since when.. you really need to stop looking thru my window at night man thats creepy as hell
Well you obviously missed alot of the gates obviously. the more people talk bout something the more the devs notice that it is wholly supported by many.

same with any real life protest like womens rights, gay and lesbian rights etc all changed with people supporting it.
Problem is you think you represent a overwhelming majority with your virtual gang of oldtimers (because facebook) and dismiss the /counter/ protesters (including 5K oldtimers like me) that state they are still enjoying the game in its current form and form that is still to come because of what the devs they is gonna make it into the game. They /just/ dont get it. They /must/ like it easy. And they /obviously/ missed all the gates. Speak your mind, its really okey. Just stop putting fake weight to your opinion by acting like the whole world agrees with you. And please honor those who tell you they think differently. You dont need to dismiss them just so it looks like your point has more value.

Cheers

 
Problem is you think you represent a overwhelming majority with your virtual gang of oldtimers (because facebook) and dismiss the /counter/ protesters (including 5K oldtimers like me) that state they are still enjoying the game in its current form and form that is still to come because of what the devs they is gonna make it into the game. They /just/ dont get it. They /must/ like it easy. And they /obviously/ missed all the gates. Speak your mind, its really okey. Just stop putting fake weight to your opinion by acting like the whole world agrees with you. And please honor those who tell you they think differently. You dont need to dismiss them just so it looks like your point has more value.
Cheers
I agree with him in essence.

 
Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.
Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

Cheers
come on:)

If she feels that someone needs her, she will return from the other world.

 
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