PC Attributes should probably go

[No_Name_Idea]

As in the title, attributes should be straight up removed and perk cost should be adjusted to somewhat compensate for it.

I think it would make the perk system better by not forcing you to waste points on arbitrary perk unlocking where only one or two perks interest you. The Steam store page says that this game is supposed to be an RPG while it currently feels more like a class-based shooter.
What if I want to use stealth+crossbow 90% of the time but also shotguns for emergency/blood moons, maybe throw in Daring Adventurer and Lucky Looter into the mix, you know, I want to play a role. Maxing those skills alone costs me 111 points (unless I made a mistake while calculating), that's insane. I can't even afford to give a crap about things like cooking, hunting, farming, general survivability, stamina, resource gathering, etc. I'm SOL. 

I've specifically came back to this game because I've heard it got more RPG-like while in reality it's now less RPG.

 

[BFT2020]

Pro Tip - You don't need to perk into Boomstick to be able to use shotguns.

Min - maxing is not required

 

[No_Name_Idea]

Pro Tip - You don't need to perk into Boomstick to be able to use shotguns.

Min - maxing is not required

I ain't playing on Scavenger difficulty, but okay. What about the rest of the perks then?

 

[Roland]

As in the title, attributes should be straight up removed and perk cost should be adjusted to somewhat compensate for it.

If the perk costs are adjusted then what's the difference? Just tell yourself that the cost for the attributes is simply that added cost for the perks you want. Right now you pay extra for perks that are in separate attribute categories but you also get a bonus with that extra cost that could help if you ever pick up and use any weapons from any of those attributes. If we remove the attributes and adjust the costs then you are still paying extra but getting no attribute bonuses.

The best is to simply do the math ahead of time to see what the cost is going to be for what you want to do and reconcile yourself to that cost and don't think of any associated perks that you don't care about as wasted benefits. Just pretend that it is your adjusted cost and those benefits don't exist (as they wouldn't if TFP adopted your model).

 

[theFlu]

Maxing those skills alone costs me 111 points

That's the skill cost of maxing the combat style of three trees... in DnD, that would be a usable multiclass. (As in, just no.. )

Just bite the bullet, max out one tree for combat; all of them work fine for general combat (although INT requires some "setup"). You can replace an "emergency" shotty with an emergency SMG - as in, just carry two extra stacks of ammo for your main weapon for the slots saved.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

If the perk costs are adjusted then what's the difference?

The difference is 16 points vs whatever would end up as the "adjustment". I'm not an expert in game balance so I won't say that perk X should require Y more perk points to get Z level because of attribute removal. Maybe some perks wouldn't need any more investment just because they're underwhelming, maybe some perks would need more points because of how busted they are. That's another bonus of attribute removal - balancing the cost of every perk would be easier since nobody has to account for the massive 16 point gate to that perk + opportunity cost of only taking that one perk vs taking half of the perks in that attribute.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

That's the skill cost of maxing the combat style of three trees... in DnD, that would be a usable multiclass. (As in, just no.. )

Just bite the bullet, max out one tree for combat; all of them work fine for general combat (although INT requires some "setup"). You can replace an "emergency" shotty with an emergency SMG - as in, just carry two extra stacks of ammo for your main weapon for the slots saved.

You're missing my point, I just don't really want to play with an SMG. I don't want to play the role of a guy with an smg. And that's only an example, maybe I'd want to max Lucky Looter, Mother Lode, Living Off The Land and Better Barter for the ultimate hoarder experience? No, instead I'm strongarmed into playing a big manly man, tenacious machine gun boy, stealth boy, scavenge boy, or a skinny trading nerdlinger.

Honestly, another way to kinda fix perks would be to disconnect combat perks from weapon damage, but I honestly doubt that's ever gonna happen.

 

[SURVIVE]

As in the title, attributes should be straight up removed and perk cost should be adjusted to somewhat compensate for it.

I think it would make the perk system better by not forcing you to waste points on arbitrary perk unlocking where only one or two perks interest you. The Steam store page says that this game is supposed to be an RPG while it currently feels more like a class-based shooter.
What if I want to use stealth+crossbow 90% of the time but also shotguns for emergency/blood moons, maybe throw in Daring Adventurer and Lucky Looter into the mix, you know, I want to play a role. Maxing those skills alone costs me 111 points (unless I made a mistake while calculating), that's insane. I can't even afford to give a crap about things like cooking, hunting, farming, general survivability, stamina, resource gathering, etc. I'm SOL. 

I've specifically came back to this game because I've heard it got more RPG-like while in reality it's now less RPG.

Yeah it was supposed to be a zombie apocalypse with realistic qualities as far as crafting, weapons, hunting and gathering, farming and ultimately finding out what happened. But every update seemed to take away more and more of that aspect. Now I'm not sure what this game is trying to be, but near completion isn't the word.

 

[theFlu]

You're missing my point, I just don't really want to play with an SMG.

I do agree with your underlying idea; that the skill trees are quite .. frustrating. They're designed to be classes and self-sufficient, but that makes all the interconnected choices quite meh. Forced.

But your complaint about "maxing three trees for combat" isn't exactly great; whatever weapon you choose to pick as your main, works just fine alone; snipers or INT being more finicky, but still fine with proper prep. You don't need an "emergency weapon from another tree". And you don't need to max out something like better barter or miner - and staying at 4 instead of 5 saves a ton of points while getting most of the benefit.

But yeh, there used to LBD... but that's a rabbit hole with an equine carcass at the bottom.

 

[Roland]

The difference is 16 points vs whatever would end up as the "adjustment".

You're assuming there would be a difference. The costs are designed to prevent us from rushing the 5 or 6 most OP perks in the entire list. If they did away with attributes those tantalizing 5-7 perks you want most that are spread across the attributes would still have exorbitant costs assigned in order to get them all because the developers recognize which perks are going to be the most popular and which perks would be the go to instant choices of pretty much everyone every time they played the game. So price adjustments would still be designed to spread those out and not allow players to gobble those up with their first 50-100 points.

That's another bonus of attribute removal - balancing the cost of every perk would be easier since nobody has to account for the massive 16 point gate to that perk + opportunity cost of only taking that one perk vs taking half of the perks in that attribute.

I see those as more interesting choices that we have to make and the devs are not going to rid the game of opportunity cost so that we can just easily ignore all of the perks we don't care about. Do that and they might as well have a list of perks about 10 items long since everyone would always pick the same 10 perks every time they played.

And that's only an example, maybe I'd want to max Lucky Looter, Mother Lode, Living Off The Land and Better Barter for the ultimate hoarder experience? No, instead I'm strongarmed into playing a big manly man, tenacious machine gun boy, stealth boy, scavenge boy, or a skinny trading nerdlinger.

No you are not strong-armed. You could get that mix of perks for the ultimate hoarder experience but it would be very costly to do so....and so what? That would be your different experience for one playthrough. It would mean going without other benefits you were used to having in your game so you could develop that type of character and it would be a longer game to achieve that. You wouldn't be able to develop into that type of character in a rush. Or you could do whatever you wanted until you were ready and then buy the forgettin elixir and switch instantly to that ultimate hoarder experience. The basic character types you mentioned are the easy ones-- the basic ones you start with your first several playthroughs. Then, once you are more experienced you can try some of the more costly character types that are slower to build and require you to forego some of the benefits a new player might instantly gravitate towards.

I guess if I was only planning to play this game once through and I wanted what I felt were the best 8-10 perks and to be able to get those from the start without great expense and pretty quickly then I might be convinced your model was actually a "fix" for a bad system. But I'm waaaaaaaaay past one playthrough and part of the reason for that is the current design.

But the current design is changing in a pretty significant way for A21 in any case so the current normal is already legacy...

 

[BFT2020]

I ain't playing on Scavenger difficulty, but okay. What about the rest of the perks then?

Neither am I, I play on Survivalist unless I play a mod that ups the difficulty in other ways then I drop down to Warrior.

 

[Boidster]

TIL that RPGs don't have classes.

 

[meganoth]

As in the title, attributes should be straight up removed and perk cost should be adjusted to somewhat compensate for it.

I think it would make the perk system better by not forcing you to waste points on arbitrary perk unlocking where only one or two perks interest you. The Steam store page says that this game is supposed to be an RPG while it currently feels more like a class-based shooter.
What if I want to use stealth+crossbow 90% of the time but also shotguns for emergency/blood moons, maybe throw in Daring Adventurer and Lucky Looter into the mix, you know, I want to play a role. Maxing those skills alone costs me 111 points (unless I made a mistake while calculating), that's insane. I can't even afford to give a crap about things like cooking, hunting, farming, general survivability, stamina, resource gathering, etc. I'm SOL. 

I've specifically came back to this game because I've heard it got more RPG-like while in reality it's now less RPG.

It is now less RPG because you just can't have any combinations of perks you want at the same cost ?

Suddenly the developers of AD&D will turn pink with shame because you showed them that the most popular pen&paper RPG wasn't really an RPG.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

But the current design is changing in a pretty significant way for A21 in any case so the current normal is already legacy...

What do you mean here? Are perks getting changed? Didn't hear anything about it.

 

[meganoth]

What do you mean here? Are perks getting changed? Didn't hear anything about it.

We heard recently that madmole is working on a big reveal! Pretty sure that that is it and we won't get much more out of our anonymous informer who calls himself R.

We also know that Madmole wanted to change how the weapon progression is working (i.e. how crafting of better weapons works). With that the perks might change as well. Just a wild guess.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

We heard recently that madmole is working on a big reveal! Pretty sure that that is it and we won't get much more out of our anonymous informer who calls himself R.

We also know that Madmole wanted to change how the weapon progression is working (i.e. how crafting of better weapons works). With that the perks might change as well. Just a wild guess.

Lol I suppose this makes my post kinda redundant :v

 

[Roland]

Lol I suppose this makes my post kinda redundant :v

Not really because AFAIK we will continue to have the attribute categories for perks after the change. If they bug you now they will probably still bug you in the next iteration.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

Not really because AFAIK we will continue to have the attribute categories for perks after the change. If they bug you now they will probably still bug you in the next iteration.

Well okay then.

You're assuming there would be a difference. The costs are designed to prevent us from rushing the 5 or 6 most OP perks in the entire list. If they did away with attributes those tantalizing 5-7 perks you want most that are spread across the attributes would still have exorbitant costs assigned in order to get them all because the developers recognize which perks are going to be the most popular and which perks would be the go to instant choices of pretty much everyone every time they played the game. So price adjustments would still be designed to spread those out and not allow players to gobble those up with their first 50-100 points.

You're acting like rushing Daring Adventurer/Better Barter/Sexual Tyrannosaurus/Advanced Engineering/Grease Monkey isn't already the most optimal way to play. If the devs removed attributes and then made these clearly stupidly powerful perks very expensive, I'd actually be glad because at the moment pretty much everyone runs around with a build that includes like half of these perks.
 

I see those as more interesting choices that we have to make and the devs are not going to rid the game of opportunity cost so that we can just easily ignore all of the perks we don't care about.

I was talking about the devs balancing the perks, not players balancing their builds. And it's not like even that would to go away if the perk costs were to be readjusted...
 

No you are not strong-armed. You could get that mix of perks for the ultimate hoarder experience but it would be very costly to do so....and so what? That would be your different experience for one playthrough. It would mean going without other benefits you were used to having in your game so you could develop that type of character and it would be a longer game to achieve that.

Oh, but I am strong-armed. Either I play the way devs intended, pick my class, make a generic [adjective] [weapon of choice] guy and coast through the game on relative easy mode, or I make my own "class" and get my teeth kicked in because my points are too spread out. And yes, you CAN learn to play with that handicap but why should people be penalized for trying to do something fun?

Or you could do whatever you wanted until you were ready and then buy the forgettin elixir and switch instantly to that ultimate hoarder experience.

Now this is just kinda dumb, by that logic every build is viable since you can just spec into STR, grind to 150, drink some radioactive vodka and there you have it, your dream build is done.

 

[Roland]

You're acting like rushing…

My opinion is that players who rush at all deserve the dissatisfaction they create for themselves. I couldn’t care less what the most optimal way to play is under any balance philosophy—the current one or your version of things. I don’t play the game like a spreadsheet. So yes, there currently is a way to rush and if you got everything you wished there still would be a way and Rushers would remain dissatisfied because of their approach to playing games like this. 
 

I was talking about the devs balancing the perks,

I know but I don’t agree with your premise that they need to be balanced or fixed all that much in the first place. I like them asymmetrical because I like to play the game with different builds that feel different. I don’t feel compelled to choose the optimal path every time. It’s okay to be shut out of some options by choosing other options. 
 

Oh, but I am strong-armed. Either I play the way devs intended, pick my class, make a generic [adjective] [weapon of choice] guy and coast through the game on relative easy mode, or I make my own "class" and get my teeth kicked in because my points are too spread out. And yes, you CAN learn to play with that handicap but why should people be penalized for trying to do something fun?

Because that is fun for anyone who allows themselves to make suboptimal choices for the sake of building a less than perfect character and try to survive as that type of character. We don’t call it being penalized— we call it having options for characters that are truly different rather than cookie cutter versions of each other from the perspective of optimized power progression. 
 

Absolutely some mixes are going to be harder to play than others so if you have to turn down the difficulty to succeed then you try that if the mix you want is kicking your butt at the difficulty you selected. 
 

So why not make all builds easily viable at any difficulty setting?  Because somewhere there is someone who CAN succeed with their points spread out at the highest difficulty and they appreciate the challenge. 
 

Now this is just kinda dumb, by that logic every build is viable since you can just spec into STR, grind to 150, drink some radioactive vodka and there you have it, your dream build is done.

Not dumb…just another option for those who want to use it. I don’t use it because I’m happy to explore the various different characters I create and enjoy the various challenges that emerge by being strong and weak in various different builds. TFP has provided a multitude of ways to play and enjoy the game and the only requirement to try them all is to give up the optimal path.

I get lots of people dislike the organization and costs associated with the perks but lots of people like them too. I freely admit they could fine tune things and tweak the balance on them but I disagree we need to throw out the attributes. 
 

What we probably could use is a pre-game option menu where the player could swap perks to different slots and reorganize which perks fall under which category so that if someone just was no longer having fun with the current organization they could mix things up. 

 

[Laz Man]

Many RPG games have multiple skill trees you have to work through to get to higher tier skills/perks so I don't see the issue here.  These types of systems encourages playing the game more then once in order to experience the game in different ways.

OP, perhaps if you provide us with some sample games that have a similar skill system you have in mind people can have a better understanding what your hoping for.