PC Attributes should probably go

[Sal]

Many RPG games have multiple skill trees you have to work through to get to higher tier skills/perks so I don't see the issue here.  These types of systems encourages playing the game more then once in order to experience the game in different ways.

Having a skill trees is one thing. But the perks under those skill trees and what they offer is another. The difference between 7dtd and other RPGs is that the skill trees actually make sense, for the most part, and I can't say the same for 7dtd.  There are too many sub perks are downright silly to even spend any points on at all regardless of play style.

For example, and kind of to the OPs point, why would I ever want to willingly spend any points in charismatic nature? Like ever? It serves no benefit whatsoever. Regardless of what style of play or role play that I'm aiming for, it's a useless perk that serves no real purpose at all. But yet, I have to put points into the same skill tree in order to unlock the perks that are important in early game. Like engineering, so I can unlock the forge, bench, chem, etc.

Why would anyone ever put points into pack mule either? Why? There are 45 slots in total and you start out with all but 18 of them unlocked and by day 5 it's easy to unlock 6-7 of those. After the tutorial, you have two fiber clothing items that can be equipped with 2 pocket mods by the end of day one, and 3 pocket mods if you find an overcoat (which are as easy to find as plant fibers). That alone unlocks 15 of the 18 left. And pocket mods are so easy to make too since you can find everything on day 1 as well. 2 leather/1 duct tape/15 cloth/1 sewing kit.  You start out surrounded by cotton to use to make cloth with.  Duct tape...pff glue and murky water is everywhere and so is leather. Sewing kits are the most 'rare' but I use that term loosely in this case since it's so easy to find. This isn't even counting the armor you find so easily too that can be equipped with 'armor mods' that are also so easily found or earned thru a trader. You can craft T1 padded armor on day 1 too. Throw in an armor mod and that unlocks an additional 4 slots which leaves only 11 slots left to unlock after day 5, at best. And if your a REALLY pressed, because your such a hoarder like me, then feel free to shoot yourself up with one of the 15 steroid shots that you will come across within the first week. 

Lock picking, animal tracking, infiltrator, brawler, huntsman, well insulted, iron gut, treasure hunter .......why?

Animals/food is everywhere. Treasure chests are always located around the south. Brawler is okay if your just looking to try something different but otherwise it's utterly useless. Weather doesn't have a big enough effect to ever put any points into it. Lock picking is easy as hell, and the use of lock picks in general become obsolete so early thanks to candy, pickaxes (which are everywhere), the book that gives you 10% damage to safes. And of course augers, and the ridiculous amount of gas you can obtain to fuel the them.

Anyhow, the point is, what's the point in having a skill tree if the majority of perks hidden behind it are worthless.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

My opinion is that players who rush at all deserve the dissatisfaction they create for themselves. I couldn’t care less what the most optimal way to play is under any balance philosophy—the current one or your version of things. I don’t play the game like a spreadsheet. So yes, there currently is a way to rush and if you got everything you wished there still would be a way and Rushers would remain dissatisfied because of their approach to playing games like this. 

It was you who said that the current perk system is designed to prevent rushing and yet here you agree with me that rushing in the current system is totally possible. So hey, it doesn't matter wether attributes stay or go. As long as there are perk systems, some people will speedrun some perks since it gives them satisfaction.

I know but I don’t agree with your premise that they need to be balanced or fixed all that much in the first place. I like them asymmetrical because I like to play the game with different builds that feel different. 

Okay, but how do perks being balanced in power suddenly remove the "different feel" of various builds? If you want different difficulties, we already have like 20 sliders for that.

It’s okay to be shut out of some options by choosing other options. 

Yes, this is how builds are supposed to work. I'm not here arguing that we should be able to get every perk in the game by the time we hit lvl100.

Because that is fun for anyone who allows themselves to make suboptimal choices for the sake of building a less than perfect character and try to survive as that type of character. We don’t call it being penalized— we call it having options for characters that are truly different rather than cookie cutter versions of each other from the perspective of optimized power progression. 
Absolutely some mixes are going to be harder to play than others so if you have to turn down the difficulty to succeed then you try that if the mix you want is kicking your butt at the difficulty you selected.

I'm not saying that a meme fists-only build with maxed Lucky Looter, Infiltrator, Pack Mule, Well Insulated and Charismatic Nature should be as good as the most meta of meta builds. I'm saying that there should be more that 5 good builds. Look, I'm probably the biggest sucker for stupid, off-meta, meme builds. I will always try to play a "different" build, but "different" builds in 7d2d are often just straight up frustrating to play. 

So why not make all builds easily viable at any difficulty setting?  Because somewhere there is someone who CAN succeed with their points spread out at the highest difficulty and they appreciate the challenge.

Should we now balance games around 1% of players?

What we probably could use is a pre-game option menu where the player could swap perks to different slots and reorganize which perks fall under which category so that if someone just was no longer having fun with the current organization they could mix things up. 

Damn man, you just removed attributes without removing attributes, kinda.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

Many RPG games have multiple skill trees you have to work through to get to higher tier skills/perks so I don't see the issue here.  These types of systems encourages playing the game more then once in order to experience the game in different ways.

OP, perhaps if you provide us with some sample games that have a similar skill system you have in mind people can have a better understanding what your hoping for.

I've seen many different perk/skill/talent trees. I've never seen a system were you FIRST spend points to unlock higher tier skills and then use points FROM THE SAME POOL to unlock said skills.
Note my wording there, I find it normal to first unlock a tree and then buy skills, but all games I've played that do this use different point pools for both. Let's take earlier Fallout games for example. You have your SPECIAL poins, Skill points and Perk points, that works perfectly fine. Honestly that type of solution would probably work instead of removing attributes in 7d2d.
My point is: the current perk system needs more freedom.

 

[The-Walking-Dad]

But the current design is changing in a pretty significant way for A21 in any case so the current normal is already legacy...

Damnit, Roland! Bomb dropped.

Have you had a chance to experience the New Way yet, or is it still on the drawing board at this time?

 

[Laz Man]

I've seen many different perk/skill/talent trees. I've never seen a system were you FIRST spend points to unlock higher tier skills and then use points FROM THE SAME POOL to unlock said skills.
Note my wording there, I find it normal to first unlock a tree and then buy skills, but all games I've played that do this use different point pools for both. Let's take earlier Fallout games for example. You have your SPECIAL poins, Skill points and Perk points, that works perfectly fine. Honestly that type of solution would probably work instead of removing attributes in 7d2d.
My point is: the current perk system needs more freedom.

Good point regarding the same point pool.  However, isn't it just semantics/sensibilities given how many skill points the player has access too per run?  

I don't disagree that some skills need to be overhauled/moved/changed, but overall I feel the attribute gate helps more then it hurts in its current iteration.

 

[Boidster]

It’s okay to be shut out of some options by choosing other options. 

But if I eat the cake, then I won't have the cake! How would I even?

Stop liking what I don't like.

I use Charismatic Nature in every game, but I'm a team player. Also animal tracking, lock picking, huntsman, and treasure hunter, depending on my mood. Who are you to decide what is or is not a useful skill to other people?

Okay, you're right on Pack Mule. But my solution to that would be something like having Pack Mule open up spots even to pocket mods. That is, if you haven't Pack-Mule'd the spots yet, then pocket mods won't help. And you still need the pocket mods to actually use the spots. So maybe 3 spots are unlocked, but not usable when you start. You can make pocket mods to make them usable. Beyond that, additional mods won't help until you perk into Pack Mule to unlock the spots.

Pack Mule = "I can effectively carry more weight"

Pocket Mods = "I have crafted containers where I can put all that weight I can now carry"

I do not expect this will be a popular idea.

 

[BFT2020]

I've seen many different perk/skill/talent trees. I've never seen a system were you FIRST spend points to unlock higher tier skills and then use points FROM THE SAME POOL to unlock said skills.
Note my wording there, I find it normal to first unlock a tree and then buy skills, but all games I've played that do this use different point pools for both. Let's take earlier Fallout games for example. You have your SPECIAL poins, Skill points and Perk points, that works perfectly fine. Honestly that type of solution would probably work instead of removing attributes in 7d2d.
My point is: the current perk system needs more freedom.

You mentioned Fallout (earlier games), but didn't specifically mentioned the later ones (Fallout 3, NV, and 4).  Those games are more aligned with the way that TFP have setup 7D2D.  In order to unlock the higher perks in any of the SPECIAL branches, you have to increase those branches using the same points you use for the actual perks.  Those games are a perfect example of where you have to spend points first to level up that tree, then unlock the perk points - all from the same pool.

Fallout 1 I remember clearly, you choose your attributes level at the beginning, and then as you leveled up, you gained points that you can place into your various skills.  However, your initial SPECIAL build limited what you could unlock as you had little opportunities to increase those stats (if I am remembering correctly, a Brotherhood doctor could boost some of them by 1 via paying them - expensive).

Skyrim didn't have anything like SPECIAL, but had the various skill trees.  You gain perk points every time you leveled up, but you couldn't unlock higher level perks until you have enough experience in those skill trees - i.e. LBD.  A lot of people want TFP to go that route, but that system is constantly abused.

There are various systems out there for attributes / skills / perk trees, and they all have their own pros and cons.

One way around the current 7D2D system is you can mod it so after you complete the first easy survivor missions, you get a set amount of skills points that the player puts in the PSFAI attributes and then every skill point you earn after that only goes into the actual perks.

 

[Sal]

Stop liking what I don't like.

I use Charismatic Nature in every game, but I'm a team player. Also animal tracking, lock picking, huntsman, and treasure hunter, depending on my mood. Who are you to decide what is or is not a useful skill to other people?

Good for you but I'd say your in the minority.





So who are YOU to decide. Now go sit down son.

 

[theFlu]

Most skill trees I've seen are unlocked by getting "lower" tiers of skills first; and then getting to choose higher tier skills after enough points spent. (for a pretty clean example, borderlands). Your options increase as you go up, and usually the character specializes more and more into a subset.

For the 7dtd version, I don't know if it should even be called a tree; it looks more like a cactus, one trunk and 10 spikes every other level. All your skills are available on level 1, and then you have to pile points in one thing to unlock the next level of .. everything. It doesn't help that the "one" thing pretends to be 5 "different" things, by limiting the application of the same exact skill to oddly specific weapons.

For me, it doesn't really play well, and it doesn't make "realistic" sense either; I'd much rather have a real "class select" at the start.

 

[BFT2020]

Good for you but I'd say your in the minority.

Don't think that poll proves what and who is in the minority.  The number of responses on the poll is very insignificant compared to the player base.

At most, you can say Boidster might be in the minority of the people that actually responded to the poll.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

Most skill trees I've seen are unlocked by getting "lower" tiers of skills first; and then getting to choose higher tier skills after enough points spent. (for a pretty clean example, borderlands). Your options increase as you go up, and usually the character specializes more and more into a subset.

Payday 2 does this style of trees too and it's amazing. I discover new ways to play these titles even today. Plus what do you know, many of the "meme" builds in these games are totally viable aside from the most challegining difficulties/bosses.

You mentioned Fallout (earlier games), but didn't specifically mentioned the later ones (Fallout 3, NV, and 4).  Those games are more aligned with the way that TFP have setup 7D2D.  In order to unlock the higher perks in any of the SPECIAL branches, you have to increase those branches using the same points you use for the actual perks.  Those games are a perfect example of where you have to spend points first to level up that tree, then unlock the perk points - all from the same pool.

I might've worded that better, but by "earlier" I actually meant 3 and NV (I consider 1 and 2 "the old" and 4 "the newest"). I distinctly remember those two games had 3 different point pools for SPECIAL, Skills and Perks (unless I'm just wrong and my memory is garbo). Didn't play 1 and 2 so I won't talk about them.

Skyrim didn't have anything like SPECIAL, but had the various skill trees.  You gain perk points every time you leveled up, but you couldn't unlock higher level perks until you have enough experience in those skill trees - i.e. LBD.  A lot of people want TFP to go that route, but that system is constantly abused.

I won't really get into the LBD because I kinda figure that here is now way it's coming back. I don't even particularly want it back, although I wouldn't mind it. I'm just replying to this because I had this thought as I was reading your post. What if LBD was reintroduced but only for weapons? Kind of an off-topic idea.

 

[Roland]

It was you who said that the current perk system is designed to prevent rushing and yet here you agree with me that rushing in the current system is totally possible. So hey, it doesn't matter whether attributes stay or go. As long as there are perk systems, some people will speedrun some perks since it gives them satisfaction.

The difference is that what people consider the most desirable (read optimal) perks are currently spread across different attribute trees. So yes, people speed run but they still must pay very high costs in order to get the most powerful perks. If attributes are removed so that any perks can be bought in any combination then rushing to the powerful perks is even faster and easier which means the devs would have to put exorbitant costs on those perks anyway which would make people mad since they would still be spending about the same amounts as they are now in order to max out.

Okay, but how do perks being balanced in power suddenly remove the "different feel" of various builds? If you want different difficulties, we already have like 20 sliders for that.

Because human nature. The devs want there to be archetypes and so there are. You can still ignore those archetypes and purchase whatever you want but it is pricey to do and slower to build up and progress. As I mentioned, I think re-categorizing the perks or getting rid of the attributes would be a nice optional version of the game or a cool mod, but I don't think the current model is bad. I think it can provide for 100s of hours of entertainment exploring the five primary attributes and then doing combos of pairs of them and then even other more esoteric combos as challenges.

Yes, this is how builds are supposed to work. I'm not here arguing that we should be able to get every perk in the game by the time we hit lvl100.

I know. But you have a specific combination of perks you want earlier in the game than you can currently get them and it irritates you that they are separated across attributes making them more costly. I never thought or meant to convey that you wanted everything by lvl 100. You just have your own dream list of perks that you want much earlier than is currently possible.

but "different" builds in 7d2d are often just straight up frustrating to play. 

Why? What makes them frustrating? From your posts so far I would guess that it is because they are sub-optimal and way too expensive and slow so that the game catches up with you power-wise and passes you by while you are trying to build up enough points to purchase what you need. In addition is is annoying that the extra costs unlock abilities you don't plan to use. Is that it or is there more?

Should we now balance games around 1% of players?

Not at all. But we also don't nerf things just because some people think they are unviable at their top difficulty limit. The game is balanced around nomad difficulty which is default +1. Some people play at the highest difficulty and then complain that certain things make the highest difficulty impossible for them and so they want those things changed so that the highest difficulty becomes possible for them. The way I see it is that those people should simply lower the difficulty instead of assuming that what is impossible for them must be impossible for everyone.

Gamer ego also shouldn't be the basis of how the game is balanced even though that afflicts way more than 1% of players...

Damn man, you just removed attributes without removing attributes, kinda.

Yes, but only as an option or mod. I still don't think attributes should be removed from the vanilla version but I'm very willing to let anyone mod the game however they want and I'm all for cool options being provided that can really change up the game.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Attributes don´t bother me in SP. In MP they are annoying though. In a group people specialize in something, and if you want to change you need a lot of points. So if you deceide what you specialize in, you are stuck. Game doesn´t last long enough, as it lacks challenge after like 40 days, for everyone to get a  forgettign elixir or to gather enough points to get a different route. And i still highly doubt that bandits will change the endgame that much that it really matters.

Actually not a fan of the LBD system we had, but playing Darkness Falls in MP Coop with a LBD/perk system gives you so much more freedom what to do whenever you want to do it.

 

[Rotor]

. so much more freedom ...

FREEDOOOOM!!

 

[Roland]

Damnit, Roland! Bomb dropped.

Have you had a chance to experience the New Way yet, or is it still on the drawing board at this time?

I’ve played with it but it is very much a WIP. It is interesting and fun because it is new and changes things up— but I don’t know how much better it will be and I’m sure there will be some people who won’t like it.
 

I think it is a bold change and that is always going to polarize people who like or dislike it. I’m sure there will be plenty of spice in the forums once it is fully explained and people start thinking about what it will mean for their favored gameplay and then again once they actually get to play with it and react. 

 

[BFT2020]

I might've worded that better, but by "earlier" I actually meant 3 and NV (I consider 1 and 2 "the old" and 4 "the newest"). I distinctly remember those two games had 3 different point pools for SPECIAL, Skills and Perks (unless I'm just wrong and my memory is garbo). Didn't play 1 and 2 so I won't talk about them.

Turns out we are both wrong from a memory standpoint.  Fallout 4 is what I was talking about (and my most recent experience).  Fallout 3 and NV were more similar to the skill progress of 1 & 2.

Though FO3 and FO NV, the ability to raise SPECIAL was not tied to any pool really.  It was tied to selecting perks (like intense training) that increased your SPECIALs.  However, essentially it was the same pool as 7D2D.  Every level up you earn perk points which you can either spend on Intense training to raise a SPECIAL or a specific perk as long as your SPECIAL for that perk meant the minimum requirement - which is basically the same as 7D2D.  The main difference (IMHO) between those 2 games and 7D2D was just the number of perks were much higher.  7D2D perks though seem to have more ranks (with the exception of Intense Training).

 

[ElDudorino]

TC, have you tried the Darkness Falls mod? In my opinion, it has a much more enjoyable skill system.

Attributes are gone, thank God. But, to level up perks you need to meet requirements, generally by leveling related skills in a "learn by doing" system. So, you gain points in blunt weapons skill by using blunt weapons, and then when you get perk points from leveling up you can level up the Pummel Pete perk if your blunt skill is high enough.

Also, melee weapons have been condensed so that fists, sledges, batons, and clubs share the same skills while blades and spears also share the same skills. It allows you to for example switch between sledge and fists (which are strong in DF) depending on the situation.

I think it's a huge improvement over the vanilla game. Unfortunately it's tied pretty deeply into the mod's other features and the mod is a major overhaul of the game so I don't think you'd be able to just take the skill system (and the better farming) without jumping all the way in with the mod. Still, it serves as a model of a much better system than what we have now. For one thing, it has me using skills I otherwise would have ignored because I don't want to level Perception for example.

 

[Boidster]

So who are YOU to decide. Now go sit down son.

I am nobody to decide, Dad. We are in agreement, then: neither of us should claim that this or that perk objectively "serves no useful purpose". Subjectively, for my play style, some perks are preferred, others not. For your play style, you'll prefer different perks from me. Cool, man. Play how ya like. To the extent that many different play styles all disfavor a particular perk, it could either be because a) it legit needs some tweaking (looking at you Pack Mule) or b) the play style it's designed for just isn't a very popular style (my theory about Charismatic Nature).

 

[ElDudorino]

Yeah, the big overhaul mods all seem to have buffed Pack Mule. I actually take it then. It seems like the popular thing to do is increase the backpack size but keep encumbrance as it is, so if you actually fill your large backpack early on you'll be paralyzed. Then Pack Mule unlocks a bunch of slots / reduces encumbrance by a large amount.

In the vanilla game you absolutely can say pack mule is objectively a misuse of points because you can max out your slots easily without the perk and even if you wanted to get there sooner the perk barely helps the process.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

The difference is that what people consider the most desirable (read optimal) perks are currently spread across different attribute trees. So yes, people speed run but they still must pay very high costs in order to get the most powerful perks. If attributes are removed so that any perks can be bought in any combination then rushing to the powerful perks is even faster and easier which means the devs would have to put exorbitant costs on those perks anyway which would make people mad since they would still be spending about the same amounts as they are now in order to max out.

Sure, except like half of the meta perks are in the intellect tree.

The devs want there to be archetypes and so there are. You can still ignore those archetypes and purchase whatever you want but it is pricey to do and slower to build up and progress.

Yes, this is what I wrote in the opening post. I've also said multiple times in this thread why (imo) this system is bad.

I don't think the current model is bad. I think it can provide for 100s of hours of entertainment exploring the five primary attributes and then doing combos of pairs of them and then even other more esoteric combos as challenges.

Why do you think the attribute-less system wouldn't do the same or better? Throughout this entire thread you just assume that it's going to suck because why exactly? I haven't seen a concrete reason beside "rushing" which is totally possible in the current perk system.

I know. But you have a specific combination of perks you want earlier in the game than you can currently get them and it irritates you that they are separated across attributes making them more costly. I never thought or meant to convey that you wanted everything by lvl 100. You just have your own dream list of perks that you want much earlier than is currently possible.

No, I have a specific combination of perks that I want without having to waste perk point's on crap I don't even care about.

Why? What makes them frustrating? From your posts so far I would guess that it is because they are sub-optimal and way too expensive and slow so that the game catches up with you power-wise and passes you by while you are trying to build up enough points to purchase what you need. In addition is is annoying that the extra costs unlock abilities you don't plan to use. Is that it or is there more?

Nah, that's pretty much it.

Not at all. But we also don't nerf things just because some people think they are unviable at their top difficulty limit. The game is balanced around nomad difficulty which is default +1. Some people play at the highest difficulty and then complain that certain things make the highest difficulty impossible for them and so they want those things changed so that the highest difficulty becomes possible for them. The way I see it is that those people should simply lower the difficulty instead of assuming that what is impossible for them must be impossible for everyone.

Maaan, I play on Warrior :v
Besides, you're changing the topic. You've said that we should leave garbage builds at garbage level because of some 3 guys who can "beat" the game with them. I'm saying that most builds should provide equal oppotunity to "win", just in different ways. I'm not saying we should make the game into a cakewalk.

I still don't think attributes should be removed from the vanilla version but I'm very willing to let anyone mod the game however they want and I'm all for cool options being provided that can really change up the game.

Yeah, I'd be down for it being an option if it was properly balanced, but I wouldn't be a fan of it being a mod given how buggy and unsupported those usually are.

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Though FO3 and FO NV, the ability to raise SPECIAL was not tied to any pool really.  It was tied to selecting perks (like intense training) that increased your SPECIALs.  However, essentially it was the same pool as 7D2D.  Every level up you earn perk points which you can either spend on Intense training to raise a SPECIAL or a specific perk as long as your SPECIAL for that perk meant the minimum requirement - which is basically the same as 7D2D.  The main difference (IMHO) between those 2 games and 7D2D was just the number of perks were much higher.  7D2D perks though seem to have more ranks (with the exception of Intense Training).

Nah, there is a different point pool for SPECIAL, the one you use when creating the character. Yes, I'm aware of Intense Training but it's not like the entire game is balanced around it. I'm not forced to put points into IT in order to have access to a vast amount of perks. In 7d2d I'm forced to "burn" perk points all the god damn time.