PC Another Screamer complaint, or "Why artificial difficulty is poor game design"

[theFlu]

Why do you have to do quests?

This might be lost in translation.. I'm not saying you Have to; I'm saying questing is what TFP likely expect you to do. And even if you do raid kitchens and farms, you're still not likely to hit the heat threshold, since you'll be moving from chunk to chunk and not really breaking loud things => even including that option, TFP wouldn't expect you to spawn in screamers.

I wonder if it makes a difference if you do those loud activities while crouched. The sound of the banging when mining or destroying shelves is quieter but I don't know if that translates to less heat or not. 

I tried it for a couple of the things, I didn't see a difference. But as I can't even remember what things they were, I can't really say anything beyond "not for everything" - I do expect it to be a "crouching doesn't matter", the world doesn't know what broke the iron and deciding which player's stealth would affect it  ... but I'm not claiming that.

 

[warmer]

There are two explanations for this. The first is that you are constantly on the move and therefore the screamers hardly have the opportunity to spawn. The second possibility is that the screamers don't dare to spawn in your game and prefer to come to us.

Ya know, playing solo, the ONLY time I stay at base for more than a minute or two is digging out below it at night. I never use an auger, and I don't keep a fire constantly burning. I think this is really all it takes. I seriously never see them. Stop placing torches and leaving a fire on and that likely will solve the entire problem people have. The nights are so bright now you don't need lighting unless you are underground.

 

[Javabean867]

I usually end up making a small screamer 'hoard base' at my home base for just these situations.  I get all my stuff burning and crafting, I'll hear the telltale noises of a screamer, head over to the screamer base, take them out, and go back to my crafting and cooking.  Early on you can handle the screamers with wood spikes before they even get a chance to scream, but i usually don't usually use those.

 

[Old Crow]

Statement of OP was BS.

"Screamers on day 1, the moment you start up a campfire".

So again: made up for "reasons" or a bug. Which the old fart just could have put in. But it was too good of a change to do "his thing" again. Maybe some professional help would work. But i highly doubt that.

I'm curious as to why you're so hostile to this, dude. Seriously, what's your problem? What makes you think this is being made up? Why are you so offended by the notion that some folks are having screamers spawn on Day 1? Are you trolling, or just being a @%$#?

I tried it for a couple of the things, I didn't see a difference. But as I can't even remember what things they were, I can't really say anything beyond "not for everything" - I do expect it to be a "crouching doesn't matter", the world doesn't know what broke the iron and deciding which player's stealth would affect it  ... but I'm not claiming that.

It's a little weird for sure. I've not had any screamers yet myself, crouched or standing up. They do however like to spawn in while workstations are going. There's a weird inconsistency to them. Even running a chainsaw to chop down trees at a tree farm I set up didn't summon any.

 

[Fenris]

After a bit of quick testing:
The campfire causes a 5 when you turn it on.

Clean up one shopping trolley 5.15
Scrap Iron piles, 3 each.
"Wood trash" piles, 1.2.
Windows, weak iron doors ~3 each.
Flimsy iron sheets (one-shot), ~3 each.
Breaking down a zed closet door 1.3 ..
One iron ore node 5.

So, show up at a house, start boiling water, clean up a couple trash items from the environment and you're at 25 easily.

If you leave a campfire running permanently, for RP or lighting reasons or w/e:
1 campfire + 1 torch, causes peaks above 20. Alone.

My third intentional crossing of 25 spawned a pair of screamers.
None of the three attempts were things I couldn't do on day 1. One small mining session, one with a couple campfires, one with a "clear a POI and start cleaning it". I was focusing on things that would cause heat, for sure, but not exactly anything out of the ordinary.

This seems to be the design as it was released, I don't really see the need for video evidence..?

How much heat for cutting down trees? Just wondering since I prefer to build my bases from scratch, there is a decent amount of tree cutting on day 1, depending on my luck with food and water.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

We had a few fresh starts in a group of 3-4 and never managed to get a screamer on day one. Day two yeah ofc they will come, because in coop you can easily get 3 forges going along with 2 campfires. 

In SP you just need to pay a bit of attention what you are doing. I don´t really see a problem here when they can spawn on day one. It´s a zombie apocalypse, being careful is the 101 of surviving it. 

 

[theFlu]

How much heat for cutting down trees?

I think None. I did test it, and I didn't mark anything down, so I'm almost sure it was none. At best "very small", but that wouldn't make any sense as a game mechanic..  

 

[RipClaw]

For anyone who doubted that you could get a screamer on day one. Check out the first few seconds of JaWoodle's latest video. A screamer has spawned and the only heat sources active at the moment are a forge and a campfire and maybe a torch somewhere.

 

[theFlu]

For anyone who doubted that you could get a screamer on day one.

But but, that's day2!

Yeah, he did clear up the joint, broke some iron things to make room for his stuff etc, so plenty of heat there. No doubt he could've gotten to that point a little sooner as well.

 

[RipClaw]

But but, that's day2!

Yeah, he did clear up the joint, broke some iron things to make room for his stuff etc, so plenty of heat there. No doubt he could've gotten to that point a little sooner as well.

It was the night from day 1 to day 2, so it still counts as day 1 on my opinion. He only has a stone axe. It can't break anything really quickly. The heat generated should be negligible and most likely worn off by the time the screamer spawned.

But it doesn't matter either way. The post was for those claiming that the OP just made up his story and you can't possibly get a screamer on day one. Well here is the video proof that it is possible.

 

[theFlu]

It was the night from day 1 to day 2, so it still counts as day 1 on my opinion.

I agree in a way, I was just pointing out the funny ..

It can't break anything really quickly.

Those bent metal sheets that are used to cover trash piles in vents and whatnot, those are 1-shot with the stone axe and still produce 3 heat each. There isn't a quicker way to destroy things outside of dynamite ...

I didn't test the metal toilet doors (2 in the POI), I'm assuming 3 for each for being metal. One full metal block he broke next to the campfire, one or two to get to the roof; couple  z-doors in the vents. That's at least about 15 heat for the damage done to the place; it'll decay, but he showed up late and did all of it rather quickly.

 

[GigglingZombie]

I have the solution. Get rid of screamers bring back wasps that make them pick you up and drop you someplace at random. When the pimpsters implement weather,  you wind up in a place that you're not prepared for yet can survive if you are lucky and do the right thing

not a good idea to remove screamers in my humble opinion. At the very least, screamers are a unique and fun component, well they are fun when they work properly, or at least when they are less able to summon hordes so easily now, and certainly can summon hordes by barely even whimpering. i have no idea if the way screamers currently work is bugged, but back to my point, they are a fantastic mechanic and (to me) the game would not be the same without them.            They just need to work correctly (like they used to)

 

[Old Crow]

not a good idea to remove screamers in my humble opinion. At the very least, screamers are a unique and fun component, well they are fun when they work properly, or at least when they are less able to summon hordes so easily now, and certainly can summon hordes by barely even whimpering. i have no idea if the way screamers currently work is bugged, but back to my point, they are a fantastic mechanic and (to me) the game would not be the same without them.            They just need to work correctly (like they used to)

This exactly. A mere whimper brings a few minor zombies, a full on scream brings a microhorde. And they like to appear with nearly no cooldown sometimes. It's ridiculous. It's not a challenge, it's annoying.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@RipClaw I mean that´s a bad example. He clearly wants the baton to suck because he hates it. He knew exactly that this was going to happen and if he wanted he could have avoided it, it´s not like he doesn´t know how to avoid that. Youtubers are often a bad example. They play in a way that is attractive for viewers and that´s not always the best way to play.

 

[RipClaw]

@RipClaw I mean that´s a bad example. He clearly wants the baton to suck because he hates it. He knew exactly that this was going to happen and if he wanted he could have avoided it, it´s not like he doesn´t know how to avoid that. Youtubers are often a bad example. They play in a way that is attractive for viewers and that´s not always the best way to play.

The point I wanted to get to is that it is very possible to get a screamer on day 1, unlike others who claim that everyone who says they got a screamer on day 1 is just making it up. They have claimed this with such certainty as if there was some mechanism in the code that would prevent screamers from spawning in the first few days but there is nothing.

This has nothing to do with whether JaWoodle likes the baton or not. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@RipClaw My point is that if you do it wrong you will get screamers. We need to adapt now instead of wanting the old system back. The video shows a guy forcing screamers. You could do that in the morning of day 2 before V1.0 also.

 

[RipClaw]

@RipClaw My point is that if you do it wrong you will get screamers. We need to adapt now instead of wanting the old system back. The video shows a guy forcing screamers. You could do that in the morning of day 2 before V1.0 also.

It used to be a lot harder because you had to get 100% heat, not just 25% heat, and I don't think JaWoodle was really trying to do that.

My main point was that, to put it in less diplomatic terms, some people on here are accusing others of lying to them because they haven't had the same experience. Have a look at this two posts:



This has nothing to do with whether I think the screamer mechanic is broken or not. I have so many workstations running anyway that I got screamers without end even before 1.0. So nothing new for me. I just don't want people to be labelled as liars just because some people haven't had the same experience.

 

[Roland]

I don't think people are lying but I also don't think they are being particularly careful in avoiding zombie attention. THAT is what heat simulates--the attention you draw to yourself by the actions you are doing.

Perhaps in the past people could do whatever they wanted without repercussions but now those days are over. Is it not a good thing to introduce consequences for indiscreet living in a zombie world? Shouldn't we have to take SOME thought about what we do if we don't want to attract zombies to us? I get that people got used to being able to bang around and light up several campfires and forges and line their bases with torches but now there are consequences for doing that. You want to keep that playstyle of going large and loud? You can but screamers are going to come and make you fight for it.

The fact that there are lots of people posting that they've never seen a screamer on Day one and lots of people saying they do shows that we are dealing with different early-game player behaviors more than anything else. People who are keeping their activity footprint to a minimum are staying under the radar and not getting screamers but people who are stampeding through the early game are getting noticed by screamers.

Unless there is a bug. In that case it should be reported. But I don't think it's a bug and I don't think anyone's lying. I think some people want to keep playing like they used to be able to play without any of the consequences as they had it before. I think a lot of players have tended to play all along as if their activities could get noticed and so were naturally conservative and so the screamer change hasn't been much of a change for them at all. 

 

[Roland]

One of the most asked-for features to be brought back is meat smell. The problem is that for about 7-8 years now we've gotten used to carrying meat and food around freely without consequences of any kind. If TFP were to bring that feature back, how many complaints would there be about "artificial difficulty" being a bad way to design a game? How many threads demanding "meat smell" to be given a toggle on the menu?

We remember meat smell with nostalgic fondness and wish it was back but there would be a lot of "but my playstyle!" posts in reaction to it. This is much the same. If they added meat smell back in you would have to account for it and take care when carrying meat because of the new consequences. Since they've added a more sensitive screamer trigger we have to take it into account and take care when being active in one chunk for too long because of the new consequences. 

There's also nothing wrong with running away. Running away rather than battling out guns blazing is a tactic more in the survival horror genre whereas battling every screamer wave that comes is definitely more in the looter shooter and arcade genre. Haven't we seen tons of feedback asking for a step away from looter shooter elements? If the screamers come early and your base is unprepared then lead them away and avoid the fight.

 

[Spuder]

I don't think people are lying but I also don't think they are being particularly careful in avoiding zombie attention. THAT is what heat simulates--the attention you draw to yourself by the actions you are doing.

Perhaps in the past people could do whatever they wanted without repercussions but now those days are over. Is it not a good thing to introduce consequences for indiscreet living in a zombie world? Shouldn't we have to take SOME thought about what we do if we don't want to attract zombies to us? I get that people got used to being able to bang around and light up several campfires and forges and line their bases with torches but now there are consequences for doing that. You want to keep that playstyle of going large and loud? You can but screamers are going to come and make you fight for it.

The fact that there are lots of people posting that they've never seen a screamer on Day one and lots of people saying they do shows that we are dealing with different early-game player behaviors more than anything else. People who are keeping their activity footprint to a minimum are staying under the radar and not getting screamers but people who are stampeding through the early game are getting noticed by screamers.

Unless there is a bug. In that case it should be reported. But I don't think it's a bug and I don't think anyone's lying. I think some people want to keep playing like they used to be able to play without any of the consequences as they had it before. I think a lot of players have tended to play all along as if their activities could get noticed and so were naturally conservative and so the screamer change hasn't been much of a change for them at all. 

So, I haven't read all the comments, so I'm not sure what has been said, but I thought I would leave my concerns/experience about screamers... 

First, I don't mind increased screamer spawns in a way. It seems like there were a few past updates that we barely saw screamers. It definitely adds another challenge and makes you think about what you are doing. 

The frustrating part is that I've had a screamer spawn on multiple occasions while doing a quest (no workstations going when this happens). This alone is not the problem. The issue is them screaming and spawning zombies without actually "seeing" me (the weird part is you don't actually hear the scream. You just hear the other sounds the screamer zombie makes, and then a million zombies spawn). There was one time doing a co-op quest where, after hearing the screamer, 30 seconds later, zombies came flooding into the POI, and we both died in a matter of seconds. We were in the middle of the POI, and it would have been impossible for it to see us. When we went to get our backpacks, there were 30 feral/radiated zombies outside just chilling (day 14ish in burnt Biome). Long story short, we both died 2 times before getting our backpacks. And this hasn't been a one-time thing. It's happened 3-4 times now.

So my main problem is the screaming, where there is no possible way they can see you... Maybe the way they spawn zombies changed, and I missed the patch notes, but I really just feel like the current state is a bad game design... It really feels unplayable at times, as you have no time to respond to the threat. Within 30 seconds you have 20 zombies running to your location...

I really hope they look at this in the next patch.