PC Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

Not that anyone asked but just gonna add my opinion to this thread.

I'm not a big fan of A18. Part of it is Too Much Of A Good Thing syndrome. I loved when the dungeon POI were introduced and I was excited to see more with A18 but it quickly became apparent that almost all POIs are dungeons now and they're becoming a bit of a chore. I miss having some regular houses with some zeds hanging out in there.

The new skill system is great but again, too much. I realize they are trying to justify having so many skills is so many trees but a lot of it just feels like they did it so they could have skills to add rather than them being logical decisions, the way making guns works now comes to mind.

The resource thing is also an issue for me. I know it's random and all but it seems so out of whack now. I have a better chance of finding an auger in a random location than I do in a hardware store. Our group has yet to find a nail gun, auger, or chainsaw in a hardware store and we have 8, 4, and 3 respectively. Why would I ever search a hardware store when, if I'm lucky, I might find a stone ax in there?

But my biggest issue is that I realized I'm not playing against the zombies, I'm playing against the Fun Pimps. No matter what ways we find to stop the hordes, the Fun Pimps will nerf it somehow. If I woke up to A18.4 and flying teleporting zombies who could walk through steel walls and could only be hurt by every 12th bullet fired, I wouldn't really be shocked.

I still love the concept, I want to still love the game, but if it weren't for the group I'm playing with, I'd have quit A18 already and just waited to see what A19 holds. I can see why some love it, I'm just not one of them.

 
From your vantage point perhaps. But I have a better view than you.
It’s not so much that they keep moving the goal posts as much as you never understood where they are going. People thought A15 or A16 was their intended destinations but no. People thought A17 was their intended destination and were enraged by it because they liked the previous version better. People think A18 is the intended destination but it’s not.
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I agree with you here Roland, we have no clue what their endgame plan looks like. Lets just hope it turns out to our likings. They done a damn good job overall!

 
I agree with op. And thats why I personally still play A16. I can´t stand the new versions of 7dtd. I tried, but I can´t. I rather play with old graphics and only the minibike, but have a great amount of fun finding different biomes, cities full of skycrapers and houses that I can loot without having to deal with all that dungeon crap. I can build up my base and defend it properly. I can handle the hordes and don´t have to set my difficulty to non existens just to be able to play this game long enough to see my steel maze base gets rect by demos at the end.

Before A17 I couldn´t stand the wait to get a new update. Right now I am happy if there is none.

 
While A18 is a huge progress over A17, I have two big beefs

Base building has become pointless and

the game has become too much of a run and gun shooter by now.

Basically both go hand in hand with each other. More emphasis on base building and less emphasis on the shooter part would serve the game well in its current state.

Generally speaking, though, A18 is a good game as it is after the A17 disappointment. In terms of game balance between shooter and builder, merging A16 with A18 balance wide would do the trick ;)

 
While A18 is a huge progress over A17, I have two big beefs
Base building has become pointless and

the game has become too much of a run and gun shooter by now.

Basically both go hand in hand with each other. More emphasis on base building and less emphasis on the shooter part would serve the game well in its current state.

Generally speaking, though, A18 is a good game as it is after the A17 disappointment. In terms of game balance between shooter and builder, merging A16 with A18 balance wide would do the trick ;)
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Base building isn't pointless, it's just much harder to make something which can kill the later hordes without massive player involvement. In 16 it was far to easy to be invincible in week 1 or 2; the AI in 17 rendered the process painful. 18 has done it's primary job - make the horde dangerous again; and get rid of passive horde killing bases. They'll probably reel it back a BIT - but so far looks like people are coping and still building big effective bases; just not in week 1 or 2.

 
Base building isn't pointless, it's just much harder to make something which can kill the later hordes without massive player involvement. In 16 it was far to easy to be invincible in week 1 or 2; the AI in 17 rendered the process painful. 18 has done it's primary job - make the horde dangerous again; and get rid of passive horde killing bases. They'll probably reel it back a BIT - but so far looks like people are coping and still building big effective bases; just not in week 1 or 2.
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We are at day 128, game stage 216+ for most of us. A big horde night base is essentially impossible at this point. Too many demos doing too much damage. Oh we can build a big horde killing base. But getting it operational again before the next horde night would require more time and resources than any of us are willing to begin throwing at it. Smaller modified POI's are where its at now. Only requires 3 or 4 hours to get operational again after dozens of demo's have made love to it.

Don't know what to tell ya man except you are wrong, at least in the long term. Or are you at day 200+ game stage 300+ and have found a magic secret that you of course will never blab to the masses for fear of MadMole patching that one as well?

Eh whatever, we are just taking demo's out of the xml at this point. Or just moving to another game till A19.

 
Agreed, that was actually a novel idea.
(unless a dev intervenes now and tells us about some obscure game they copied the idea from) :smile-new:
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It's, I think, a hybrid of Skyrim where you could earn an overall "level" (and point to spend) but only if you met the pre-reques of the skill in question. It's not a direct 'copy' (I'm loathe to use that word for a number of reasons) but yes, as an avid player of Skyrim, A16 and its progressive releases reminded me very much of it.

...... And had the same balancing problems.

 
It's, I think, a hybrid of Skyrim where you could earn an overall "level" (and point to spend) but only if you met the pre-reques of the skill in question. It's not a direct 'copy' (I'm loathe to use that word for a number of reasons) but yes, as an avid player of Skyrim, A16 and its progressive releases reminded me very much of it.



...... And had the same balancing problems.
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...I just tried to imagine Skyrim with the current system of 7Days. xD

 
We are at day 128, game stage 216+ for most of us. A big horde night base is essentially impossible at this point. Too many demos doing too much damage. Oh we can build a big horde killing base. But getting it operational again before the next horde night would require more time and resources than any of us are willing to begin throwing at it. Smaller modified POI's are where its at now. Only requires 3 or 4 hours to get operational again after dozens of demo's have made love to it.
Don't know what to tell ya man except you are wrong, at least in the long term. Or are you at day 200+ game stage 300+ and have found a magic secret that you of course will never blab to the masses for fear of MadMole patching that one as well?

Eh whatever, we are just taking demo's out of the xml at this point. Or just moving to another game till A19.
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I look forward to finding out - I got lots of ideas; but might i suggest what you are saying is 'killing the horde is essentially impossible' - but that presumes the objective is to kill the horde; whereas 'surviving' is still; so far as I can tell - viable.

I've been watching Kage848, and reckon his current base, but scaled down is a good starting point. Adding the downward blade trap tunnel as an additional layer seems legit, and outlining that core with a few lower quality and easily replaced / repaired cobblestone/concrete bits which are abandoned and moved along as the night progresses seems like something which could stem the flow for a bit. Having Additional layers which are cheap, with a gradual withdrawal route build it which you draw the horde along and around with basic defences killing the weak stuff; seems like something I'd want to try out - with vehicles in running distance just in case!

Im not arguing your experience, and it could well be that the demos's will need a nerf and get one - but for the moment Im just keen to try out different things; and am googling medieval fortification, modern military fortification and techniques for steering the horde.

I'm still in the 'this is exciting' phase - I may join you later, though! Thanks for the advice though - I'm adding it to my thinking!

 
If you are referring to spam crafting, they fixed that in A16.4.
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Nope, though spam crafting was one iteration with a glaring problem. But, like Skyrim, you still had overall level gain fed by individual skill level gain that generated a point to spend on 'perks'. 16.4's use of perks wasn't the same as Skyrims and did use perk points to patch spam crafting holes and a few others, which Skyrim didn't. However, the system as a whole still reflected Skyrim and still had major balancing issues, IMO. But that horse has been beaten to death, fed to the zombies, reborn 18 times, and beaten all over again.

 
But my biggest issue is that I realized I'm not playing against the zombies, I'm playing against the Fun Pimps. No matter what ways we find to stop the hordes, the Fun Pimps will nerf it somehow.
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I submit that this is only true if you regularly use whatever exploits are available. If you like exploits then you will always be battling the devs as they close them.

 
Base building isn't pointless
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I guess this is subjective. If all I have from a base is a renewed 7-day-repair-grind-cycle, it defeats the point of a base for me. A base should give me an advantage and, with a good design, should offer some safety. We are not talking about impenetrable bases, but if I have to rebuild half the base from scratch every 7 days no matter how good, it's hardly fun. And it restricts me to smaller bases, because only these can be kept up reasonably well. A builder game should offer more viable solution than a "small cube" design. If I HAVE to stick to a small design, it defeats the sandbox aspect of it.

Maybe you can build larger bases and keep them, but if that's what 2% of the playerbase can achieve, it's a fail in my book. You should not judge from the forums, because mostly the expert players post here, so average joe will have more trouble.

This is my personal opinion.

 
I submit that this is only true if you regularly use whatever exploits are available. If you like exploits then you will always be battling the devs as they close them.
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Which exploits were Demolishers added to close down? Building large, fun bases?

 
I submit that this is only true if you regularly use whatever exploits are available. If you like exploits then you will always be battling the devs as they close them.
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The problem is that the developers can always claim that something was not intended. We players can't know if that's true or not.

For example, the zombies can't run up steep slopes. Are this limits intended or is it an exploit if you use this knowledge for your defense ?

 
I look forward to finding out - I got lots of ideas; but might i suggest what you are saying is 'killing the horde is essentially impossible' - but that presumes the objective is to kill the horde; whereas 'surviving' is still; so far as I can tell - viable.
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I think he is saying "killing the horde would leave us a repair bill that we are not prepared to pay". I completely understand where he is coming from. I've seen what Demolishers can do even to solid Steel fortress bases. I am probably more prepared than Orclover is to foot that repair bill, but I fully understand his complaint. I've had horde nights with tons of Demolishers and I have tried to fight them "legit" (i.e no exploits). It isn't pretty once your gamestage is high, and especially in multi-player.

You are absolutely right that this approach presumes that killing the horde is the objective on blood moon. I would argue that it is absolutely is. ALWAYS. Why? Because avoiding the the horde - and just "surviving" - as you put it, is is no challenge whatsoever. To the point of being a no-brainer. Just pick one of the following:

a) Sit on top of a big POI, make it tricky for them to path up to you, and do not interact with horde till morning.

b) Get on your push bike and just cycle for 4 hours in a big circular road, and do not interact with the horde till morning.

c) Build a base that exploits the A17 AI with an infinite ramp or maze. Do not interact with the horde till morning.

See the connection between these options? Yup....do not interact with the horde till morning. If you are at a high gamestage and your horde will be 1000 zombies, and your Max Alive is set to 32, then you will have 32 zombies arrive. If you kill none of them, then no others can spawn. You will likely never see a Demolisher. Come morning just mop up the 32 who can no longer threaten you as they cannot run any more. Job done.

So why is this a bad thing? Because it is totally dull and challenge free? You might as well turn off the horde and save yourself the inconvenience of avoiding them. imo of course. If you disagree I would ask you simply this. Why bother with that minor inconvenience? You didn't face the challenge, you avoided it, which was extremely easy. Why bother? I genuinely don't get it.

I've been watching Kage848, and reckon his current base, but scaled down is a good starting point.
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Is he facing Demolishers yet? Here's the deal....until those b******s appear, just about any old base design can easily handle the blood moon hordes with little to no effort and no exploits. There's a rite of passage here (for those not willing to exploit/avoid and who want to legit FIGHT the horde). It begins when the Demolishers first appear and usually ends shortly thereafter in dejection when your beautiful fortress is in utter ruins.

 
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I guess this is subjective. If all I have from a base is a renewed 7-day-repair-grind-cycle, it defeats the point of a base for me. A base should give me an advantage and, with a good design, should offer some safety. We are not talking about impenetrable bases, but if I have to rebuild half the base from scratch every 7 days no matter how good, it's hardly fun. And it restricts me to smaller bases, because only these can be kept up reasonably well. A builder game should offer more viable solution than a "small cube" design. If I HAVE to stick to a small design, it defeats the sandbox aspect of it.
Maybe you can build larger bases and keep them, but if that's what 2% of the playerbase can achieve, it's a fail in my book. You should not judge from the forums, because mostly the expert players post here, so average joe will have more trouble.

This is my personal opinion.
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Many players have separate bases for horde night vs the rest of the time. Many players are happy with creating smaller bases that work well against the blood moon horde. For those who want to be creative and build huge structures, it is totally possible to do so as long as you don't also use them to fight the horde on blood moon nights. On default blood moon is only 1 day out of 7 and you can change that to make them less frequent. I disagree with your description of 98% of the player base being unable to build creative structures because they must also use those structures to defend against the blood moon horde.

Finally, I doubt that it is only 2% of the player base achieving larger bases that are viable against horde night. It might be 2% that discover a way to do it but such base designs go viral pretty quickly after each alpha that introduces adjustments that cause people to adapt.

Before A17 the most dominant base design I saw in videos and photos and in descriptions was a deep pit leading to a protected area surrounded by columns with gaps the zombies couldn't get through or attack through but the player could attack through and loot through. Over and over again as I looked at different bases this was by far the preferred design for those who liked to engage with the horde. The most popular design for those who did not want to engage with the horde was a stilt base design. There were so many stilt bases talked about and shown.

People like to talk about earlier alphas and about how creative and free we were to design anything. But what really happened was that 2% of the player base figured something out and the rest of us copied...

 
Is he facing Demolishers yet? Here's the deal....until those b*stards appear, just about any old base design can easily handle the blood moon hordes with little to no effort and no exploits. There's a rite of passge here (for those not willing to exploit who want to FIGHT the horde. It begins when the Demolishers first appear and usually ends shortly thereafter in dejection when your beautiful fortress is in utter ruins.
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He had the first demolisher last horde. It was just one, but it's done quite some damage.

Kage848 will have to rework the base. It's a melee base with poles and that will be a problem in the future. The zombies do six times the damage to pole blocks for unknown reasons. For example, the demolisher does 3000 damage per hit to poles. Normally he does 500 damages per hit to blocks.

 
The problem is that the developers can always claim that something was not intended. We players can't know if that's true or not.
For example, the zombies can't run up steep slopes. Are this limits intended or is it an exploit if you use this knowledge for your defense ?
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In most cases it is relatively clear. If you can't run up either AND they can hit the slope block then it is no exploit.

Even if only you can run up, it most likely isn't an exploit as well, because you can already jump on ladders 2 blocks up from the ground to get the same functionality.

If they can't hit and destroy the slope blocks because it is slanted away from them, THEN it is most definitely an exploit.

 
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Before A17 the most dominant base design I saw in videos and photos and in descriptions was a deep pit leading to a protected area surrounded by columns with gaps the zombies couldn't get through or attack through but the player could attack through and loot through. Over and over again as I looked at different bases this was by far the preferred design for those who liked to engage with the horde.
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Demolishers make that design 100% non-viable.

The most popular design for those who did not want to engage with the horde was a stilt base design. There were so many stilt bases talked about and shown.
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This is the complaint. Non-engagement with the horde is now the way to play. Pffft from me. It offers no challenge. what's the point?

As I have hinted, we have one more cunning base design to try that allows engagement with the horde and no exploits, and acceptable repair bills. And should - on paper - handle Demolishers. We shall see. After that, it is we quit or mod them out, end of story - will depend on whether my buddies keep playing because I don't really enjoy survival games played solo.

 
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