PC Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[Noctoras]

So what is it that you want? Ever since the blood moon mechanic was introduced it has been presented as a "Space Invaders" type of design where the enemy force gets progressively more and more difficult and the player will never "win" but simply survives as long as he can until he is eventually overwhelmed.

I just don't see the necessity of the game to necessarily end this way. The game has sure shifted into a run and gun type of game, unfortunately at the price of the sandbox and building aspect, which becomes a moot point, if I know my work is gonna be f*c*ed anyway sooner or later.

Build small, grind as much ammo as you can currently is the recipe for success. As you stated, building is not, if I know my base is going to be wasted anytime soon no matter what. Actually I think it would help the game right now if you could NOT shoot everything that moves and have to weigh carefully when to utilise a gun or when melee has to do the job. That's what survival is about to me, not to play quake on voxels.

A18 was a huge positive step, it's just the focus on looting and shooting and the doubtful viability of building and developing which might need some rework in my opinion.

 

[Ghostlight]

I'm not sure a demolisher-filled Bloodmoon will leave a big POI standing all night if you don't engage them (needs testing probably).

First Demolisher always comes at the end of the first wave. At GS 153 - which is where Demolisher can first appear though the chance is low - your horde is 216 zombies per player. My thought was that if you kill no zombies at all, no new ones can spawn, and thus the horde is limited to whatever you've got MaxAlive set at. Say 32. First 32 zombies spawn and no more since you don't kill any. Hence no Demolishers.

- - - Updated - - -

So what is it that you want? .

Demolisher explosion damage nerfed to hell.

 

[Ghostlight]

Doesn't the demolisher practically makes turrets obsolete end game because they shoot his comically sci-fi button of destruction that destroys the base you are trying to protect?

Yes. They will turn around. Also most Blade Trap usage will set them off as well, except blade traps hung from ceiling 3 blocks up that can only hit Demolisher heads (and no other zombies!). And I read elsewhere that this has been stealth changed so Demolishers are 1 half block shorter than they used to be so that trick no longer works. If you lower your traps they will set off the charge.

 

[Ghostlight]

There is probably nothing more uninspired than a tower from which one shoots at zombies and throws grenades. But that's exactly what works best against the demolishers. You shoot at him to trigger the explosion.

Correct. Basically you shoot them and/or throw explosives at them. You're aim sucks (or you just don't care and blaze away with your M60 max recoil) so they will just explode. The idea is that they are exploding somewhere you 100% do not care about. So basically the oldest school bases - the primitive towers with a simple kill box below to gather the horde - that we all built back when we were little noobs, are your best bet. I've heard MM builds such bases. :/

It's an OK approach ofc, but your bill for the horde night at high gamestage / difficulty is going to be MASSIVE in terms of the sheer number of rounds you will fire or grenades you will use up. And as an approach to the horde, it's not exact showing any "finesse" is it?

And yes my genius new base idea is kind of based on this principle, but considerably more elaborate.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Yes. They will turn around. Also most Blade Trap usage will set them off as well, except blade traps hung from ceiling 3 blocks up that can only hit Demolisher heads (and no other zombies!). And I read elsewhere that this has been stealth changed so Demolishers are 1 half block shorter than they used to be so that trick no longer works. If you lower your traps they will set off the charge.

What if they walk on half blocks or sheets to raise them back up that little bit? I'm sure someone has already tried that, I just don't know the results.

 

[meganoth]

First Demolisher always comes at the end of the first wave. At GS 153 - which is where Demolisher can first appear though the chance is low - your horde is 216 zombies per player. My thought was that if you kill no zombies at all, no new ones can spawn, and thus the horde is limited to whatever you've got MaxAlive set at. Say 32. First 32 zombies spawn and no more since you don't kill any. Hence no Demolishers.

Nice loophole. So you really can sit out bloodmoon at the cost of doing a lvl5 quest each week.

Yes. They will turn around. Also most Blade Trap usage will set them off as well, except blade traps hung from ceiling 3 blocks up that can only hit Demolisher heads (and no other zombies!). And I read elsewhere that this has been stealth changed so Demolishers are 1 half block shorter than they used to be so that trick no longer works. If you lower your traps they will set off the charge.

Which is a bit strange. I expected blade traps to the leg not setting them off. Anyway, it seems spike throwers shooting downwards are still working.

 

[Ghostlight]

Nice loophole. So you really can sit out bloodmoon at the cost of doing a lvl5 quest each week.


Which is a bit strange. I expected blade traps to the leg not setting them off. Anyway, it seems spike throwers shooting downwards are still working.

I tried leg height Blade traps and it set their explosive off as they fell to the ground (not dead yet, they would get up and then I'd hear the dreaded beep beep beep.).

 

[Orclover]

Demolisher explosion damage nerfed to hell.

Seconded. This is just stupid Roland. Ya'lls meetings must have a lot of beer involved to think this was a good idea.

 

[RipClaw]

If the demo did attack the plate or quarter block from the inner side, then the explanation is wrong. If he attacked the outer side this is still possible

EDIT: To clarify: The inner side of a block is the side where you can stand inside the volume of the whole block.

I have tested this with a number of blocks and alignments and made some interesting discoveries.

The poles always get 3000 damages, no matter which orientation. The centered poles takes only 500 damage per hit from the demolisher. Also the 1/4 blocks.

With the plates it depends on whether they are horizontal or vertical aligned. If you align the plates vertically, so you see the thin site of the plate, the demolisher does 3000 damage per hit. If you align them horizontally, like you would if you attach the plates to a wall, it only takes 500 damage per hit. Inner side, or outer side doesn't matter with the alignment. On the other side centered plates only take 500 damage per hit from the demolisher regardless of the orientation.

 

[Ghostlight]

Before A17 the most dominant base design I saw in videos and photos and in descriptions was a deep pit leading to a protected area surrounded by columns with gaps the zombies couldn't get through or attack through but the player could attack through and loot through. Over and over again as I looked at different bases this was by far the preferred design for those who liked to engage with the horde.

OK, so you've just told us that the above was THE MOST popular base design pre-A17 for engaging the horde.

And I've just told you that Demolishers make that design 100% non-viable.

Do the math?

Gee it's almost like the devs are determining the design that most people who want to engage the horde are using and enjoying, and deliberately adding something to the game that directly counters it?

"No fun allowed" were the first 3 words that sprang to my mind, but I'm a cynical old fart as you know.

 

[DeadGerry]

You are absolutely right that this approach presumes that killing the horde is the objective on blood moon. I would argue that it is absolutely is. ALWAYS. Why? Because avoiding the the horde - and just "surviving" - as you put it, is is no challenge whatsoever. To the point of being a no-brainer. Just pick one of the following:

a) Sit on top of a big POI, make it tricky for them to path up to you, and do not interact with horde till morning.

b) Get on your push bike and just cycle for 4 hours in a big circular road, and do not interact with the horde till morning.

c) Build a base that exploits the A17 AI with an infinite ramp or maze. Do not interact with the horde till morning.

I think you misunderstand me a little - I'm not saying the choice is 'kill the horde' or 'avoid it' - but there are multiple increments in between those positions. ie - contain them and kill them at a controlled rate; ie - separate the demolishes are kill them with top tier stuff, and try to shear off the weaker stuff and let weaker traps kill them; ie - move them through several stages of base without letting the demolishers hit your central home.

There are multiple ways of attempting it - but most vocal complaints I've heard indicate players are building ONE big expensive strong base where they keep all their stuff, and then try to kill the whole horde on its walls. This seems to lead to problems, but it might be argued they are playing alpha 18 as if it were still 16.

Most obvious new thing is don't crap where you eat - have a safe base where you keep your most valuable stuff; which only ever needs to be wandering horde and screamer proof. Then have a(or several) cheaper; smarter base(s) for fighting the horde. If the Demolishers pummel Steel as if it were concrete, and concrete as if it were cobblestone, then save your steel and concrete - Upgraded cobblestone and flagstone will be much cheaper to replace and repair, and if you already presume you're it's going to be exploded then stick to the cheap stuff; and let it blow up.

You don't need to kill every single zombie, vulture and dog; but that doesn't mean you need to not interact - just pick your moments. What you CAN'T do is stand in one protected spot and melee them all night or gun them all down as you'll either get a break in or run out of ammo.

Is he facing Demolishers yet? Here's the deal....until those b******s appear, just about any old base design can easily handle the blood moon hordes with little to no effort and no exploits. There's a rite of passage here (for those not willing to exploit/avoid and who want to legit FIGHT the horde). It begins when the Demolishers first appear and usually ends shortly thereafter in dejection when your beautiful fortress is in utter ruins.

As I said, I think Kage has a good CORE for abase, though I'd scale it down a little so there's less to defend; but he's planning on adding to it with another very promising design from a guy who's name escapes me; but who he gives a shout out to online - a downward tunnel into a passage with high and low blade traps on alternate switches (so you can turn off the lower or higher ones individually), with electric fences and a turret death zone at the end.

Neither is perfect, but in combination and moving between them, and utilizing stuff shooting straight DOWN or from behind, I reckon it's got legs worth testing.

To be clear, I get that the Demolishers are OP at the moment, and it sounds like they'll get a nerf before too long, and you have experience which contradicts my theories; but Im still enjoying the challenge it presents, and will continue to do so until I fail!

IT's been a grand old chat though; thanks to you and everyone else for the info!

 

[DeadGerry]

OK, so you've just told us that the above was THE MOST popular base design pre-A17 for engaging the horde.
And I've just told you that Demolishers make that design 100% non-viable.

Do the math?

Gee it's almost like the devs are determining the design that most people who want to engage the horde are using and enjoying, and deliberately adding something to the game that directly counters it?

"No fun allowed" were the first 3 words that sprang to my mind, but I'm a cynical old fart as you know.

What he's saying is this one design of base was so super effective that everyone built it and all bases looked the same. It was an exploit - the columns meant the player could melee attack zeds without being hit back. It threw ammo availability and use out of line, gun's became a vanity item and while it led to some spectacular architecture, it took away from the struggle to be ready and led to boredom, and devalued looting as mining made you invincible and rich, removing the need to scavenge.

It wasn't that it was the design most players wanted, it just proved glitchtastically effective and so players couldn;t help themselves from exploiting it. It meant you could be invincible from before day 7; and the horde was never able to be the threat it was meant to be.

 

[Ghostlight]

What he's saying is this one design of base was so super effective that everyone built it and all bases looked the same. It was an exploit - the columns meant the player could melee attack zeds without being hit back. It threw ammo availability and use out of line, gun's became a vanity item and while it led to some spectacular architecture, it took away from the struggle to be ready and led to boredom, and devalued looting as mining made you invincible and rich, removing the need to scavenge.

So....fix the glitch that allows players to attack through bars? That way you do not immediately invalidate every base design that involves a kill box with the horde collected into it and the players shooting in from outside.

Also, I could be wrong but I don't think players have been crapping where eat they since....oh....A15? A16?

 

[Roland]

So....fix the glitch that allows players to attack through bars? That way you do not immediately invalidate every base design that involves a kill box with the horde collected into it and the players shooting in from outside.
Also, I could be wrong but I don't think players have been crapping where eat they since....oh....A15? A16?

Immediate? First of all quote for us again the gamestage at which demolishers first appear. Unless you are purposely gaming the system to power level as quickly as possible there is zero immediacy to demolishers wrecking any base design. You should get many hours of demolisher-free hordes to have traps and passive defenses work just fine.

Once demolishers appear you’ll need to switch tactics but why would you want the same tactic to work 100% for the entire game? In fact, the tone of your earlier posts had a definite hint of excitement and pride about a secret idea you want to try. On behalf of TFP: You’re welcome for that opportunity.

In addition using the pillar gap tactic was declared no longer risk free in A17 long before demolishers were on the scene and it wasn’t done to make them unviable— it was done to take them down a notch from being OP. The only people who stopped having fun with them were those who can’t stand using anything that isn’t OP.

 

[Jugginator]

I swear some of you complain about the dumbest/nonrelevant things sometimes. Opinions are opinions, but are we still complaining base building is dead, just because the same old copy/paste bases don't work well anymore? Don't crap where you eat since A15/16? A16 you could have a wooden 8x8 and be fine through anything lol. I never build a base that isn't both my home and horde base

I've freestyle built 3 different designs since I've been playing A18 and all of em worked fine. The third one I haven't tested that much yet though, haven't had time. Just because you can't build the same base over and over and over doesn't mean building is dead.

Yes you can build gigantic, pretty bases too, but if you do it too early, expect it to fall. Do it when you're ready to defend it and it'll work.

Not every game needs to be Barbie Shopping Simulator easy mode to be fun.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I wish there was some mechanic in the game that made the demolishers come on BM if you mess up too much.

Almost like heat and screamers in some way.

Too much power generated over some amount of time?

Too much ore unearthed over some amount of time?

Too many containers in a chunk?

I dunno.

 

[RipClaw]

Immediate? First of all quote for us again the gamestage at which demolishers first appear. Unless you are purposely gaming the system to power level as quickly as possible there is zero immediacy to demolishers wrecking any base design. You should get many hours of demolisher-free hordes to have traps and passive defenses work just fine.

You forget that in the multiplayer game the gamestages of the individual players are added together and the group gamestage rises quickly. On a server with 5 players it is possible to have the first demolisher on day 14 even on default difficulty and if you level slowly. On day 21 you most certainly have multiple demolishers during the horde.

 

[Ghostlight]

Immediate? First of all quote for us again the gamestage at which demolishers first appear. Unless you are purposely gaming the system to power level as quickly as possible there is zero immediacy to demolishers wrecking any base design. You should get many hours of demolisher-free hordes to have traps and passive defenses work just fine.

So exactly which horde day do you expect Demolishers to appear. I'm curious. It's gamestage 153 for the record.

Once demolishers appear you’ll need to switch tactics but why would you want the same tactic to work 100% for the entire game?

No I guess I wouldn't. I am the type of player that scoffs at those who played A16 and declared it was easy to "win" with any old base when in fact they had simply not taken the A16 gamestage high enough (~day 200) to see the sheer power the A16 horde could weild!! Great days! So no I guess I don't want complacency either.

However most "fortress builder" players like us like to gradually add to the on-going fortress as the arms race with the horde escalates. You are suggesting a complete rethink before GS 153, which would mean everything you invested in the base up to then would be a waste of time and resource unless you were already taking Demos into account and thus had ruled out the "classic kill box" style you described. We've already had options taken off the table in terms of building, right from day #1.

In fact, the tone of your earlier posts had a definite hint of excitement and pride about a secret idea you want to try. On behalf of TFP: You’re welcome for that opportunity.

You know what? I am! However I have a sneaking fear it's either not going to work, or the repair bill per horde will just be too huge to be enjoyable. It will all depend on how many come at the same time on high GS.

I don't know how many players have actually had the pleasure of engaging the horde when there are a LOT of Demolishers in it but the devastation they can cause if even just one little mistake makes one of them explode and causes a chain reaction that verges on unwinnable. I predict as more players actually take the game far enough to face these guys, more players will quit the game specifically because of them. Remember a lot of players restart as each experimental dropped so who knows how many have had the pleasure of Demolishers yet?

Ironically, if their explosion was toned down to say 1000 instead of 5000, they might actually be quite fun to try to deal with. [Reducing block damage is no use since it makes all other zombie type impotent.] As it is, one Demolisher slip and your base is toast, so you feel reluctant to invest much in it in the first place.

In addition using the pillar gap tactic was declared no longer risk free in A17 long before demolishers were on the scene and it wasn’t done to make them unviable— it was done to take them down a notch from being OP. The only people who stopped having fun with them were those who can’t stand using anything that isn’t OP.

I like designing OP things. We had our design perfected to the point that the base would kill then entire horde on its own if we wanted it to, without us firing a single shot, with the total repair bill being typically no more than a few Blade Traps.

The main problem here is that many many base designs that are FUN, and also the use of traps (specifically Blade Traps) and also Turrets, are all greatly curtailed by the presence of Demolishers in their current state. That just means they are removing many of the more fun options from players who like to build big. Removing player choice is never good.

You forget that in the multiplayer game the gamestages of the individual players are added together and the group gamestage rises quickly. On a server with 5 players it is possible to have the first demolisher on day 14 even on default difficulty and if you level slowly. On day 21 you most certainly have multiple demolishers during the horde.

Bah. I wanted Roland to answer. But yeah, there you have the problem. You can easily get them extremely early. No base you can build by day 14 can engage Demolishers and survive them without exploits.

 

[-Holo-]

Am I in the minority here that's never looked at someone else's base and just build as strong as I could imagine?

But aren't the demolishers just a kneejerk reaction to the core problem of inflated player power and the game unable to support the number of zombies needed to counter that?

In earlier Alphas, brass and ammo was a relatively rare resource, and just pumping out several thousands rounds per bloodmoon night was simply unsustainable.

In A14 I built a base with so much steel and spikes that it resembled the D-Day landing beaches.

But the Zombies breached it by sheer numbers eventually, too many cops and military zombies to kill before more arrived. And I knew, next week would be tougher yet.

With some luck the last cops and soldiers killed would contain weapon parts to maybe, just maybe get everything needed to craft a .44, or maybe a sniper rifle part or ak47 part.

My current A18 game, (a bit modded, way more zombies doing more damage to entities, a real random map thanks to Nitrogen, and some tweaked loot and progression to remove all turrets from the game) It's in a better state, but guns are raining in. I think the first AK was found under a week. It's day 13 and we have tons of shotguns and pistols and ak's stockpiled. 1-3 quality.

I would want to turn the loot down to 10% but that would make the schematic situation ridiculous since they're in a rather good droprate at 100%.

There's guns and ammo -everywhere- to be gotten now so one can afford recklessly spraying zombies with bullets.

 

[RipClaw]

Am I in the minority here that's never looked at someone else's base and just build as strong as I could imagine?

You could do that in the previous alphas. There the AI was still very forgiving so you could be successful with a variety of designs.

Now it is more like a hit or miss. So it is helpful to see if others' designs have been successful or not and what you can learn from their mistakes.