PC Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

[stallionsden]

Problem is you think you represent a overwhelming majority with your virtual gang of oldtimers (because facebook) and dismiss the /counter/ protesters (including 5K oldtimers like me) that state they are still enjoying the game in its current form and form that is still to come because of what the devs they is gonna make it into the game. They /just/ dont get it. They /must/ like it easy. And they /obviously/ missed all the gates. Speak your mind, its really okey. Just stop putting fake weight to your opinion by acting like the whole world agrees with you. And please honor those who tell you they think differently. You dont need to dismiss them just so it looks like your point has more value.
Cheers

The only fake here is you ... I 1. never said all old timers and 2. I do talk to ex players and current players and i am stating facts in accordance to those i have spoken to and discussed this stuff.

Prisma i dont believe my point has more value but my points are spot on. And as you can maybe read others share it as well as add their own...

If you want to comment bs and fake accusations please first read what i actually wrote and not comment like your a dev or moderator...

None of what i have stated esp in regards to long timers getting bored is false or fake. Show me where i stated all long timers agree with me.

 

[Aldranon]

Stallions, you are saying that the devs have reduced the amount of life in and around POIs and made changes such as the lighted path and list crafting instead of the grid and basically hand out guns and ammo like candy all in order to make the game more appealing to brand new players. These changes make the game less replayable for everyone and especially for old timers who remember the way the game used to be.
Is that correct?

Well, I would basically say that.

To me, its like a poor mans Fallout 4 (remember the power armor on day 1 there?)

7D2D reminds me of Fallout 4 so much, I loaded up that game and played it. I'm not going to do the ending, because the ending just shows that people are dummies. So, I'm seeing how populated I can make the wastelands with settlements. Yes, they work there asses off making me rich...

 

[n2n1]

Cool i guess? Ghostlight does too. We all know that. Whats your point?
Cheers

I'm just reading here, and my thoughts match his. That's all. I'm just another person with the same opinion as stallionsden.

 

[stallionsden]

Stallions, you are saying that the devs have reduced the amount of life in and around POIs and made changes such as the lighted path and list crafting instead of the grid and basically hand out guns and ammo like candy all in order to make the game more appealing to brand new players. These changes make the game less replayable for everyone and especially for old timers who remember the way the game used to be.
Is that correct?

A small correct statement yes. The grid i was simply agreeing with khaine as i do miss it but that grid is gone but still it made the game more nerve racking so to speak.

The guns and ammo wasnt easy to obtain in previous alphas either.

My other point is the game fully caters for new players where as it should cater for all. I know that after a point yes one goes to mods eventually even after refusing to play with mods or they dont play anymore.

Yes a18 adds alot of great things i never denied that. Yes a18 is more graphically prettier then previous alphas. But the scare and fear factors are missing. The using the brain to make items to craft is gone just click and your away.

I know and understand the business choice but i would rather step up now voice mine and others (as others have added theirs to) before game goes gold so tfp can maybe view the discussion and make changes if they decide rather then wait til after gold and not say anything.

Us long timers been passionate bout this game for a long time we enjoyed the path it was going but we also enjoy aspects of a18 also. But again take away the cheat sheets and randomise dungeon pois etc and the game will have longer life.

I also know that it is tfps game and no matter what they go do what they go do even if the whole forum supported something but tfp didnt. But no harm in voicing concerns thoughts from those whom did follow the game since the start or a5 etc.

But with certain people coming on here not reading the thread actually properly and whether they arw baiting or what the title does not help and i wonder if it was done purposefully to give this thread a poorer discussion then maybe a better title then people would more understand what we been trying to state.

 

[stallionsden]

Well, I would basically say that.To me, its like a poor mans Fallout 4 (remember the power armor on day 1 there?)

7D2D reminds me of Fallout 4 so much, I loaded up that game and played it. I'm not going to do the ending, because the ending just shows that people are dummies. So, I'm seeing how populated I can make the wastelands with settlements. Yes, they work there asses off making me rich...

Yes and no. Fallout 4 was real strategy of which paths you want to go etc which alliance you want to be with. Different endings. But fallout is a completely different game i understand i used that game meself as a show of it being replayable with out mods many times over.

The ending you could choose many as well in fallout 4

 

[Aldranon]

Yes and no. Fallout 4 was real strategy of which paths you want to go etc which alliance you want to be with. Different endings. But fallout is a completely different game i understand i used that game meself as a show of it being replayable with out mods many times over.
The ending you could choose many as well in fallout 4

Well, that's your opinion about FO4. I do all the quests for all the alliances, because fun. Until they want me to kill everyone else...

"Dummies, dummies never change". Should be the last words for that game.

 

[Prisma501]

The only fake here is you ... I 1. never said all old timers and 2. I do talk to ex players and current players and i am stating facts in accordance to those i have spoken to and discussed this stuff.
Prisma i dont believe my point has more value but my points are spot on. And as you can maybe read others share it as well as add their own...

If you want to comment bs and fake accusations please first read what i actually wrote and not comment like your a dev or moderator...

None of what i have stated esp in regards to long timers getting bored is false or fake. Show me where i stated all long timers agree with me.

There you do it again. The ALL vs A LOT. But when i state i still like the game and there is a /lot/ of us. You say there is only a handfull (based on what?) and that i like the game easy. I dont say you said ALL oldtimers. You said a lot and dismiss everyone that says otherwise with your /you just dont get it/ /you like it easy/. There are people agreeing with you as much as i see people disagreeing with you. Big difference is you dismiss (read back your red texts yourself) any post that does not agree with your point of view with /you dont get it/ /you like it easy/. Seemingly to make you point of view weigh more. Please enlighten me if there is another reason behind that.

So here we go: there are a LOT of oldtimers still liking the game as is. Knowing balancing is coming. And they certainly didnt quit playing. I talk to a lot of oldtimers and read facebook. Isnt this a great argument to continue the direction of the game as it is? See how that does NOT work.

I get it, you want to make it seem that there is only players agreeing with you (lesbian protesters). Pump up the gate so to speak.

Never said you dont have valid points ever. You just dismiss other opinions with your /a LOT/ /you like it easy/ /you just dont get it/

How many is a lot btw? 5 players? 20? 1% of player base? 10%? 90%? There is your problem with your /a lot/. It doesnt say sh*t. As i can turn it around and make exactly the oposite point of view and say the same. And then answer any post disagreeing with /you just dont get it/.

You are not open for reasons why people dont quit the game or are just modding in the challenge they are seeking. You want to make them look ridicoulous to somehow make it seem your points are the only valid ones.

Cheers

 

[stallionsden]

There you do it again. The ALL vs A LOT. But when i state i still like the game and there is a /lot/ of us. You say there is only a handfull (based on what?) and that i like the game easy. I dont say you said ALL oldtimers. You said a lot and dismiss everyone that says otherwise with your /you just dont get it/ /you like it easy/. There are people agreeing with you as much as i see people disagreeing with you. Big difference is you dismiss (read back your red texts yourself) any post that does not agree with your point of view with /you dont get it/ /you like it easy/. Seemingly to make you point of view weigh more. Please enlighten me if there is another reason behind that.
So here we go: there are a LOT of oldtimers still liking the game as is. Knowing balancing is coming. And they certainly didnt quit playing. I talk to a lot of oldtimers and read facebook. Isnt this a great argument to continue the direction of the game as it is? See how that does NOT work.

I get it, you want to make it seem that there is only players agreeing with you (lesbian protesters). Pump up the gate so to speak.

Never said you dont have valid points ever. You just dismiss other opinions with your /a LOT/ /you like it easy/ /you just dont get it/

How many is a lot btw? 5 players? 20? 1% of player base? 10%? 90%? There is your problem with your /a lot/. It doesnt say sh*t. As i can turn it around and make exactly the oposite point of view and say the same. And then answer any post disagreeing with /you just dont get it/.

You are not open for reasons why people dont quit the game or are just modding in the challenge they are seeking. You want to make them look ridicoulous to somehow make it seem your points are the only valid ones.

Cheers

correction next reply

 

[Prisma501]

I will do the easy one first..
show me where i said all long timers.... I got all night, back up your lies and false claims. please. I will wait.....

Show me first where i said that you said all longtimers...

You dont aswer the real question (again). Why do you dismiss players that state they still enjoy the game??

Cheers

 

[stallionsden]

Well, that's your opinion about FO4. I do all the quests for all the alliances, because fun. Until they want me to kill everyone else...
"Dummies, dummies never change". Should be the last words for that game.

yeh i was simply stating at near the ending you have to choose which alliance, brotherhood, the institute etc. choose the institute brotherhood attack you. choose brotherhood the institute attack you.

I normally have a alliance i want to be with by the end at the start but yeh i do most the quests til that point of choosing.

 

[Prisma501]

Anyways. Good luck with your fight. You dont play anymore so nothing lost if you dont /win/ right?

MM stated and Roland confirmed and repeated multiple times that vanilla will not get changed to cater oldtimers with 1000+ hours.

You want vanilla to cater the oldtimers.

You want what the owner says wont happen. As said, good luck with that. Ill just keep on playing and wish you luck.

Cheers

 

[stallionsden]

There you do it again. The ALL vs A LOT. But when i state i still like the game and there is a /lot/ of us. You say there is only a handfull (based on what?) and that i like the game easy. I dont say you said ALL oldtimers. You said a lot and dismiss everyone that says otherwise with your /you just dont get it/ /you like it easy/. There are people agreeing with you as much as i see people disagreeing with you. Big difference is you dismiss (read back your red texts yourself) any post that does not agree with your point of view with /you dont get it/ /you like it easy/. Seemingly to make you point of view weigh more. Please enlighten me if there is another reason behind that.
OFC the new players whom only joined A17/A18 think this game is the bees knees. As stated they never got the chance to see what the game was like prior. And I was stating alot of the ones i SPEAK to that dont play anymore ..i never said or stated every old timer that plays this game. but as you can see many long timers have voiced their same or extra opinions as well. Is it every long timer that is playing this game ..... no

So here we go: there are a LOT of oldtimers still liking the game as is. Knowing balancing is coming. And they certainly didnt quit playing. I talk to a lot of oldtimers and read facebook. Isnt this a great argument to continue the direction of the game as it is? See how that does NOT work.

it does work cause i dont talk to the same fb that you do. you dont talk to the ones i talk to on steam or other chat services... You are trying to twist my words whether its stupidity or you baiting is making me laugh. But you make one point and i will give that to you that that there are some old timers still playing this game. playing with mods tho or without mods. cause if they are playing with mods your point is mute and non reliant of this thread.

I get it, you want to make it seem that there is only players agreeing with you (lesbian protesters). Pump up the gate so to speak.

Nope not at all and shows with your weak assumptions and falseness. At all times i have only conveyed people that i have spoken with etc not ever stated all whom play this game. I even said the new ones that only joined in a17/A18 didnt play previous alphas so they can only comment what it is like now. no basis for a proper discussion in terms of what this thread is actually about. That was by no means a attack on their opinions but the fact they have only played a17/a18. But I take it you have no idea what this thread is actually about nor any idea of what we are trying to say but you simply take something twist it to the way that makes you look good and go with it..;. I see that alot with your replies in the dev diary as well.

Never said you dont have valid points ever. You just dismiss other opinions with your /a LOT/ /you like it easy/ /you just dont get it/

Dismiss because i dont think their views are correct or dismiss cause some dont understand exactly the thread and what we are trying to say and misunderstanding things and thus giving either baiting responses ( only yours ofc) or wrong and again the heading is definately a heading that allows for misunderstandings and these type of disagreements rather then a discussion. As well as your jabs at people both in this thread and the dev diary thinking your a moderator or dev...

How many is a lot btw? 5 players? 20? 1% of player base? 10%? 90%? There is your problem with your /a lot/. It doesnt say sh*t. As i can turn it around and make exactly the oposite point of view and say the same. And then answer any post disagreeing with /you just dont get it/.

No actually this bit I can easily answer (100% of those i TALK to that dont play the game any longer and as well as many on facebook and some on other chat programs) your comment here dont say sh*t other then showing you baiting people and coming at me with an idiotic response.

You are not open for reasons why people dont quit the game or are just modding in the challenge they are seeking. You want to make them look ridicoulous to somehow make it seem your points are the only valid ones.

Cheers

nope again just pulling stuff out ya rear again. I have no issues with people contributing to proper and decent disagreements with me. In fact i welcome it. but i will gove responses and if it disagrees with someone really means in english I dont share their views. as do some dont share mine etc. simple elementary really. Yes people mod the game one thing tfp have been great at is allowing us to mod the game. My points are def not the only ones but i am also not the only one saying it. we all paid for the game and we are here to contribute our thoughts and well i speak for the ones that I SPEAK to that dont play the game anymore cause it is boring and vanilla has catered fully for the newbies. The old timers that play now if they only play vanilla and not modded then that is great that is how they enjoy the game. I myself as well as those that dont play the game that I SPEAK TO disagree as well as with the ones that have voiced their views here to.

 

[stallionsden]

Anyways. Good luck with your fight. You dont play anymore so nothing lost if you dont /win/ right?
MM stated and Roland confirmed and repeated multiple times that vanilla will not get changed to cater oldtimers with 1000+ hours.

You want vanilla to cater the oldtimers.

You want what the owner says wont happen. As said, good luck with that. Ill just keep on playing and wish you luck.

Cheers

Just cause i dont play no more doesnt mean your gonna shut me up lol. I will continue to state my views and hopes to see a game that gives the vanilla back some of what was removed to fully cater for the new players. Obviously you dont understand how vanilla works it should cater for new players, interim players and long timers. By that I will elaborate cause every game gets to the point where you have to chose to keep playing you mod it or you stop playing basically to give vanilla a longer life before one goes nope need to mod. My point to this thread was simply to bring back some life and scare and fear to the game i mean after all it spose to be a zombie game not a barbie and ken game. that vanilla desperately lacks.

And well MM and roland have also been known to change their minds and see certain things to and changing paths but by shutting up and not saying anything is not really an answer. this thread all be it stupid heading clearly states ideas from us old timers to improve the game within the current state of the game before it stays so easy for gold. will TFP go oh i need to change the game completely (And that is not what we are trying to say at all either) probably not, or will tfp go hmm good points i can see some tweaks and changes may be i hadnt thought of or a hell no what ever.

Again if you like dead cities and no fear, repetitiveness and rinse and repeat cool but this game can be alot more with adding many of what previous alphas had. But also it shows TFP that there is more then just 1 person who sees some things missing and guess what it then goes to them thinking maybe this isnt bad or no that wont work but they wont know if people dont say.

you love playing with little zs or having one click crafting good for you or enjoy the same dungeon poi over and over again good for you. easy is not always the best leads to boredom more quicker. I myself like challenge lots of dangers and i like my fear level to be way off the ground unlike where vanilla is atm.

can the dungeon be improved ten fold most definately. I def know the game isnt gold yet but like stated previously if ya sit on your hands and wait for the game to go gold without speaking of ones thoughts on improvements then its ya own fault for not doing anything about it prior.

 

[Ghostlight]

Actually I don't think the game caters that well to new players. Better than it does to old timers, absolutely, but still not that great. The moment they see there are no zombies in this zombie apocalypse game they just bought, many new players will just go play something else. How many newbs do you think will bother to come here and actually learn how to mod in a decent number of enemies? No only that, but there are other key problems for new players as well:

a) Replayabiity has been on the decline since A17. Allowing players to unlock every item in the game through perks was a mistake. Every playthrough is now identical.

b) Once a player gets bored with Navesgane (assuming a noob actually starts with Navesgane), they will encounter the joys of the RWG. It baffles me that this absolutely key feature of the game has been allowed to be such a low priority item on the roadmap and be utterly crap for so long. First impressions (of the generated world) last forever. Coming from Navesgane to your first RWG is a shock to the system.

c) A lot of players will quit the moment their first demolishers tear down their pride and joy base in seconds. Not everyone reads FAQs.

d) The default settings are terrible. maxAlive 8 and low difficulty. Jeez. Game is pure carebear at default, yet it is probably what most new players will begin at. I don't think people signing up for a hardcore zombie survival game want to be coddled like that.

 

[stallionsden]

Actually I don't think the game caters that well to new players. Better than it does to old timers, absolutely, but still not that great. The moment they see there are no zombies in this zombie apocalypse game they just bought, many new players will just go play something else. How many newbs do you think will bother to come here and actually learn how to mod in a decent number of enemies? No only that, but there are other key problems for new players as well:
Previously on earlier alphas the game was catered to long timers and alot of new players were scared away cause it was a hard transition. this i understand the game catered for the experienced not the new players. there were no quests no hints other then the loading screen on how to build a axe etc.. But now come a17/a18 the shift has been a large swing to the new players. I understand the game hads to be toned down to be able to cater for new players not my argument at all. but it has been toned down to far. by far to where it should have be.

 


Actually some possibly go straight to modding if vanilla isnt up to their speed etc but on the whole yes that is true. A few posts on fb group have been new to 7 dtd what mods do you recommend etc.

a) Replayabiity has been on the decline since A17. Allowing players to unlock every item in the game through perks was a mistake. Every playthrough is now identical.

b) Once a player gets bored with Navesgane (assuming a noob actually starts with Navesgane), they will encounter the joys of the RWG. It baffles me that this absolutely key feature of the game has been allowed to be such a low priority item on the roadmap and be utterly crap for so long. First impressions (of the generated world) last forever. Coming from Navesgane to your first RWG is a shock to the system.

To be honest. I played navezgane from a5 to a8 when rwg came out. ever since rwg has been out never visited navezgane again unless it was to test a prefab i made out lol. (easier to find the dang thing then in rwg lol) Am more a rwg player myself like the randomness of the world to certain points. Is why i and not gonna say ALL nitrogen users use nitrogen but many cause 1. it is very customisable to the world that player wants to try to create. whether it be islands or one land mass etc it is very creatable) fixes many issues the current rwg has also with repeat prefabs (to a point depending on the prefablist one has) plus alot of other benefits that rwg has lacked for some time. Unfortunately you still get the mesh issue that has plagued A18 tho.

 


but yes believe rwg is a bigger hit then navezgane but there are also many that do play navez and not rwg to. more for varying reasons as well.

c) A lot of players will quit the moment their first demolishers tear down their pride and joy base in seconds. Not everyone reads FAQs.

yeh rage quit lol. those things are good addition i will say but it is for me and others (that I have SPOKEN to) its the lack of. I know a response was they need to keep fps at a reasonable rate but the fps isnt really gonna matter if people dont see zombies in a zombie game. and lets face it people watch the walking dead, z nation, world war z and imagine going against those type a herds. altho that is truly impossible for this game there still needs to be a mass number of zs that get you sh*tting yourself in large numbers not a trickle.

d) The default settings are terrible. maxAlive 8 and low difficulty. Jeez. Game is pure carebear at default, yet it is probably what most new players will begin at. I don't think people signing up for a hardcore zombie survival game want to be coddled like that.

completely agree with this. the hard core players whether new or old to 7 dtd would prolly increase the values and if not completely satisfied then go straight to the mods section to see if any mods fix it to their level.

 

[meganoth]

Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.
Been mentioned a few times also this will solve that memorising paths etc and also have a few paths in the poi one way be the right way but the other 2 lead to traps/dead ends and have zs wake up when you chose the wrong path they come from behind ypu making your way blocked and thus exciting scary and makes the player chose carefully

Yes. Sadly Madmole doesn't see the light and thinks one more POI is better than to produce 2-3 variants of the same POI even though a designer could probably do 5-10 of the latter in the same time as creating one new POI from the ground. I think he said that would be something he hopes modders would do.

Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?

There is actually a way to randomize POIs somewhat with minimal effort. You can create a different path and end room in a POI by just changing the holes/connections in two rooms (and redistribute the loot) ! Think of a rat maze, move one or two walls somewhere else and the maze is suddenly quite different.

But Prisma501 is right with it being a dead horse at the moment. It actually would need a modder to do the work and prove that changing the POI that way (or any other way) actually works in "confusing" players.

 

[Roland]

b) Once a player gets bored with Navesgane (assuming a noob actually starts with Navesgane), they will encounter the joys of the RWG. It baffles me that this absolutely key feature of the game has been allowed to be such a low priority item on the roadmap and be utterly crap for so long. First impressions (of the generated world) last forever. Coming from Navesgane to your first RWG is a shock to the system.

Interesting perspective. You admit that RWG is worse design-wise than Navesgane which is a crafted world to the point that you list RWG as a reason why a new player might quit playing after they experience it. Yet you want the devs to switch from crafted POIs to randomly generated interiors.

Madmole spoke to this recently and said that procedurally generates interiors of POIs would be extremely difficult to do and cause them to have to be more generic and bland in general to make sure most possible variations could work and not be a jumbled mass. .

I’d like to correct your assumption that random gen has been low priority. It is a very high priority but comes with very difficult problems to solve. A randomly generated world or POI is never going to be able to compete design-wise with a hand crafted version.

If they switched to random interiors you would probably switch to complaining about all the limitations of those POIs much as you are now when comparing RWG maps to Navesgane.

 

[Jihh]

There is actually a way to randomize POIs somewhat with minimal effort. You can create a different path and end room in a POI by just changing the holes/connections in two rooms (and redistribute the loot) ! Think of a rat maze, move one or two walls somewhere else and the maze is suddenly quite different.

I would like that. I mean who wouldn't like more variety? As long as it get optimized rather than being in a rudimentary state, it would be a nice addition. But that's still far from houses being "complete different" on the inside.

It also wouldn't really be a minimal effort. As soon as we start moving walls and thus all decorative items that are on the wall we have to make sure that those rooms still look real. So we'd need multiple versions of each room rather than just randomly placed doors/walls. There is still some work involved.

I'm also unsure if that change would be sufficient, because we already can easily make our own pathways through the houses, if the predetermined path is too boring. So is the time needed for that change actually worth the outcome? Imho distributing the loot all over the house, a way less time consuming task, is the more important part and as Roland said it is something TFP talked about (if I remember correctly).

 

[Jihh]

Madmole spoke to this recently and said that procedurally generates interiors of POIs would be extremely difficult to do and cause them to have to be more generic and bland in general to make sure most possible variations could work and not be a jumbled mass. .
If they switched to random interiors you would probably switch to complaining about all the limitations of those POIs much as you are now when comparing RWG maps to Navesgane.

Thanks.

 

[meganoth]

I would like that. I mean who wouldn't like more variety? As long as it get optimized rather than being in a rudimentary state, it would be a nice addition. But that's still far from houses being "complete different" on the inside.It also wouldn't really be a minimal effort. As soon as we start moving walls and thus all decorative items that are on the wall we have to make sure that those rooms still look real. So we'd need multiple versions of each room rather than just randomly placed doors/walls. There is still some work involved.

Yes, it would be just moderate randomization for minimal work. That is what I assume. We'll never know until it is really tested. My hope would be that a player will not be able to memorize the layout of alternative POIs as easy because they are so similar to get mixed up in his memory.

Making a new path means just adding a door or a broken wall or floor to a room, and maybe removing or adding a picture or a cupboard. A very finite effort of changing about 2 (a door) to say 10 blocks (closing or opening a broken wall, moving furniture). It might not work well everywhere but the designer is free to find rooms and walls that work best.

I'm also unsure if that change would be sufficient, because we already can easily make our own pathways through the houses, if the predetermined path is too boring. So is the time needed for that change actually worth the outcome? Imho distributing the loot all over the house, a way less time consuming task, is the more important part and as Roland said it is something TFP talked about (if I remember correctly).

I don't remember exactly either, but my impression was more that it was an idea contemplated but then not agreed upon by the devs. Anyone knows the facts?