RestInPieces
New member
S.P.F.I.A.
Luck, charisma, radiant quests and a 4-options dialogue systems with 4 identical options.
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- Thread starter Crater Creator
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Luck, charisma, radiant quests and a 4-options dialogue systems with 4 identical options.
DarlingCows
New member
You are right, A16 skills focus on building skills by working at them. We will just have to wait for A17 to come out to see how the new skills work.
Counter-examples to your first claim in the strength tree ONLY:
1) Wrecking crew power attack is a completely new mechanic
2) Sex-Try grants stamina on death blows at level 5 of the perk
3) Flurry of Blows adds a crit after x continues blows, beginning at level 2 of the perk
4) Stay down gives an AOE stun effect beginning at level 3
5) Heavy metal adds AOE to knockdown at level 3
6) Pack mule makes you get more inventory slots
Counter-examples to your second claim in the strength tree ONLY:
2) Sex-Try grants stamina on death blows at level 5 of the perk
3) Flurry of Blows adds a crit after x continues blows, beginning at level 2 of the perk
4) Stay down gives an AOE stun effect beginning at level 3
5) Heavy metal adds AOE to knockdown at level 3
Now that was just in the strength tree, there are more examples in the other trees. About the same in perception, slightly less in Int, much less in the last two. Obvious sign they had less time for the later trees, surely because they don't want to delay A17 much further. Much more than reasonably could be summarized with "the same" or even "pretty much the same".
They also already said this wouldn't be the final version of the perks, they plan to add more stuff. I think their goal is probably that almost all perks have a second effect that kicks in at a higher level to make specializing interesting and the higher perk levels something one really wants.
Roland
Community Moderator
I think it plain to see that these devs aren’t afraid to take all the time they want and they have plenty of resources. No, this is a difference in philosophy. These devs philosophically are against the increase skills through grinding method. They do actually like the point spending method and as I have read reactions it seems that there are players who feel as you do but others who feel as the devs do. They aren’t taking the “easy” way out due to laziness or time constraints. They are making a design choice based on their own preferences. Of course, not all will agree with their preferred design.
Roland
Community Moderator
Here’s the thing. If that is what is fun and immersive for you then you can do it under the new system. Don’t spend a point on shooting accuracy until you’ve gone out and shot 20 zombies in the head. Then spend your point. If you leveled up after killing zombies but you want to spend your point on improving crop yields then go and plant and harvest 20 crops and then spend your point. Role playing is partially dependent on the system but also on the willingness of the player to act out the role. You’ve already admitted that this type of advancing is important to you and fun. There is nothing in the new system that stops you from enjoying yourself in the manner you described.
Now...if what you REALLY enjoyed was min/maxing and grinding repetitively to try and attain higher levels as quickly as possible then the new method does crimp that playstyle quite a bit. But since you stated you didn’t like the spam crafting you should try roleplaying learning by doing whenever you decide you want to spend a point. Personally, I’ve felt that in A17 the points are pretty representative of all my actions and I haven’t really felt like I learned better cooking by bashing zombie heads with my club. But everyone’s immersion sensitivity is different.
ricp
New member
Completely agree. Which is why I have a liking for the current progression and purchasing model we have now. It could certainly be re-jigged, expanded or given a more 'tree-like' basis, but for me it "philosophically" feels about right. Going to a purchase only method doesn't, or not to me anyway.
With that said, it's their game to develop how they wish. I've got an opinion, sure, but that shouldn't hold any great weight here. I mentioned before about the grind of A15, multiple stone axe simulator as it was, and that it was a good thing that it was removed for A16. I'm also on record as saying I'm happy for change.
Certainly the skills look the least developed of all the game's areas, and certainly from Joel's videos it seems like this is one of the final things to be "tied up", as it were. And the number of placeholders and his uncertainty surrounding some of the things would suggest that.
I don't want it to seem like I am blaming or castigating TFP for this, though, It's a nightmare developing games of any size and while time constraints will always be an issue (that's just part of the job) I certainly wouldn't consider the devs lazy.
All in all the trouble is, and you have touched on this in your previous post, we are comparing a mature and "live" system in A16 with a proposed and unfinished system in an alpha build the general public hasn't yet played.
ricp
New member
Just a minor thing on this, while I do agree with you, you sort of hit the nail on the head with the "philosophy" of it. It doesn't seem right to me to be able to reward yourself with farming ability for doing something not related to farming.
Now to be fair, that is sort of the way some of A16 skills work. Kill zombies for XP, XP gives you points and you can spend those points on non-zombie killing skills (like steel smithing or the workbench). It's the removal of the progression element that, for me, removes a bit of the immersion.
As mentioned in my last reply, I'll go with the flow, and I'm sure that if A17 is as moddable as A16 then someone will bring out a reworked skill setup mod if there are enough people who don't like the new vanilla one.
We'll see when A17 hits.... ideally within the next month or so.
Roland
Community Moderator
I agree that the perks that are simply a progression of % seem lackluster compared to the perks that actually grant different abilities at each level. If someone wants to start an Alt Perk thread with suggestions to replace those perks that are simple % increases I’d point Madmole’s attention to it.
For example the Parkour perk simply increases jump height by a %. Instead, maybe one level grants wall sliding, another grants a side jump dodging move, another allows climbing a sheer cliff, and another a 2-block jump ability.
For example the Parkour perk simply increases jump height by a %. Instead, maybe one level grants wall sliding, another grants a side jump dodging move, another allows climbing a sheer cliff, and another a 2-block jump ability.
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
What is the point of percent jump unless its 100 percent to get you another block? I'm asking, not saying its stupid - though I admit I'm leaning heavily that way.
Roland
Community Moderator
Well, the original point was to counteract encumbrance which made it so you couldn’t even jump one block high. But then through testing it was decided that a one-block high jump should always be the minimum height to be able to jump. Since that decision nothing has been done to change the parkour perk but it may still get some love.
ricp
New member
I appreciate that it would involve a lot of reworking because (presumably) the underlying code doesn't support different, physical, weight for each item, but the encumbrance based on slot rather than weight is a bit daft. Lots of games do it, so this is just a general point, but having one slot filled with hundreds of stacked stone should weigh far more than many slots filled with feathers. I could be wrong here, but from Joel's videos that's the way the encumbrance looks to work.
Maybe that could be for A18..
Out of interest is the "smell metric" back in?
LuckyStar
New member
Ugh! Realism? Really? You're going there?I appreciate that it would involve a lot of reworking because (presumably) the underlying code doesn't support different, physical, weight for each item, but the encumbrance based on slot rather than weight is a bit daft. Lots of games do it, so this is just a general point, but having one slot filled with hundreds of stacked stone should weigh far more than many slots filled with feathers. I could be wrong here, but from Joel's videos that's the way the encumbrance looks to work.
Maybe that could be for A18..
Out of interest is the "smell metric" back in?
Game play rules all.
Encumbrance and inventories in general in a game like this will never be realistic because ....
... and this the most important part....
....players don't WANT it to be realistic. It's not fun.
If the game is balanced and provides a fun challenge then so what if it's not realistic.
Players don't seem to care that much.
- Zombies aren't real.
- There's not really an apocalypse.
- There isn't really a Madmole [he's clearly CGI ....duh.]
Anyway.... not to take this too seriously but... not really sure realism needs to be in this conversation.
Stones and feathers aren't going to weigh what they do irl and that's that.
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
Thaanks for the explanation. I would have used the perk points to unencumber the slots instead of just fix the jumping tho... lol
I think a double or triple jump off walls mechanic would be cool ... and doesnt sound daunting to implement, atleast to me.
Edit, please make it known we dont need this fixed for A17
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... and because the builder part of the game absolutely needs inventory to ignore realistic encumbrance.
ricp
New member
So should we have lasers, spaceships, aliens and teleporting? Maybe all zombies should fly, perhaps we should dispense with gravity? All these things are stupid ideas in relation to 7DtD because it's not realistic. You seem to show complete disdain for the concept yet the devs go to great lengths to create realism.
It's not a case of "me going there", it's a case of everyone going there because it's part of the game. It's always been part of the game and you are a bit late to the party to rail against it now.
What you have done here is assume, arrogantly, that because you don't "WANT" it, then nobody does. You are categorically wrong here. I would hazard the vast, vast, majority want a considerable level of realism, what is debatable is how much realism.
You are providing a false dichotomy here. Guess, what? A game can be both realistic and fun, you seem to dismiss this notion out of hand.
Once again, this is not correct as the numerous comments on here, the numerous mods available and the numerous streamers putting endless content regarding the game go to demonstrate.
Well they aren't going to just now, that's for sure, as I can see no mechanism to gauge relative weights. It would involve a massive rework, or at the very least reviewing every single item in the game.
What you have to understand is TFP have added encumbrance to the game. This isn't a suggestion, a whim, a request, it's happening. So it's already here, your "anti-realism" rant is moot. My contention is that if you are to implement it, then it should be done properly not done so in bits.
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ricp
New member
Look, of course I don't want to ruin the game in any way, however encumbrance has already been introduced for A17 you are just going to have to live with that. You are making a claim that it would "destroy building", that really is a level of melodrama that isn't needed, especially when absolutely no details were put forward for it. You could claim in game gravity "destroys building" and I'm talking metaphorically here, because literally of course gravity destroys buildings!, as it stops you placing block akin to Minecraft in creative mode. I don't see you posting on the forums to remove gravity.
What if the idea was properly fleshed out? What if there was an introduction of a wheelbarrow or carts for shifting large loads? Or you had to build pulleys to haul stone or iron from mines to ground level, or scaffolding around buildings to bring materials to the roof. You'd still be achieving exactly what you did before, it's just more complex, more in depth and I would wager adds considerably more the experience.
It's the complexity, the added depth, that makes games good, not pandering to the lowest common denominator purely because "it's easier that way".
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