PC An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

  • It is a bad decision. I already know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It is a good decision. I already know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I reserve judgement until I play with it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • This is unimportant. TFP can go either way with this and I won't care.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Being skeptical is always a good sign of a critical mind. Being sceptical is always a bad sign of impending death. Be very careful my friend ;)
i appreciate the correction :p god dam one letter can make that much of a impact eh? well least its more worthwhile to mention then that snobby ponce on the other page. XD

 
It seems you have slightly misunderstood what I said. First of all, no, the words I used can't be "interpreted in a number of ways". Human language uses terms to describe everything in our environment - that is its main functionality, its value and it makes communication possible.
When a potential buyer browses steam and reads the "survival" tag on a game, a certain piece of information is communicated to him, which more or less is that the game is focused on the player's survival. When "zombie apocalypse" is mentioned to describe a game's theme, it means that the game's antagonists will be zombies, nothing more, nothing less.

How someone can imagine the zombie apocalypse details and characteristics may differ yes - they could be alien zombies with telepathic abilities and chicken wings if that's how you choose to imagine them to be, since the zombie term seems so fluid and someone may have made a movie about them in the past - but the fact is that the antagonists will be zombies and I think it is safe to say that this is the case with this game.

So, what I said had nothing to do with "how I imagined the zombie apocalypse survival to be" or certain lore details. And it's not that looting doesn't fit with the zombie theme or anything (which is not what I said), it's that if the players regard the game's main antagonist as a farm-able resource like they did up to now and especially in the past when they awarded quite a lot of exp, that would be a serious problem to say the least in a game that is tagged as survival. I am certain that the reasons are obvious as to why this is a problem.

Furthermore, since zombies are infinite and easily "farm-able", you can count on players never actively seeking anything that is included their loot table after mid-game.
Language is definitely up to interpretation, anyone who says otherwise either hasn't communicated with enough people or hasn't thought enough about linguistics. Almost every human interprets any given statement slightly differently thanks to their past experiences in life and with specific words. That's why we all have different senses of humor, and why different people react to different kinds of statements differently. Say the same phrase to every person and record how many people laughed, how many got upset, how many gave you a blank stare, etc. Language is a lot more malleable than you're letting on here in your post.

But linguistics aside, I interpreted your original post as saying that zombies being an infinite source of income pushes the game away from the survival genre, and "It goes against everything its zombie-apocalypse survival concept stands for, both thematically and in gameplay terms." which I think is a bogus claim. There is no irrefutable standard of zombie fiction or zombie survival video games that dictates that zombies can't be income sources, or that zombies can't carry valuables, etc. Which means that you are making assumptions (there's nothing wrong with that, we all make assumptions), based on what "zombie apocalypse" means to you. Which is why I made my post and the post after that.

And I'm not seeing how having loot would take away from the survival aspect. In Outlast you can find batteries and medical supplies around the world, does that mean it's not a survival game?

7 Days to Die has been touted as a lot of things. It's survival, it's crafting, it's building, it's an RPG, it's a tower defense. You're trying too hard to categorize it into what you personally determine makes a survival game. I'm posting because I disagree with that sentiment. If that's not what you meant by your original post then it's just a simple miscommunication.

 
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i appreciate the correction :p god dam one letter can make that much of a impact eh? well least its more worthwhile to mention then that snobby ponce on the other page. XD
Given your handle it would be particularly bad for you to be sceptic...lol.

You're a good sport. ;) Thanks for letting me use you to hopefully lighten the mood. repped.

 
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Zombie loot could be helpful, but never really made all that much sense. If there were some like the "Infected Survivor" from L4D2, it would maybe make more, but otherwise, they're zombies. Why would they be carrying stacks of wood, empty jars, stacks of paper... and where, anyway?
I kid you not, my very first zombie kill in this game was a cheerleader, and the loot was a doorknob and two bottles of oil. I don't think I even want to know why.... :nono:

Let zombie loot be an occasional rare drop, sure. Maybe some dukes from their pockets, a knife in a sheath, things like that. Things that make sense. Maybe tweak some of the POI and garbage loot up a bit to compensate, and let zombie loot be rare and something special- and more so for the dangerous ones. Ammo always made sense for cop and soldier ones.
If you think that doesn't make sense, this one will make your head spin: To make Oil you need a tin can. The icon for oil is a plastic bottle like you would buy in the store. When oil is in your hand or on the ground it is in a glass bottle. Because reasons

 
I mean basically nothing in this game makes sense. 99.9% of people wouldn't have the technical know-how to make anything beyond a wooden club. Smelting iron and glass and all of that? Bollocks. But it's fun as hell.

 
If you think that doesn't make sense, this one will make your head spin: To make Oil you need a tin can. The icon for oil is a plastic bottle like you would buy in the store. When oil is in your hand or on the ground it is in a glass bottle. Because reasons
Hehe, or take medkits. Bag of blood, some cloth and duct tape makes a medical-kit with the red cross and when you hold it you hold a cloth-cone which you drink... and apparently, a magic defibrillator shocks you.

 
Language is definitely up to interpretation, anyone who says otherwise either hasn't communicated with enough people or hasn't thought enough about linguistics. Almost every human interprets any given statement slightly differently thanks to their past experiences in life and with specific words. That's why we all have different senses of humor, and why different people react to different kinds of statements differently. Say the same phrase to every person and record how many people laughed, how many got upset, how many gave you a blank stare, etc. Language is a lot more malleable than you're letting on here in your post.
But linguistics aside, I interpreted your original post as saying that zombies being an infinite source of income pushes the game away from the survival genre, and "It goes against everything its zombie-apocalypse survival concept stands for, both thematically and in gameplay terms." which I think is a bogus claim. There is no irrefutable standard of zombie fiction or zombie survival video games that dictates that zombies can't be income sources, or that zombies can't carry valuables, etc. Which means that you are making assumptions (there's nothing wrong with that, we all make assumptions), based on what "zombie apocalypse" means to you. Which is why I made my post and the post after that.

And I'm not seeing how having loot would take away from the survival aspect. In Outlast you can find batteries and medical supplies around the world, does that mean it's not a survival game?

7 Days to Die has been touted as a lot of things. It's survival, it's crafting, it's building, it's an RPG, it's a tower defense. You're trying too hard to categorize it into what you personally determine makes a survival game. I'm posting because I disagree with that sentiment. If that's not what you meant by your original post then it's just a simple miscommunication.
Miscommunication indeed since what I said was:

Human language uses terms
which means that I am talking about terms, not language as a whole.

A term is, "a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject."
Language is a system that consists of the development, acquisition, maintenance and use of complex systems of communication
(wiki)
Of course language as a whole is malleable and constantly evolving and sometimes can be interpreted differently depending on culture, experiences etc. Terms not so much, since their very definition is that they have a precise meaning. Terms are one of the most primal language elements and without them we wouldn't be able to communicate. Imagine a world where terms were open to interpretation by each individual.

As for people reacting differently to different kinds of statements and receive the message in a different shade of color - that depends on a great many things like psychology, culture, education, intelligence etc, but the actual words, if literal, are still conveyed. If terms were open to interpretation communication would not be possible. Being painfully pedantic here, but conversations without accuracy aren't worth squat.

Again, who said that there is an irrefutable standard of zombie fiction? I already told you in the previous post, that if someone wants to imagine zombies having telepathic abilities, pink antennas or whatever, it is their irrefutable right to do so, since there is no irrefutable standard of zombie fiction as you say. But the whole "how we imagine zombie fiction to be" is completely beside the point - never brought it up, not sure why you made this assumption. The term "zombie apocalypse" at its minimum (in the video game context) implies that the game's antagonists are zombies. Nothing more than this was implied.

Doesn't matter if 7dtd has been touted as a lot of things, as long as one of these things it has been touted as is survival (not to mention it is the only genre-defining tag on steam). And "survival" in the video game context does have a clear term indicating a game in which, at the very least, the player has to survive - it is not what I personally determine it to be as you claim, otherwise steam tags would be completely useless and wouldn't convey any substantial information to a buyer.

So, after clarifying that to get to the point, the antagonists of a game (aka zombies in this context however they may be) that is considered to be survival or contain the survival tag, shouldn't be seen as farm-able crops/farm-able resources/zombie husbandry/chests of loot. Do you realize how all these characterizations contradict the word "antagonist"? And if the antagonist of a game is regarded as a loot (or exp) pile doesn't that also contradict the whole survival concept? That is the thematic reason which doesn't completely exclude zombies from having a small amount of thematic-friendly loot on them. The gameplay/practical reason though, because of which I believe that we are better off getting no actual loot from them, is that zombies are infinite, plentiful and easily farm-able en masses. Anything in their loot table will be common/abundant and one less reason for the player to explore and scavenge which hurts any survival elements the game contains. Pretty much this.

 
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Being skeptical is always a good sign of a critical mind. Being sceptical is always a bad sign of impending death. Be very careful my friend ;)
Only if you're American. Over here where we use British English they're both "sceptical".

Anyway, on the actual subject, for a while now I've been shouting (well, politely saying) that killing zombies should be a necessary evil where you expose yourself to danger in order to survive; rather than something you do for loot and experience.

So I'm very happy with #lootgate and I'm waiting for the xp rewared to be removed from them as well...

 
Only if you're American. Over here where we use British English they're both "sceptical".
I did not know that. How USA-centric of me.

Colin, if you're British or at least watch Dr. Who, I retract my tongue-in-cheek spelling correction. :)

Especially since I was wrong: the spelling I was thinking of was septic...Dammit Jim, I'm a Math Teacher
 
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I did not know that. How USA-centric of me.
Colin, if you're British or at least watch Dr. Who, I retract my tongue-in-cheek spelling correction. :)

Especially since I was wrong: the spelling I was thinking of was septic...Dammit Jim, I'm a Math Teacher
oh ♥♥♥♥..... huh... i mean lets be honest it does make sense. il give you americans credit on this one, thats a spelling change i am very much ok with. the rest of the ♥♥♥♥ you pull is just downright barbaric how you butcher our fine language. :p

besides, i wont grill ya for the spelling mistake. just so long as the reader understands im perfectly fine with it. never has to be perfect. XD

 
Only if you're American. Over here where we use British English they're both "sceptical".
Anyway, on the actual subject, for a while now I've been shouting (well, politely saying) that killing zombies should be a necessary evil where you expose yourself to danger in order to survive; rather than something you do for loot and experience.

So I'm very happy with #lootgate and I'm waiting for the xp rewared to be removed from them as well...
Oh yeah, exp is even worse. At least loot can be rare and thematic like the loot on that cheerleader that Brimstone found.

 
I'm needing to see how it turns out. it's been such a base mechanism i'm having trouble thinking through how it would turn out. Less loot from zombies means It needs to appear somewhere else, at least part of it. I always play with no loot respawn (SP mind) - so if the amount dropped 90% you'd be starved, especially in early game. However like said trash cans etc could have a bit more.

You could have an industrial 'waste dump' POI - etc to compensate a little for specialty stuff (Why would someone run around with 7 isolators in their pockets:P). Alternatively for non-generalised loot perhaps a 'former survivor' skin zombie - that would explain both the backpack and an increased amount of loot on that particular zombie.

It's a balance thing, and some thought needs to go to suspension of disbelieve, but how it works out in game mechanics is really hard to judge without playing.

B

 
Or those people are just their target demographic and they are nailing it perfectly.
He is kinda right tough. The regular forumusers are a minority. I mean there are like 10K people playing right now. How many regular forum posters are there again? a few hundred? not even that i guess.

 
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Understandable edit @Roland. But only understandable if you would delete the asslickers from his post also....

aaand damnit, wanted to edit, not doublepost.

 
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He is kinda right tough. The regular forumusers are a minority. I mean there are like 10K people playing right now. How many regular forum posters are there again? a few hundred? not even that i guess.
But how many of those 10k would agree with her? And how many would agree with us?

The answer, of course, is that there is no way of knowing.

So while she's kind of right in that we don't represent the majority (although I don't think anyone has ever claimed that we do), her unstated implication that she does represent the majority (and "common sense") and that said majority would disagree with us is completely unfounded.

 
He is kinda right tough. The regular forumusers are a minority. I mean there are like 10K people playing right now. How many regular forum posters are there again? a few hundred? not even that i guess.
It's not in dispute that the forum users and the feedback that they give represents a minority. What is in dispute is the demographics of the larger player base. People on here frequently want to claim that the larger player base identifies with their perspective. They may even cite their server with its massive amount of players as evidence. In the end, though, we can't really know. TFP would have to do more market research and surveys (and release that to us) in order to know.

That leaves the question of which demographic is TFP targeting: Hardcore gamers (a la Dark Souls), casual gamers (a la Sims), or something in between?

Edit: Bah, A Nice Cup of Tea! I got interrupted while composing my message.

 
Actually the majority in this poll are saying they will reserve judgement until they play with it and if the vast majority of all players don't use these forums and so won't even be aware of the change until their game updates then I guess this poll is a good representation.

I'm calling it now. The vast majority of the player base will have no judgement on this change until after they play with it.

 
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