PC B233 Forge

7 points mate. The fourth level of int costs 2 points. It's almost like they don't even bother to do conceptual testing before making changes.. Oh wait...
Click to expand...
Do you need a grill to make grilled meat now? And does it have different stats than charred meat?

Was puzzled over that in earlier builds. Grill wasn't even useful (at least not for cooking 1).

 
7 points mate. The fourth level of int costs 2 points. It's almost like they don't even bother to do conceptual testing before making changes.. Oh wait...
Click to expand...
It's 6. 4 points to get INT to 4 (1, 1, 2). 1 point for Hammer and Forge. 1 Point for Master Chef.

But yes, I do agree that there are a lot of things falling through the cracks.

It's also worth pointing out that the grill is only used for 3 recipes now. Grilled meat, Fish Tacos, and Steak & Potatoes.

 
Do you need a grill to make grilled meat now? And does it have different stats than charred meat?Was puzzled over that in earlier builds. Grill wasn't even useful (at least not for cooking 1).
Click to expand...
yes, grilled meat has grill required on it.

Stats:

Charred Meat - 10 STAM, 5 HP, -5 Water

Boiled Meat - 10 STAM, 15 HP, 10 Water

Grilled Meat - 10 STAM, 5 HP

All of these require 5 meat. Boiled meat requiring 1 water additional.

 
Ok, this really is getting stupid now.I liked it just fine the initial A17 release.

See what happens when everyone complains, we get something worse

This is why we can't have nice things...
Click to expand...
Honestly? I'm feeling this.

The level 20 gate wasn't bad. The gates AFTER that were, but delaying the forge to 20 wasn't really a hardship.

Now wandering hordes are anemic, zombie xp got screwed, we're back to mining for xp with far less material gain.

Literally the only good change that has been made was shortening the death penalty and adding run speeds.

 
+1 to... ...Morloc
Click to expand...
Thank you!

{Malicious selective quoting!... :p }

-leveling and progression is so much slower than A16.
Click to expand...
I think as we get closer to release, we're going to see progression slow down even more. We've all been play-testers for years now, and when you have an incomplete game, there's no need to make your testers go through tons of progression....particularly when you expect them to restart their game quite often. You want people to experience all the content, find the bugs, make their suggestions; to see what folks are enjoying. You don't want people to have to play for a RL week to get a gyrocopter...or how can you get feedback?

Progression is sped up, gating is limited...so most people can experience most of the game at each update. MANY changes take place too...some I love, some I don't (I liked underground bases...because, some times I feel like a hoard, sometimes I don't). I also don't like zombies punching through concrete. I think it should be about 100x harder (seriously) to build reinforced concrete, but once you do, it's almost impervious. Certainly treated steel plated reinforced concrete should be immune to anything other than perhaps cop acid, and even then should take a long long long time to destroy. In return I'd expect to have a really really hard time encountering the same material in a POI if I wanted to break through it, and I think repairs should be a pain in the ass.

I also think zombies should damage themselves when the are punching or digging through stuff. Not like old-spike damage, just something that would eventually kill some straggler that dug down 9 blocks and you can't easily find it to kill. That said, I roll with the changes and make my case as needed.

TFP is going to make changes we like, and ones we don't. Always consider whether there's other people who might actually like the latest changes and consider whether some of the changes are due to limitations imposed by the engine. By all means, make your case for whatever ails you. It's generally better to sway people with a silver tongue than an ice-pick.

-Morloc

 
Just a heads up for anyone making the forge in B233. You now need 5 duct tape and 5 nails to make bellows in addition to the original wood, short iron pipe, and leather. So don't scrap any nails you find before making the forge or you'll have to find some more or find a working forge to make some.
Click to expand...
The nails are ridiculous.

Can't say I support this but... I guess we'll get used to it.

If all of this was in A16 I wouldnt have batted an eye... If it would have been released at the start of A17 experimental, I wouldn't have cared...

But NOW after they removed levelgates AND made forges require int 5... I absolutely hate it because I know they just want players to play without a forge for longer! For new players, this might be fine... but for everyone who has played back when the forge was locked behind an rng book, we absolutely LOVED beeing able to make the forge as soon as possible... and now this...

I don'T think anyone really waits this long and just looks out for a forge poi anyways on day 1...

(and now they remove working forges from pois, just you watch)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure yet if this is a good thing.

In A16 I could have a workbench and forge up and running by midnight day 3.

[sometimes... I'll admit that's a pretty lucky game but.... what's my name?]

Now with A17 we're not seeing a forge for along time.

I don't know if it's good or bad.

I'll play a few .... maybe I'll enjoy it.

I can see a LOOOOOOOOT of people feeling like Vik here.

 
I don't know, I haven't tried it yet but conceptually I like it. It WILL feel like an achievement to actually collect everything that is needed, and WILL feel gratifying once done. What wasn't gratifiying was being level 10 and thinking "welp, all I need to do now is grind 10 levels and I'll have it". Wouldn't happen earlier, wouldn't happen later, wouldn't happen differently than by simply putting a point down once you're there.

At least now I can think of scenariis where I find nails early and get my 6 levels ASAP, or scenariis where I don't and I have to play around not having a forge for some time. Change of pace, need for adaptability, unpredictability. Everything that level gates lacked.

 
Something i noticed in B233...traders have a HUGE variety of gear levels now, AND most of it comes with several mods...

If the mod slots on trader bought items gets fixed, I can see a no-forge playthru that focuses on loot bonus and trader price boosts...

Wait...nevermind. Still can't get ammo in anywhere close to sufficient quantities without a big intelligence investment for bullet recipes, still can't get vehicles (roaming playstyle suffers with only running) since they aren't sold by traders, so even with their strides towards a wide variety of loot qualities and availabilities, every SP player or MP group will need an "int monkey" that has to spend all his points just so you can actually survive a horde or get places...

well then...so much for that idea...

 
If the mod slots on trader bought items gets fixed, I can see a no-forge playthru that focuses on loot bonus and trader price boosts...
Click to expand...
That is going to make the Vagrant .... er... Nomad style players happy.

As long as Traders get a little boost, like you say, for ammo and a few other things.....

...I can see this being viable!

 
We have a winner, folks.
I mean, when you have 14+ months development on an update and almost zero of it was end game content and every design choice is subtractive from "normal" gameplay to prolong the early game...

BTW, I love quests, POI dungeons, and vehicles but none of that gives me something new to do at end game.
Click to expand...
This.

I commented on this a few times as we were getting nice texture updates etc, and pretty much got shouted down.

Then stuff like the behemoth got dropped, but we got a nice trellis to climb.

Bandits pushed back (again) but now we have a "dungeon" of the same zombies.

 
That is going to make the Vagrant .... er... Nomad style players happy.
As long as Traders get a little boost, like you say, for ammo and a few other things.....

...I can see this being viable!
Click to expand...
Yeah, if we could get SUFFICIENT ammo and eventually vehicles from a trader, it'd be a big boost.... the main thing I'd love to see with this attribute system...is being able to skip ANY given attribute and still have a rewarding game experience.

Right now I find intelligence (in the extreme) and strength (somewhat, but not as serious as intelligence) are must- haves in every game... bar none (and i mean in every single player game and in every multiplayer TEAM, even if individuals can skip something)

 
Yeah, if we could get SUFFICIENT ammo and eventually vehicles from a trader, it'd be a big boost.... the main thing I'd love to see with this attribute system...is being able to skip ANY given attribute and still have a rewarding game experience.
Right now I find intelligence (in the extreme) and strength (somewhat, but not as serious as intelligence) are must- haves in every game... bar none (and i mean in every single player game and in every multiplayer TEAM, even if individuals can skip something)
Click to expand...
Okay but how does this compare with other similar games?

Don't some of those have attributes that everyone buys?

I wonder...

... then when you see something like Diablo where different characters have unique skill sets... you have to kinda wonder.

Could that sort of thing be introduced here?

Maybe not to that extent of course but... it's a valid question.

The other question I would ask is whether that's a little bit of what TFP are going for here?

[shrug]

I don't know. No answers today, just a lot of questions.

You made a really good point and now it's got me wondering.

 
If all of this was in A16 I wouldnt have batted an eye... If it would have been released at the start of A17 experimental, I wouldn't have cared...

But NOW after they removed levelgates AND made forges require int 5... I absolutely hate it because I know they just want players to play without a forge for longer! For new players, this might be fine... but for everyone who has played back when the forge was locked behind an rng book, we absolutely LOVED beeing able to make the forge as soon as possible... and now this...

I don'T think anyone really waits this long and just looks out for a forge poi anyways on day 1...

(and now they remove working forges from pois, just you watch)
Click to expand...
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that as a veteran player, you've gone through the process of getting a forge enough times that at this point, you just want the forge. You don't need the experience of it being challenging anymore?

If so, then at that point, wouldn't you just say "F" it and creative mode you a forge or something? Or am I misunderstanding the issue?

 
By the time I could build a forge, mid afternoon day 7(really needed it to efficiently produce iron for barbed wire), I had enough nails and tape from looting to build a dozen forges.

The extra requirements were a non issue.

 
I also think zombies should damage themselves when the are punching or digging through stuff. Not like old-spike damage, just something that would eventually kill some straggler that dug down 9 blocks and you can't easily find it to kill. That said, I roll with the changes and make my case as needed.

-Morloc
Click to expand...
I was thinking this the other day. I do like that zombies can dig because I always felt that underground bases should not be forever safe. But then you have an issue where they can do it too quickly. Of course, there is this issue of zombies clawing through steel at unbelievable rates. So, I was also thinking that when they damage blocks, it should damage them a little. It would be kinda cool if they lost their hands, then their forearms, then their arms, before just dying though. I have seen movie scenes of this happening with persistent zombies, and I think it's brilliant.

 
By the time I could build a forge, mid afternoon day 7(really needed it to efficiently produce iron for barbed wire), I had enough nails and tape from looting to build a dozen forges. The extra requirements were a non issue.
Click to expand...
Interesting.

See I think that's the kind of input TFP are looking for.

That's good too. Sounds like the changes aren't really going to be a problem.

 
I don't think extra requirement is all that hard to get. I have 5 tape and 19 nails day one at 13:.00 hours from just collecting garbage bags on the way to traders.

 
They also pushed iron tools back...
TFP:

- (A17) we're going to gate the forge so players can't reliably get iron before level 20

- (B221) actually players are getting to 20 really fast...lets slow down levelling to stall off that benchmark level

- (B231) well lets remove level gate so players can get forge early if they want

- (still B231) not THAT early! whoa! we're pushing forge back to INT 5 and making stamina tougher so they have a harder time getting forge early

- (sneaky B231) also, lets sneak in nails and duct tape to the forge recipe! hah! now they need to find a forge, to MAKE a forge (reliably). hilarious!

- (B233) ok ok fine, you can get your forge back at INT 4...but we're adding a new rank of the forge perk to restrict iron tools, and THAT'S still at INT 5...so you can get your forge earlier right? even though making effective use of it is now 1 point FURTHER away...

its so flip-floppy....
Click to expand...
or as we say in the business...developy and experimenty.

 
or as we say in the business...developy and experimenty.
Click to expand...
Or you could:

1. Test the early game

2. Actually get a designer that knows how to design FTUE

I'm sorry, but the way the stealth nerfs are coming in and out it seems someone in there does not actually know what he is doing. You can say whatever you want, changing things so drastically in such a short period of time reeks of amateur work. You can dismiss what i say, and i'm not saying this to brag or anything: i do work in the gaming industry for 15 years, and i'm not saying i'd fire the guy who takes this shots, but i'd most certainly move him out of my team if i could because he can't make up his mind or he can't design an actual progression curve. Whoever has done this job, it's done poorly. He/She doesn't deserve a pat on the back.

 
Or you could:
1. Test the early game

2. Actually get a designer that knows how to design FTUE

I'm sorry, but the way the stealth nerfs are coming in and out it seems someone in there does not actually know what he is doing. You can say whatever you want, changing things so drastically in such a short period of time reeks of amateur work. You can dismiss what i say, and i'm not saying this to brag or anything: i do work in the gaming industry for 15 years, and i'm not saying i'd fire the guy who takes this shots, but i'd most certainly move him out of my team if i could because he can't make up his mind or he can't design an actual progression curve. Whoever has done this job, it's done poorly. He/She doesn't deserve a pat on the back.
Click to expand...
This. A million times, this.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top