Biomes in biome progression makes no sense

[EvilPolygons]

I'm not up on the dirty bombs; that sounds neat.

If the US Military is trying to contain a zombie apocalypse then I'm curious what they have learned that leads them to want to use a dirty weapon or employ a weapon in a manner that creates long-term issues for the survivors.

It's basically a shell of Cobalt-59 wrapped around a thermonuclear warhead. The resulting fission/fusion explosion converts the Cobalt-59 into Cobalt-60. Extremely nasty.

Regardless, for reasons you already outlined, it's doubtful the US military deployed whatever weapon created the wasteland. The US would have dropped a relatively "clean" hydrogen bomb set to airburst if they were trying to eliminate an infected population center. The only thing that could create a radiated wasteland biome like we have in 7DTD would be some kind of dirty bomb, or perhaps (as you mentioned) a ground strike on a nuclear power plant. Either way, that's something you'd expect an adversary would do.

So perhaps there was a limited nuclear exchange between the US and its rivals as the zombie pandemic worsened (which often happens in zombie apocalypse fiction), or perhaps a terrorist organization or rogue state decided to strike while the US was weakened by the zombie outbreak. Who knows? But there's literally no strategic, tactical, or logical reason to set off a dirty bomb inside your own country.

 

[zztong]

Maybe they were throwing anything they got not knowing that Radation didnt do anything but made them better.

Anything is possible in desperation. Maybe they were convinced zombies would die to fallout? That's playing the long game... (If so, clearly that backfired.)

They have a lot of munitions to throw, though if realism is to matter, ICBMs have a minimum range that is going to make the US forces hitting Navezgane a problem. SLBMs are good though.

By the way, here's a "fun" website if you want to start blowing things up with lots of targeting settings and different visualizations...

NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

NUKEMAP is a website for visualizing the effects of nuclear detonations.

nuclearsecrecy.com

EDIT: My apologies to those in Sedona AZ, nearby Flagstaff, and folks downwind... (That was a Minuteman III.)

NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

NUKEMAP is a website for visualizing the effects of nuclear detonations.

nuclearsecrecy.com

 

[khzmusik]

Regarding Native Americans - I think you have an incorrect view about them. Native Americans thrive in pretty much any environment. Suggesting that they are best suited to one environment isn't true. They can survive just fine in snowy and cold environments.

You're right, of course. I was mainly considering the traditional clothing of the White Mountain Apache tribe in northeast Arizona, since I believe that's where the game is supposed to take place. From what I can tell, they certainly had winter clothing, but it was not "survive when the entire area is three feet deep in snow, forever" winter clothing.

I also have to admit I was influenced by the old designs for bandits, as shown in the A19 dev diary. That was basically the stereotypical headress-and-loincloth Native American clothing (with a bit of Mad Max thrown in).

But there's nothing that says Native Americans can't wear modern parkas or other winter survival gear like anyone else.

I also get your point about the survival aspects of the game not necessarily making the biome more difficult. That only works if you're trying to survive in the biome long-term (like setting up a base). I happen to be biased towards the survival aspects - killing zombies gets boring real fast - but I get that I'm probably in the minority.

I do think that, eventually, TFP are going to figure out a way to encourage the player to live in each biome, rather than just rush through it or only go there for resources.

There's a big difference between a nuclear detonation and a power plant melting down. There's also a big difference between a nuclear detonation in the air and a nuclear detonation on the ground.

It always made more sense to me that the nuclear bombs were dropped before the zombies rose. Like, maybe the radiation caused an animal virus (or whatever) to mutate, and that's what caused the zombie outbreak.

It would make sense why the story takes place in or around an Arizona Apache reservation. It's not just that those areas are less populous (though they are). They are also less of a strategic value for any enemy to attack, since they don't contain military bases or factories that produce military equipment.

It also makes sense, to me, that the blood moons are some kind of weird "seasonal" weather effect that is related to nuclear fallout in some way.

But obviously I'm just guessing.

 

[Charger265]

The game includes all kinds of animals there, and they probably shouldn't. The primary example is the bear. Except that bears hibernate in the winter, so if anything, bears should be absent from this biome.

Just a thought from a coding perspective why not just make the bears polar bears. Easy skin change to white and make the bigger in presence.
This could also be applied to the rabbit / Arctic hare, arctic fox & caribou

Adding to the experience in the biomes
Polar - reduced day cycle longer night cycle

 

[Riamus]

Just a thought from a coding perspective why not just make the bears polar bears. Easy skin change to white and make the bigger in presence.
This could also be applied to the rabbit / Arctic hare, arctic fox & caribou

Adding to the experience in the biomes
Polar - reduced day cycle longer night cycle

Because this takes place in Arizona and there aren't polar bears in Arizona beyond whatever ones are in zoos. They are trying to limit animals to what you'd see in Arizona.

There are all kinds of different animals that would be great additions to the game if they were to treat it as being located in some random location and not just Arizona. But I doubt they'll do that. It'll be up to mods to add other kinds of animals.

Post automatically merged: Aug 5, 2025

I do think that, eventually, TFP are going to figure out a way to encourage the player to live in each biome, rather than just rush through it or only go there for resources.

That would be nice, but I really don't think they'll ever figure that out. Besides, now that you have spitters and frostclaws, a lot of people will never build in the desert or snowy forest now. I might be willing to deal with the spitters even though others hate them, but I don't have any interest in the ground around my base becoming a lot of holes everywhere from the frostclaws. That will keep me from ever building in the snowy forest even though they are easy to deal with.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Just a thought from a coding perspective why not just make the bears polar bears. Easy skin change to white and make the bigger in presence.
This could also be applied to the rabbit / Arctic hare, arctic fox & caribou

Adding to the experience in the biomes
Polar - reduced day cycle longer night cycle

The flaw in @khzmusik 's logic is that entering the snow biome doesn't magically set the season forward to winter. The snow biome is just a cold region. Arizona has ski resorts in the mountains, and enough snow on the slopes to ski for roughly half the year. So the whole hibernation thing is just a non-issue.

 

[Riamus]

The flaw in @khzmusik 's logic is that entering the snow biome doesn't magically set the season forward to winter. The snow biome is just a cold region. Arizona has ski resorts in the mountains, and enough snow on the slopes to ski for roughly half the year. So the whole hibernation thing is just a non-issue.

Well, I would point out that in such a location, the bears wouldn't hang out in the snow. They would be in warmer areas.

It doesn't really matter much to me. I would prefer bears in the forest, but I don't care if they are in the shower forest.

 

[Javabean867]

I've seen a few people question the amount of bears in the snow biome. And i get the initial thought, but when you think a little bit longer it makes sense. Why do bears hibernate? lack of available resources. They don't have the food to keep them active in the winter time.

What is all over the place in 7d2d? walking rotten meat. They have plenty of food to keep active in the snow. Plus I am sure the zombies have smelled the bear in their dens and have gone there to get meat as well. Same with the Mountain lions and wolves. there is so much food just walking around, might as well be active and hunt, especially if the food is disturbing your places of rest.

 

[8_Hussars]

Apologies, for being a bit random and all over the shop...

About Biome Progression

The purpose of this post is not to question whether biome progression is necessary. Topics like loot caps or biome smoothies are off topic.

This post assumes that people should go through some kind of biome progression, however it is done. The post is considering which biomes should follow which other biomes.

Currently, outside of a few specific resources, the main advantage of the different biomes in 7d2d is improved loot quality. While biome progression is expected to play a role in future "story mode", the current implementation is somewhat limiting.

There are five biomes in the game, but only three; pine forest, desert, and snow, feel naturally occurring and intuitive to most players. The other two, the burnt forest and wasteland, are products of external events. RWG must also be able to place these biomes logically, which further constrains their use.

Burnt Forest biome
The burnt forest fits logically as a transitional zone between pine forest (natural wildfires) and wasteland (nuclear fire). While TFP portrays it as dreary and full of smoke particulate storms, in reality, post-burn environments are often rich with new life. Visibility is high, and regrowth brings back plenty of flora and fauna. It’s arguably one of the easier biomes to survive in. While some herd animals avoid burned areas, many species thrive in them shortly after a fire.

Desert biome
Deserts are defined by dryness, not necessarily heat. While TFP has modeled a traditional hot desert, cold deserts also exist and could be incorporated. Deserts could reasonably appear next to pine forests, burnt forests, or even snow biomes depending on elevation and climate logic.

Snow biome
The snow biome differs from the pine forest mainly in temperature and snow. It’s teeming with wildlife though you rarely see it. The bear density is a bit unusual. While real-world polar bears don’t hibernate, the bears modeled in 7d2d do. Still, at high altitudes, bears and snow can easily coexist even in summer.

Wasteland biome (radiated?)
The wasteland is clearly designed as the end-game biome, and I’d welcome the inclusion of radiation risks to reinforce that. Dew collectors work based on condensation from temperature differences, so they should function in all biomes, even in irradiated zones.


I’ve suggested before that biome-related health hazards should function similarly to infection: applying slow, incremental debuffs over time. These could be mitigated but not entirely cured using specialized health items or equipment (which may need to be added). A book series related to environmental survival could reinforce this mechanic and provide progression.

FuriousRamsey's Storm overhaul for Jawoodle uses a similar mechanic so perhaps linking biome survival with that mechanic could work. Where storms are less often, but increase the environmental debuffs that occur anyway.

Maybe it would be worth overlaying a simplified height map for temperature, where higher elevations were colder and lower elevations were hotter. Maybe have a farming overlay where grow rates are linked to biomes and/or coupled with the height map.

Regardless, the addition of extra more realistic survival mechanics and risks applicable to biomes, would be a positive for the game. Whatever lore could be tailored to fit as required.

What I Advocate

This is how I, personally, think players should progress through biomes.

1. Forest biome. I have no objection to this biome. But, we have to keep in mind that we're starting the players in the most aesthetically pleasing biome, and that can often trump better weapons or equipment. From a story perspective, you'd probably want friendly Native Americans to live here.
2. Desert biome. It is easier - but not impossible - to grow crops in the desert. The temperature is extreme, but not so extreme that people cannot live there (yet). The animals attack but can be avoided. Native Americans can live here.
3. Snow biome. Most crops cannot grow here, they freeze. The temperature is extreme enough so you can't live there without protection - think Antarctica. There are lots of animals that can kill you (but not bears since they're hibernating).
4. Wasteland. You can't construct farm plots, because you can only dig up radioactive dirt. Temperature is often hot, but the biggest issue is radiation. Animals should all be zombies which give no usable meat. No Native American would ever step foot here.

Hope this makes sense to people, and thanks for listening.

It would be controversial, but consider doing away with serial biome progression and only gating the wasteland biome somewhat. Perhaps, decreasing the loot abundance over time (100%, 75%, etc.) could enhance biome progression. As survivors and Traders pick over the leftovers in the easier biomes.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I've seen a few people question the amount of bears in the snow biome. And i get the initial thought, but when you think a little bit longer it makes sense. Why do bears hibernate? lack of available resources. They don't have the food to keep them active in the winter time.

What is all over the place in 7d2d? walking rotten meat. They have plenty of food to keep active in the snow. Plus I am sure the zombies have smelled the bear in their dens and have gone there to get meat as well. Same with the Mountain lions and wolves. there is so much food just walking around, might as well be active and hunt, especially if the food is disturbing your places of rest.

Sure, but again, we don't have to worry about what bears do during the winter months because it isn't winter. The game obviously starts us off sometime in early to mid spring (just look at the forest biome). For some reason people tend to think Arizona is nothing but desert. It's not. High altitude areas can stay cold all the way up to the beginning of summer. Global cooling caused by nuclear winter could possibly lead to snow sticking year round up in the mountains.

 

[Charger265]

Because this takes place in Arizona and there aren't polar bears in Arizona beyond whatever ones are in zoos. They are trying to limit animals to what you'd see in Arizona.

Which i would not generally do for a product that has a very wide spread demographic. The self imposed boundaries limits ideas and creativity along with limiting possible in game connections on a personal level.

The flaw in @khzmusik['s logic is that entering the snow biome doesn't magically set the season forward to winter. The snow biome is just a cold region. Arizona has ski resorts in the mountains, and enough snow on the slopes to ski for roughly half the year. So the whole hibernation thing is just a non-issue.

Yeah i didnt quite get his logic there either, hence the suggestion for a skin change to make the polar animals. I also have no real knowledge of Arizona so cant form any judgment on the fauna to include outside a google search. But i guess i dont really understand the dev's vision to have it located in a specific region and making it native american themed. I would have thought a decision like this limits the number of people that can relate to the game.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Which i would not generally do for a product that has a very wide spread demographic. The self imposed boundaries limits ideas and creativity along with limiting possible in game connections on a personal level.



Yeah i didnt quite get his logic there either, hence the suggestion for a skin change to make the polar animals. I also have no real knowledge of Arizona so cant form any judgment on the fauna to include outside a google search. But i guess i dont really understand the dev's vision to have it located in a specific region and making it native american themed. I would have thought a decision like this limits the number of people that can relate to the game.

7DTD being set in Arizona is no different than the Walking Dead being set in Georgia, or Fallout 3 being set in Washington, DC, or Far Cry 5 being set in Montana. I mean...it's normal for games to have a setting where they take place.

 

[Riamus]

Yeah, it is common for games to have a location unless they are pure sandbox games or games set on planets other than Earth (real or fake). There isn't anything wrong with it. If they didn't have a location and just started throwing all kinds of animals in the game because there isn't a specific location, you would and up with animals that don't belong together. You could pick animals that belong together, but that is really no different than having a set location and limiting the animals to what belong in that location.

Those who want additional animals can use mods, of on PC, and mods (new animals, new biomes, etc) or custom maps can be set in other locations.

Besides, there isn't any real reason for polar bears. Grizzly bears and brown bears (I'll leave it up to you which you think is on this game) can be found walking around in snow, so it isn't unusual. As mentioned, they hibernate in the winter when food is scarce. With zombies and dead people, and with it not being winter (only the snowy forest is covered in snow and it is a small location, not the entire planet), seeing them walking around is even less unusual.

 

[Charger265]

7DTD being set in Arizona is no different than the Walking Dead being set in Georgia, or Fallout 3 being set in Washington, DC, or Far Cry 5 being set in Montana. I mean...it's normal for games to have a setting where they take place.

Yeah i get a lot do that. I guess its just an ingrained in game development. Granted the american player base makes up for around 20% and makes up the majority so the logical outcome would be for it to be a US location.
I have no issue with it being there as its the dev direction. On one hand they are trying to be realistic with location and themes around it then at the same time taking realism out through simplified game mechanics.

Yeah, it is common for games to have a location unless they are pure sandbox games or games set on planets other than Earth (real or fake).

Considering the basis of the game was open world sandbox game. Granted there are exception to any rule.

I guess what im trying to point out is to make changes to the game that have some meaningful impact with visuals and content however you want to complete this in a way which reduces the development work to implement. Leaving more time and resources to understand the core mechanics (that players are looking for) and delivering a game fundamentally that is challenging, engaging and rewards long game play.
Yeah its only my opinion that has expressed unhappiness in the game direction however i am far from a isolated case.

The thought process behind this is looking back to A13-A16 Visually for the time, the game was for the better part very average if not sub par. But the game play was really engaging. Allowing a much greater ROI for time spent.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Yeah i get a lot do that. I guess its just an ingrained in game development. Granted the american player base makes up for around 20% and makes up the majority so the logical outcome would be for it to be a US location.
I have no issue with it being there as its the dev direction. On one hand they are trying to be realistic with location and themes around it then at the same time taking realism out through simplified game mechanics.



Considering the basis of the game was open world sandbox game. Granted there are exception to any rule.

I guess what im trying to point out is to make changes to the game that have some meaningful impact with visuals and content however you want to complete this in a way which reduces the development work to implement. Leaving more time and resources to understand the core mechanics (that players are looking for) and delivering a game fundamentally that is challenging, engaging and rewards long game play.
Yeah its only my opinion that has expressed unhappiness in the game direction however i am far from a isolated case.

The thought process behind this is looking back to A13-A16 Visually for the time, the game was for the better part very average if not sub par. But the game play was really engaging. Allowing a much greater ROI for time spent.

Other locations would be cool, sure. But the developers of 7DTD live in the southwestern US, so their game is set in Arizona. It makes sense. However, alternate locations such as jungles in South America or Africa would be pretty awesome, too. If you've tried out MPLogue's Better Biomes mod, just imagine what a jungle biome would be like with all that undergrowth and dense foliage. Of course, it might set your GPU on fire.

I'd totally pay for a jungle or tropical island expansion.

 

[Charger265]

Other locations would be cool, sure. But the developers of 7DTD live in the southwestern US, so their game is set in Arizona. It makes sense. However, alternate locations such as jungles in South America or Africa would be pretty awesome, too. If you've tried out MPLogue's Better Biomes mod, just imagine what a jungle biome would be like with all that undergrowth and dense foliage. Of course, it might set your GPU on fire.

I'd totally pay for a jungle or tropical island expansion.

You are correct for this instance it makes complete sense for the location.

I prefer this over the standard. It makes the forest more dangerous due to limited vision. But yea is struggles with 60fps @ 4k. But lets not open that can of worms...LOL

 

[EvilPolygons]

You are correct for this instance it makes complete sense for the location.

I prefer this over the standard. It makes the forest more dangerous due to limited vision. But yea is struggles with 60fps @ 4k. But lets not open that can of worms...LOL

I only play at 1440p, and even at that resolution Better Biomes is brutal. But it is a truly mind-blowing mod. It's worth every single frame it costs.

Anyway, now I'm ready for a mashup of 7 Days To Die and Dead Island!

 

[Riamus]

Considering the basis of the game was open world sandbox game. Granted there are exception to any rule.

I guess what im trying to point out is to make changes to the game that have some meaningful impact with visuals and content however you want to complete this in a way which reduces the development work to implement. Leaving more time and resources to understand the core mechanics (that players are looking for) and delivering a game fundamentally that is challenging, engaging and rewards long game play.
Yeah its only my opinion that has expressed unhappiness in the game direction however i am far from a isolated case.

The thought process behind this is looking back to A13-A16 Visually for the time, the game was for the better part very average if not sub par. But the game play was really engaging. Allowing a much greater ROI for time spent.

Yeah, it's partially sandbox, but not pure sandbox. There is still a location and there will be a story related to that. But that's a different topic... and one that is so hotly (toxically) debated lately that I don't really feel like getting into that again.

As EvilPolygons said, it is where they are located, so makes sense to be there. However, there may be a chance they'll consider some kind of DLC after gold that adds new biomes and assets to allow you to be in other parts of the world. They've never commented on that, so it's probably a low chance, but it is possible. If not, it'll have to be done with mods, unfortunately. I would like the ability to do different "themes", even if it was just a replacement pack for art/biomes that didn't change anything else and you couldn't mix and match. I'd prefer being able to mix and match, but just having a replacement pack would be great.

 

[Charger265]

I would like the ability to do different "themes", even if it was just a replacement pack for art/biomes that didn't change anything else and you couldn't mix and match. I'd prefer being able to mix and match, but just having a replacement pack would be great.

Agree.. Mods at current are the only option and suspect it will stay that way as it does not appear to be on any road map.. Unless its incorporated into the topic that shall not be named..

 

[Riamus]

Maybe their next game will be either not tied at all to a location or else just be a more global type of game where you can be anywhere in the world, or at least have a decent selection of locations. That doesn't help much, considering it'll be many years before that'll really be in any state that is really worth playing (at least, I wouldn't have played this game in the early alphas, though I know others don't mind that).