PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

KatsPurr said:
they _could have_ chosen to show the hoarder female if they wanted to
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Maybe they did?

I have to admit, I can't spot any difference, what gender actually is inside that pile of clutter 😄 

...ok there's that little bit of fuzz on the upper lip...but that could be due to normal apocalypse hygiene? The face itself looks somewhat feminine to me.

---this is a great concept if you ask me, and I guess that's how I would look like anyways...except for that panama-class container ship that would stick out of my packpack to hold the rest of my cargo 🤣

gender.jpg

 
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meilodasreh said:
Maybe they did?

I have to admit, I can't spot any difference, what gender actually is inside that pile of clutter 😄 

...ok there's that little bit of fuzz on the upper lip...but that could be due to normal apocalypse hygiene? The face itself looks somewhat feminine to me.

---this is a great concept if you ask me, and I guess that's how I would look like anyways...except for that panama-class container ship that would stick out of my packpack to hold the rest of my cargo 🤣

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That's definitely a guy.  ;)

There are valid points regarding the chosen female player character that was presented.  However, they also showed a female bandit who looked very well done.  The fact that the bandit was dressed that way is a good indication that female player characters can also wear similar types of outfits.  Making a big deal about it without seeing the rest of the choices is really just a waste of time as you have no idea what there will be.  Also, considering that female character was clearly meant to be similar to Lara Croft in Tomb Raider, there isn't anything wrong with that look.  If it was not clearly inspired by a very well-liked movie and just seemed to be the artist's original design, then it would be more questionable.  But that isn't the case.  And it is unfortunate to have these kinds of complaints as I'm sure the artist who worked on that character/outfit was probably very happy with the result of their hard work and after seeing these comments is probably feeling bad about it.  That isn't a good thing because they did do an amazing job regardless whether or not you appreciate the outfit.

I do appreciate KatsPurr's post as it was written very well.  It wasn't an attack like the first post about this a few pages back, but was a well thought out commentary on what was shown.  Everyone should feel welcome to voice such feelings here without being responded to in a negative way.  I for one tire of seeing this same style of female character design in so many games and would prefer better options.  But you kind of have to accept that games are made predominantly by guys even today and so you're going to get this type of design more often than not.  There are some amazing female artists out there - I'd say far more than male artists.  It would be great to see more of them in game development, not to mention getting more into the coding and other aspects of game development.  Having a more equal balance would go a long way in getting games that are not just catered to only males or only females.  As it stands today, you get the cutesy games that are clearly not made for the male audience and games with "eye candy" for guys that are clearly intended more for the male audience.  There are some studios that give you a more balanced game that is not so directly focused toward either male or female, but it isn't as common.  As long as we see games that are designed mostly for guys, you're going to continue to see this kind of design and these kinds of comments and responses, even from the devs.  It isn't really worth being upset about as it's simply what is going to happen from studios that are mostly male.  You cannot change how men think, just as you can't change how women think.  Trying to do so is an effort in futility and should not be done. :)

 
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thx for the reminder.

And may I kindy add:

game or reality, if you have a discussion, there will be different opinions. 

People with other opinions are not automatically trolls, sexists, or otherwise bad people.

They just have a different point of view, which one may or may not agree. This is all ok. Just please don't take it on a personal level.

 
Roland said:
It wasn’t like that. They all showed one character they’ve worked on for A22. Most of them start with the male version and then do the female version. Like the pack rat—there is no female version yet. 
 

It just happens that the female version for the desert was finished in time to show and they were never planning to show everything they’ve done for A22 anyway. The female bandit they showed looked to be pretty detailed and not necessarily sexed up.
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The only thing players can base their perceptions and assumptions on, is what the devs choose to publicly reveal to us. It is those choices that I am critiquing. We players can't know about what goes on behind the scenes or how well intentioned they are. And for the record, I totally believe that none of the many things I listed were ever done with any malice towards female players. I'm sure most of those were merely thoughtlessness and being more focused on giving a cool experience to male players rather than realizing that those things might make female players feel unwelcome.

And on that note, I would just like to say that that any interactions I've had with devs have been nothing but gracious, friendly and welcoming. I have been treated very well and have no personal agenda against them. But I'm annoyed about the tone deafness on behalf of female players in general. (and yes, I realize there are many females out there who don't see what the fuss is all about), but I'm speaking for those who ARE bothered.

I often pondered whether I should make a video to explain all this stuff and send it privately to the team. But then this thread and the reaction to the art stream felt like the opportune moment to finally voice my thoughts. Even if it means that it will ruin any good relations I had already with the devs. Even if it means that I'm rejected from streamer weekend. Even if it means that I will lose any opportunity to ever apply to work for the company as an artist or POI designer. This is an important enough topic that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things.

 
bdubyah said:
People are complaining about that female outfit? Really? Do you ever go outside? I see females with less clothing on than that every time I'm out in public.
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that's what I was trying to point out. I live in Western Europe, and the shown female outfit is really considered as a regular hot day's outfit, not "sex object"ish at all if you ask me. 

But again, that's a discussion you can only lose as a man. You just get "branded" and that's it

 
bdubyah said:
People are complaining about that female outfit? Really? Do you ever go outside? I see females with less clothing on than that every time I'm out in public.
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There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  I think that as long as there are other choices, those same people will be fine with this being in the game.  I think it was more that they didn't show an alternative option and it leaves it up in the air whether or not there will be other choices.  Even though I think it's obvious that there will be other choices.

Of course, there would also have been less complaint if the character wasn't so large up top.  That's usually a trigger for complaints of this type.  :)

 
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Riamus said:
There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  
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ah ok if that shown outfit would be the only one you could chose as a female, I completely agree this would be total sexist BS.

 
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Riamus said:
There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  I think that as long as there are other choices, those same people will be fine with this being in the game.  I think it was more that they didn't show an alternative option and it leaves it up in the air whether or not there will be other choices.  Even though I think it's obvious that there will be other choices.
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Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"

 
bdubyah said:
I think it's just more people have to find a reason to complain about everything.

It's TFP's game so if they want to make outfits like that, they can. Don't like it, don't play it anymore. I can think of dozens of games with outfits that look almost identical. People just gotta complain.
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Although there are very often times when I would entirely agree with you - complaints about jars being removed without having any idea if it will be good or bad, for instance.  This is different.  Everyone has the right to how they feel about stuff and to express that feeling.  The first post about this topic was inflammatory, but subsequent posts from others were not and should not be dismissed.  Yes, TFP can make any game they want.  If they want to purposefully target men with no regard for women, that is their choice.  However, I do not believe that this is what they are trying to do.  I think they do respect their female players and want to have female players.  It isn't a bad thing for them to be made aware of criticism regarding how they interact with their female players.  It can only help them to do better... assuming they do want to bring in more female players, of course.

 
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KatsPurr said:
Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"
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It's not utter lack of consideration! It's just that...


Spoiler


:heh:

 
bdubyah said:
Better to who, exactly? The few people who cared to come cry about it? Come on now, this type of stuff has to stop. It is a game, people.
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If a dev studio is not trying to cater specifically to men and wants to include women, then knowing about issues related to that helps *them* do better in their efforts.  So it is better for the dev studio.  If they really don't care, then that is different, but I don't believe that is the case.

I doubt you'd like it for people to dismiss your feelings on a given subject just because "it's a game".  Pick any topic you have started about the game where you criticized something about the game.  I'm sure you'd feel you have the right to say what you said on the topic even if others disagree or don't care about it.  People have the right to voice their opinions.  There isn't anything wrong with that as long as it isn't done in a trolling or inflammatory way.  You don't have to agree with them, but there's no reason to try and shut them up.  I personally don't really care about how the female characters look.  I will sometimes play female characters in games, especially where I think there will be a different experience (usually certain RPGs), but a game like this isn't one of those.  I'll only ever play the male character, so it doesn't matter what the female character looks like.  But just because I don't really care doesn't mean it's bad that others do care.  I do feel it's overreacting a bit, but I also see the point.

 
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HB_H4wk said:
I was trying to help those that forget about our modding community that were complaining about no new zombies yet. Sorry I didn't realize they were from A15 but at least it's something. I think there are other Zombie mods out there so..
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... People play video games to immerse themselves in their player. To roleplay. 

Male characters tend to be buff and muscular, female characters tend to be thin and big breasted.

Is not new, and certainly not wrong.  These are physical ideals that most people have. 

I'm sure there may be one or two people in the universe who want to play as a genetic mutation created by inbreeding, but we are definitely not the norm and I am not opposed to a company catering to the masses.

 This entire woke conversation is stupid.

I'm glad the pimps are not catering to the 0.001% that seem to complain the most. 

Besides, if I recall correctly, the game is set after a nuclear war and then after a zombie apocalypse, so the people who would have survived would most likely be in great shape. 

 
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Guppycur said:
... People play video games to immerse themselves in their player. To roleplay. 

Male characters tend to be buff and muscular, female characters tend to be thin and big breasted.

Is not new, and certainly not wrong.  These are physical ideals that most people have. 

I'm sure there may be one or two people in the universe who want to play as a genetic mutation created by inbreeding, but we are definitely not the norm and I am not opposed to a company catering to the masses.

 This entire woke conversation is stupid.

I'm glad the pimps are not catering to the 0.001% that seem to complain the most. 
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Physical ideals vary from place to place.  Some places being heavier is the ideal and some places being a stick figure is ideal.  For most, it is somewhere in between.  Even talk of "ideal" is loaded and is really not accurate when used as it is subjective.  Everyone has their own opinion on what is ideal and that can vary greatly.  Just because games are made in a certain way doesn't mean they have to be.  I would prefer my character look closer to me than being "buff and muscular".  There is a reason people love character creation in games that give them full control over how their character looks rather than being limited to some "ideal" choices.  People do like creating monstrosities for characters and also like creating realistic characters who look a way that isn't "ideal" to others.

As far as woke... I am certainly opposed to that movement, but I don't consider this to be that.  Perhaps the original post on the topic, but not subsequent posts.  Asking for clothing on female characters is different from asking for females to be made all powerful and males to be weak and inferior.  Very different topic.

 
Riamus said:
Asking for clothing on female characters is different from asking for females to be made all powerful and males to be weak and inferior.
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And they've already said that is likely the only outfit like that, and that all the others more closely mirror the male versions. Yet people get so hung up on one. single. outfit. I'd be willing to bet these offended people will end up even using that outfit in game once it arrives. Lol.

Of course, A22 will likely be delayed now thanks to these 2-3 overly-sensitive people. 😂

 
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Riamus said:
As far as woke... I am certainly opposed to that movement, but I don't consider this to be that.
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I agree on this. She made her point clear and I can understand where she's coming from.

I hope she finds out that in A21 there's plenty of choice for women outfits, but I'm worried that the gender discussion could lead to much wider issues like we can see happening in some other games. I'm old school, so for me there's man and women, so I'd cover all human genotypes without a doubt. But then you'd have people coming here complaining that they're not represented, and the devs would need to cater to them too. So, where would this end? I hope it's not necessary and that, at least, the female players can find what they're looking for in this game.

 
.. The more I think about it, the more I realize how wrong I've been. I'm not happy about the new character models for A22. For a little bit, I believed I would be, but now this recent discussion has opened my eyes that the ripped male model threatens my body positivity. We need to remove body fat from the female's chest and add it to the male's mid-section and everything will be fixed!

 
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