PC Anyone else hate vultures?

[Guest]

I'd be okay with them if they weren't so janky. Always remind me I'm playing a videogame in alpha when I see them flying like they're on the end of an invisible jojo.

I agree that they're more of an annoyance than something to be reckoned with. But before TFP buff them to one-shot vehicles, I'd like to suggest that vehicle health reaching 0 should just make it unusable until you find a replacement engine/battery/wheels/etc. Or at least give us some interesting mitigation strategies that don't involve looking at the sky while driving and stopping every couple of seconds to shoot at drunk birds.

 

[Roland]

“Not difficult....just annoying”

That is the same exact thing people say about loot timers, craft timers, POI sleepers, bloodmoon hordes, screamer hordes, hunger and thirst, inventory management, broken legs, infection, primitive stage, stamina management, etc.  

If TFP listened to every annoyed player we would have a game with instant crafting and looting, empty buildings, no hordes, no status debuffs of any kind, infinite storage space, guns and ammo everywhere, and infinite stamina because none of that contributes to difficulty in the slightest. It all just makes the game annoying. 
 

Everyone has fun in a different way and what is “annoying”  is impossible to develop to because it is a moving target. 
 

If this truly isn’t a matter of difficulty and really is just a matter of annoyance then “mod it” really is the answer here.
 

So thanks for clarifying for us what type of an issue this is. Personally annoying? Mod it. 

 

[Roland]

That's what happened to mine.  I immediately exited, turned on cheats, and spawned a replacement back in.

They DO explode when vehicle health hits 0%; and any time you're under 20% that can be ONE vulture.

See, this right here is what I believe is the core truth of the issue of vultures. It isn’t about how annoying they are or how difficult they are. It is about the threat they represent. Threat level is something that can be designed into the game in a measurable way.
 

Tom will be annoyed and Jerry will find it too difficult but that is their own personal experiences and the devs can’t mind read especially when Sue finds it fun and Debbie finds it too easy with the same implementation. 
 

But threat is measurable. If the devs want there to be a chance that a player’s vehicle will explode if they are dumb enough to take it out with less than 20% hp left then that is the threat and consequence designed into the game. 
 

No matter how you feel about vultures, they represent a threat as we travel around. They cannot just be ignored because of the threat they bring.  Without them in the game there would be no threat.
 

This would mean that a 4x4 at 100% and a 4x4 at 10% would be exactly the same. Perhaps that’s what you really want?

You know....on the totem pole of “turd sandwich eating” I would rank cheating yourself in a replacement vehicle for your own mistake lower than just modding the vultures to be more how you like it....

 

[FileMachete]

But threat is measurable. If the devs want there to be a chance that a player’s vehicle will explode if they are dumb enough to take it out with less than 20% hp left then that is the threat and consequence designed into the game. 

I get what you're saying Roland, and in general agree with you.

And take this with a few grains of sand as I'm not playing a19 yet.

Just reading this thread I can see a disconnect between what vultures can apparently do to a 3000 pound hunk of metal and what they do to a 110-200 pound squishy flesh person.

I've never tested it but I've taken quite a few hits from vultures in-game over the years, and other than really early on, sans armor, the only threat they really posed was getting infected, not the hp damage done. Just guessing but I'd be suprised if five hits from a vulture can take down a player past day 15 or so?

Not saying there aren't some mental gymnastics we could do to rationalize a vulture managing to blow up jeeps; we're packing pressure sensitive explosives and they hit it, or they pierced the gas tank and also managed to cause a spark to set it off, etc.

But those are a bit of reach. Now if what we saw was a spontaneously combusting divebombing featherd h3ll chicken blazing across the sky to impale our poor jeeps gas tank, well... that'd be funny at least :biggrin1:

 

[Biscoitoso]

TFP buffed the vultures and nerffed the vehicles. Now the motorcycle and 4x4 Truck move at 14/mps instead of 17 and 15 from the A-18. Cause that, you cant run from they, you need stop your vehicle and fight, if you just try run, they will bite your head continuously. Last time I tryed run from a vulture using my motorcycle I got my arm broken, bleed, infection, ebola, AIDS, coronavirus and one of my kidneys got stolen...

 

[Kalen]

“Not difficult....just annoying”

That is the same exact thing people say about loot timers, craft timers, POI sleepers, bloodmoon hordes, screamer hordes, hunger and thirst, inventory management, broken legs, infection, primitive stage, stamina management, etc.  

If TFP listened to every annoyed player we would have a game with instant crafting and looting, empty buildings, no hordes, no status debuffs of any kind, infinite storage space, guns and ammo everywhere, and infinite stamina because none of that contributes to difficulty in the slightest. It all just makes the game annoying. 
 

Everyone has fun in a different way and what is “annoying”  is impossible to develop to because it is a moving target. 
 

If this truly isn’t a matter of difficulty and really is just a matter of annoyance then “mod it” really is the answer here.
 

So thanks for clarifying for us what type of an issue this is. Personally annoying? Mod it. 

Except just about everything else on your list of annoying can be avoided or mitigated to some extent.... I suppose you can avoid vultures dive bombing your vehicles by not using a vehicle.  

Sure, it can be modded, but isn't the point of an early access game to let developers know what people find good and bad with the game?    I don't think anyone reasonably expects TFP to craft the game exactly how the players want (as you said, that would be impossible) but, I believe, the point of this forum is to give feedback so that TFP can make the game as great as they can.   It is most definitely not a matter of difficulty...   vultures take 1 or 2 whacks with a club and I don't even see them on horde nights thanks to turrets on the roof.... nor have I ever been remotely close to having them destroy a vehicle.  So yeah, having to dismount 3 or 4 times driving through a desert is annoying.   If it was just me that found it personally annoying then sure, I'd mod it and move on.

 

[Dracula]

See, this right here is what I believe is the core truth of the issue of vultures. It isn’t about how annoying they are or how difficult they are. It is about the threat they represent. Threat level is something that can be designed into the game in a measurable way.
 

Tom will be annoyed and Jerry will find it too difficult but that is there own personal experiences and the devs can’t mind read especially when Sue finds it fun and Debbie finds it too easy with the same implementation. 
 

But threat is measurable. If the devs want there to be a chance that a player’s vehicle will explode if they are dumb enough to take it out with less than 20% hp left then that is the threat and consequence designed into the game. 
 

No matter how you feel about vultures, they represent a threat as we travel around. They cannot just be ignored because of the threat they bring.  Without them in the game there would be no threat.
 

This would mean that a 4x4 at 100% and a 4x4 at 10% would be exactly the same. Perhaps that’s what you really want?

You have it 100% backwards; if they were difficult they wouldn't be a problem.  They're a problem because they are imbalanced.  They were an addition to gameplay in A18; now, they're a "feature" that's the equivalent of "and, at random, you'll get smacked in the nuts.  Don't like it?  Mod it out.  We want you to get kicked in the balls."

As for the 4x4, it was fine before.  A random mine could blow it up.  That was adequate; instead, if you're at 75% you can be driving around and chain-attacked by 4 vultures and blown up.

It would be less of an issue if they didn't stop the vehicle or couldn't catch up to it at speed, but you had to deal with them when you stopped.

 

[FileMachete]

Had another thought. What if the same sick @%$*#! who rigs up the demolishers is also putting landmines on the oversized chickens?

Dial down the normal pecking hit damage vultures do to vehicles but add a graphics bit and an x % chance that a demo-vulture spawns. Have some fun with it and have it act like a landmine; if you hit the mine strapped on the bird with a club, it goes boom. If you go to harvest one that you managed to headshot with a gun then your knife could set off the mine.

That would also solve the exploit Vedui showed with the roof bladetraps and sitting on a bicycle underneath to lure tons of vultures. The explosions would wrek the traps & roof.

Last time I tryed run from a vulture using my motorcycle I got my arm broken, bleed, infection, ebola, AIDS, coronavirus and one of my kidneys got stolen...

Funny! Had me lol'ing picturing a vulture flying off with your kidney in it's beak. :classic_biggrin:

 

[Roland]

Just reading this thread I can see a disconnect between what vultures can apparently do to a 3000 pound hunk of metal and what they do to a 110-200 pound squishy flesh person.

Very true but that is no different than the disconnect between what zombies can do to concrete and what they do to your flesh.  If that disconnect is the real problem none of these guys would still be playing the game because it has been a part of the design since the very beginning. 

 

[Roland]

Except just about everything else on your list of annoying can be avoided or mitigated to some extent.... I suppose you can avoid vultures dive bombing your vehicles by not using a vehicle.  

You can also avoid it by jumping out and killing the birds—which some people find fun and others find annoying just like every single feature of the game. 
 

But I agree that it would be nice for some additional options like allowing a passenger to shoot them or an auto turret vehicle  mod that can help keep them at bay. 
 

For that matter, once critical malfunctions are in they may rebalance things a bit so that the consequences of getting hit might not be auto slow down but a specific critical failure that will need to be repaired.  The current system might be placeholder until the new system is implemented. Will that be fun or annoying? YMMV....

 

[Kalen]

But I agree that it would be nice for some additional options like allowing a passenger to shoot them or an auto turret vehicle  mod that can help keep them at bay. 
 

That would be flippin' awesome.

 

[Roland]

I believe, the point of this forum is to give feedback so that TFP can make the game as great as they can.

And your feedback still stands. I simply added a different viewpoint. I didn’t delete your feedback and then ban you from posting. 
 

Another point of a forum is to field a range of opinions and not just one. Some around here seem like they would like to have the thread locked right after they express themselves so their opinion stands completely unchallenged. Write it in your journal if that’s what you want....

 

[Kalen]

And your feedback still stands. I simply added a different viewpoint. I didn’t delete your feedback and then ban you from posting. 
 

Another point of a forum is to field a range of opinions and not just one. Some around here seem like they would like to have the thread locked right after they express themselves so their opinion stands completely unchallenged. Write it in your journal if that’s what you want....

Totally agree.... wasn't trying to argue that point.  But you came across as very dismissive of my point, so I felt the need to rebut.  

"That is the same exact thing people say about loot timers, craft timers, POI sleepers, bloodmoon hordes, screamer hordes, hunger and thirst, inventory management, broken legs, infection, primitive stage, stamina management, etc.  "

Implying that I can't find one thing annoying without finding all of those things annoying which is not true.

 

[FileMachete]

Very true but that is no different than the disconnect between what zombies can do to concrete and what they do to your flesh.  If that disconnect is the real problem none of these guys would still be playing the game because it has been a part of the design since the very beginning. 

Fair point.

Still gonna hope that 7dtd attracts some crazy modder who'll make a mod for demolisher/landmine-wearing-vultures though. :biggrin1:

 

[Dracula]

Fair point.

Still gonna hope that 7dtd attracts some crazy modder who'll make a mod for demolisher/landmine-wearing-vultures though. :biggrin1:

If you find someone else who wants that, you better marry them.  There can't be two people that crazy on Earth.

 

[Roland]

Totally agree.... wasn't trying to argue that point.  But you came across as very dismissive of my point, so I felt the need to rebut.  

"That is the same exact thing people say about loot timers, craft timers, POI sleepers, bloodmoon hordes, screamer hordes, hunger and thirst, inventory management, broken legs, infection, primitive stage, stamina management, etc.  "

Implying that I can't find one thing annoying without finding all of those things annoying which is not true.

I wasn’t trying to imply that about YOU. I was implying that SOMEBODY is going to find anything annoying so “annoying” is less useful as feedback. 
 

I’m certain you don’t find everything in that list annoying but I’ve heard the “not challenging just annoying” argument from somebody for each of those over the years. 
 

Some find the new progression amazingly fun because they enjoy the early game and others find it annoying because they hate the early game. If an early game enthusiast says “I like the challenge of the early game” it is very likely that an early game hater is going to retort, “The early game isn’t challenging it’s just annoying!”

 

[meganoth]

About the myth of Vultures destroying 20% of a vehicle: I just now made a test because that value seemed highly unlikely. Especially since in the video from Vedui he got attacked by a swarm of vultures and his vehicle never was destroyed.

I made a level 28 character, gave him military armor and a shotgun and drove with a motorbike into the wasteland. After driving around for more than a minute I could get a vulture interested in me. I let it hit me about 10 times, then, when I started bleeding, stopped and shot it.

Result:

Damage to the vehicle (that has 6000 durability) 23 !

Damage to the player: Lots of criticals (abrasion, infection) that brought the HPs down to 35. It seemed most of the damage was not direct damage but brought on by multiple criticals.

Ok. So I thought that the motorbike may just be heavily armored. Therefore I spawned in a minibike, but that had the same armor/defense-value but only 3000 durability. Same test. When I got a vulture interested I drove with max speed on a street just to see how often it would hit me and the surprising thing was: Never. I actually was faster than that vulture, on a minibike.

So I really had to stop and wait for a vulture to find me again and hit me. Again I waited until the bleeding started before I went off the bike, shot the bird and applied a med kit.

Result:

Damage to the vehicle (3000 durability): ~40 !

Damage to the player: Even more criticals, I had 5 HP when I stopped the bleeding.

Finally I made sure that the update to 173 didn't change vultures, and no, neither their speed nor their damage was changed compared to 169.

----------------------------

Conclusion: The normal vulture you find in the wasteland is neither fast enough to stop or hit you on a street nor does it have a chance to destroy your vehicle. But the amount of criticals you get from one lonely vulture may be a bit too much. I say "may" because I have to first test what harm a normal zombie hitting you 10 times would do. If that is comparable, it probably isn't too much.

 

[katarynna]

About the myth of Vultures destroying 20% of a vehicle: I just now made a test because that value seemed highly unlikely. Especially since in the video from Vedui he got attacked by a swarm of vultures and his vehicle never was destroyed.

I made a level 28 character, gave him military armor and a shotgun and drove with a motorbike into the wasteland. After driving around for more than a minute I could get a vulture interested in me. I let it hit me about 10 times, then, when I started bleeding, stopped and shot it.

Result:

Damage to the vehicle (that has 6000 durability) 23 !

Damage to the player: Lots of criticals (abrasion, infection) that brought the HPs down to 35. It seemed most of the damage was not direct damage but brought on by multiple criticals.

Ok. So I thought that the motorbike may just be heavily armored. Therefore I spawned in a minibike, but that had the same armor/defense-value but only 3000 durability. Same test. When I got a vulture interested I drove with max speed on a street just to see how often it would hit me and the surprising thing was: Never. I actually was faster than that vulture, on a minibike.

So I really had to stop and wait for a vulture to find me again and hit me. Again I waited until the bleeding started before I went off the bike, shot the bird and applied a med kit.

Result:

Damage to the vehicle (3000 durability): ~40 !

Damage to the player: Even more criticals, I had 5 HP when I stopped the bleeding.

Finally I made sure that the update to 173 didn't change vultures, and no, neither their speed nor their damage was changed compared to 169.

----------------------------

Conclusion: The normal vulture you find in the wasteland is neither fast enough to stop or hit you on a street nor does it have a chance to destroy your vehicle. But the amount of criticals you get from one lonely vulture may be a bit too much. I say "may" because I have to first test what harm a normal zombie hitting you 10 times would do. If that is comparable, it probably isn't too much.

Great job!

The real question left to be answered is how many criticals you would get if you were actually paying attention to your surroundings and got off the vehicle when you either first spotted the vulture or upon it's first attack.

 

[FileMachete]

Really good info @meganoth , thanks for doing and sharing that.

Just putting on my devil's/new-player Advocate hat for a second here.

If vultures are basically doing no damage to vehicles during normal days/nights, but then not only come in unending swarms and can also five-shot a 4x4 on horde night (which in swarms might be in just a few seconds), quite possibly not only killing the player but also creating a situation where not only will the player possibly lose their backpack/belt, but also pretty much certain to lose anything they had in the vehicle..

That seems like serious overkill penalty wise, and as it doesn't appear there would be anyway for a non YT watching new player to have a clue (normal gameplay would lead them to think they could outrun vultures, & no worries about vehicle damage), and factoring in the whole encounter might happen so quickly they might not even know wth happened, well, that honestly doesn't seem like it was tested/thought-out-fully.

If vulture vs. vehicle damage started out quiet a bit lower (should take at least 60 seconds to destroy a Minibike imo), but then ramped up with gamestage, that I could envision a new player learning from experiance. This just seems like spawning a Demolisher in front of them that's going to grab on, trigger and then blow everything up.

 

[katarynna]

Really good info @meganoth , thanks for doing and sharing that.

Just putting on my devil's/new-player Advocate hat for a second here.

If vultures are basically doing no damage to vehicles during normal days/nights, but then not only come in unending swarms and can also five-shot a 4x4 on horde night (which in swarms might be in just a few seconds), quite possibly not only killing the player but also creating a situation where not only will the player possibly lose their backpack/belt, but also pretty much certain to lose anything they had in the vehicle..

That seems like serious overkill penalty wise, and as it doesn't appear there would be anyway for a non YT watching new player to have a clue (normal gameplay would lead them to think they could outrun vultures, & no worries about vehicle damage), and factoring in the whole encounter might happen so quickly they might not even know wth happened, well, that honestly doesn't seem like it was tested/thought-out-fully.

If vulture vs. vehicle damage started out quiet a bit lower (should take at least 60 seconds to destroy a Minibike imo), but then ramped up with gamestage, that I could envision a new player learning from experiance. This just seems like spawning a Demolisher in front of them that's going to grab on, trigger and then blow everything up.

Dracula is the one who said vultures do 20% damage to vehicles per hit, and he also said he doesn't use vehicles on horde night. So that five-shot theory was based on Dracula's claim that a single vulture hit during daytime while driving to a quest did 20% damage to his vehicle. 

Meganoth's test results indicate that they actually do about 1% per hit.