PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[meganoth]

Some things we already know.

I think it was unholyjoe who posted a fragment from the loot.xml. There the probability for the filter was given as "veryLow".  The crucible schematic has this probability in A20, for example.

Roland wrote that he saw the filter after each restock day at trader Rekt. The other traders don't have it always in stock. The cost is currently 1500 coins.

If you play with the trader, you should be able to get the filter very quickly. If you play without a trader then it will be much more difficult to get a filter.

Yes, but how difficult? If you want as many filters as possible (unlike Roland in his test), how many filters and with it dew collectors will you have on day 40? Just tell me the number range that (lets say) 80% of players who do this will reach. Also, please tell me the amount of water you typically need for drinking, making food and various other recipes.

Note that "veryLow" is not really a fixed chance. It will get you different amounts of this item if you have a lot box with just one other possible item in it or 10 other possible items. Just one of the many things to take into your calculation.

Could you do this please? Maybe then we can prematurely calculate whether some players will have a problem. If not, there is still a lot of information missing to get a complete picture. We have enough knowledge to guess that there might be a possible problem, or not. That's about it.

Yes I have in A15 and A16. I used the space between the trees for my garden. For the dew collectors, I could build a multi-level garden with the dew collectors on the roof. However, there must be some space between the dew collectors so that light shines through to the next level. The dew collectors can not be stacked as far as I know, because the sky must be free of obstructions. I think it was unholyjoe who wrote that.

I was telling the OP about the possibility to place dew collectors anywhere, not just on top of a base. And I was suggesting that he probably already put similar production thingies on the ground instead of on top of a base when he was playing earlier alphas. And it worked then, so why shouldn't it work now?

Actually, even then you could create a roof garden. You just had to craft soil and place it on the roof. Many did this, for example, in the Dishong challenge to grow trees for wood and food.

I know. I explicitly said "...before you could place farms **easily**...". 

 

[Zombiepoptard]

Until legendary gear becomes a thing I don't think there is a chance. If legendary gear makes it into the game (something Joel really wants btw) then there is a chance that T6 could be returned to the crafting progression and the legendary tier becomes the one that is non-craftable.

Roland tell me how it makes sense for you to max out your crafting to not be able to craft a legendary? (rhetorical) Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary. You need to find a rare item and have your crafting maxed out. crafting needs to be apart of end game and there is no downsides to my system AND YOU KNOW IT BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOYYYYY!

 

[unholyjoe]

I think the community just wanted to hear from Joel and Rick to be honest. They've been distant and should re-affirm us on their plans for the game every once in awhile. 

now you want it to sound as if you are owed something. hmmmm

but i know you are just fun'n .... right... hehe

 

[bdubyah]

Roland tell me how it makes sense for you to max out your crafting to not be able to craft a legendary? (rhetorical) Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary. You need to find a rare item and have your crafting maxed out. crafting needs to be apart of end game and there is no downsides to my system AND YOU KNOW IT BBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOYYYYY!

I mean, I know you put rhetorical and all, but you are kidding, right? What sense would crafting legendary items make? Those should definitely be loot only.

 

[NukemDed]

more like he has broken them and eaten them as that is what i would do if my beard was that.... milk drinky

amirite @beerfly?

 

[Jost Amman]

That is a weird way to get a point across isn't it. Just saying we are nitpicking to win an argument. I am not trying to win any argument. I am just adding my opinion same as everyone else.

Yes, you're adding your opinion by replying to my opinion with (IMO, lol) partially unfitting counterarguments.

 

[Zombiepoptard]

I mean, I know you put rhetorical and all, but you are kidding, right? What sense would crafting legendary items make? Those should definitely be loot only.

No I'm not kidding and I explained how it would still be lootable as well. You did read  "Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary"   right? Just have the legendary be broken and need the max lvl to fix it. Easy basic problem solving skills!

1. Makes your hard work getting to max level worth it in the end game

2. Crafting doesn't take a back seat. 

3. AGAIN WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE 

now you want it to sound as if you are owed something. hmmmm

but i know you are just fun'n .... right... hehe

Explain your grievance unholyjoe.

 

[bdubyah]

No I'm not kidding and I explained how it would still be lootable as well. You did read  "Just make a rare item needed to craft the legendary"   right? Just have the legendary be broken and need the max lvl to fix it. Easy basic problem solving skills!

1. Makes your hard work getting to max level worth it in the end game

2. Crafting doesn't take a back seat. 

3. AGAIN WHAT'S THE DOWNSIDE 

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

 

[RipClaw]

Could you do this please? Maybe then we can prematurely calculate whether some players will have a problem. If not, there is still a lot of information missing to get a complete picture. We have enough knowledge to guess that there might be a possible problem, or not. That's about it.

I agree that we need more information but without the information you can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster".

But if you point out a possible problem in advance, the developers can check before the release by, for example, instructing the test players not to buy filters from the trader or do quests and then give them feedback.

I was telling the OP about the possibility to place dew collectors anywhere, not just on top of a base. And I was suggesting that he probably already put similar production thingies on the ground instead of on top of a base when he was playing earlier alphas. And it worked then, so why shouldn't it work now?

Well there is a small difference. If a zombie knocks down a tree in a tree farm, not much is lost. There is no shortage of trees. On the other hand, if a zombie destroys a dew collector, you need another filter to replace it.

Therefore, you will want to protect your dew collectors. Either by enclosing the dew collectors with a wall or by placing them on a roof.

I know. I explicitly said "...before you could place farms **easily**...". 

Crafting soil was no more difficult than crafting the farm plot. There is actually no difference.

 

[Callum123456789]

From the dev interview with Rick and Joel going over questions GNS I'm interested to see what the unannounced QOL features are since it would be like a cherry on the top for a good alpha as well aswell as that 3 independent games being worked on? Sounds like they've got their hands full.

and another thing I'd like to touch on with the overall sentiment with alpha 21 is people saying this alpha will be bad or they are working to remove the fun out of this game this is entirely incorrect they are trying to polish the game and fix exploits that remove all the danger and risk factors of the game it's best we withhold judgement to an alpha rather than stabbing at thin air and attempting to formulate an opinion.

I myself was a little sceptical about the water system but I was like why should I think in my mind oh its going to be bad due to other people thinking its bad I'm waiting untill the alpha drops to experience this myself and if I like it fine if I don't like it well its gonna be tough s$#t ill get used to it eventually but the water change isn't happening for no reason either its here to add challenge to the game because crafting 125 jars in a forge isn't difficult however you'll have to work your way up to getting a sustainable source of water that isn't a simple and easy process.

And for the crafting changes people do complain saying why are they completely overhauling systems almost 10 years into development it isn't a complete overhaul it is something that has been carefully worked on ever since the skill trees inception back in alpha 13 Learn by doing was a place holder the current system in alpha 21s skill systems sounds to be a more refined alpha 20 skill tree most likely being a finalised system and the new system will make sure you can't just skip to quality level 5 items on day 2 if you perk into something heavily because if you do that you skip progression and find yourself not appreciating any small gear upgrades like oh hey I have a lvl 2 club I found some club books now I can craft a lvl 3 wooden club it isn't a huge upgrade but I'm happy with slowly getting more powerful rather than oh hey I can craft lvl 5 clubs by day 2 I found a lvl 3 in a sports bag boo hoo to my perception this system is here to make you have small but more and more significant upgrade points in your time playing the world you won't beat the game by day 20 you'll work your way up to that level the devs feel right.

That's the end of my take on a few of the changes coming to alpha 21 I hope that if some of you guys who were sceptical of those 2 main changes have been put to rest from me describing why this is necessary and always thanks fun pimps for such a unique and thrilling experience of a game  

-Callum

 

[zztong]

In game terms I'm sure it makes sense, but I get a chuckle out of the notion there might be a "legendary shovel." Hear now, let me tell you about ol' Sodbuster. 

 

[Gamida]

Yes, you're adding your opinion by replying to my opinion with (IMO, lol) partially unfitting counterarguments.

I've seen this argument made again and again but the reality is that the developers are never going to listen to feedback based upon a partial description of what a new feature in A21 is going to be. It is possible that they will later say "Too late, it's already in and we're not going to change it" but it is also possible that they will take negative feedback and use that to rebalance the feature to make it more fun for everyone. What is definitely not possible is them taking the suggestions of people to adjust or revert it now who've never played with it. They just don't see all these hypothetical fixes to hypothetical problems as being worthy of their time. They want actual data.

So while it may be true that they might reject any feedback after the fact because its already done and in, that is really the only window of opportunity that exists. Until that time they debate and consider issues internally on the team. I can say that every concern that people bring up are concerns that have been considered and discussed by the team. So far, nobody has brought up anything that the team never considered. That doesn't mean, though, that the level of importance that they place (on the dew collector footprint for example) will always match the the level of importance that some of the players place on such things and so there will sure to be opportunities for feedback and revisiting certain things. 

In the end, the final decision rests with the developers. They re-iterated that design philosophy tonight in their interview-- that they appreciate player feedback on balance and fun-factor on implemented features players have actually experienced whereas they retain design decisions for what goes into the game, what gets cut from the game, and what gets changed in the game for themselves. So, if you really think about it, they aren't even asking for our input on things that haven't been released yet which means the community has zero chance of speaking up now to get things cancelled or reverted before its too late. It's already too late once the development team decides a change is going to happen. There won't ever be a community poll for whether something new is going to be added, cut, or changed before the fact. That same philosophy will surely continue into their next projects as well.

One last thing then I will be out of your hair on this subject.

 

[meganoth]

I agree that we need more information but without the information you can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster".

Which I haven't (to my knowledge). I said to the OP that his change suggestions were premature. And they are even in your estimation if you agree that we can neither say "it will be fine" nor "it will be a disaster" . Would you agree?

But if you point out a possible problem in advance, the developers can check before the release by, for example, instructing the test players not to buy filters from the trader or do quests and then give them feedback.

See Rolands reply about that. And I was not talking about the feedback that there might be problems. The OP was already in the process of fixing them while he didn't even know how big the potential problem is.

Well there is a small difference. If a zombie knocks down a tree in a tree farm, not much is lost. There is no shortage of trees. On the other hand, if a zombie destroys a dew collector, you need another filter to replace it.

Good point. But I see that as a positive: I liked how we had to protect our farms in A15 because a zombies wandering over a plant could destroy it. Wouldn't be bad if something like that comes back to make farming more interesting, more involved.

Therefore, you will want to protect your dew collectors. Either by enclosing the dew collectors with a wall or by placing them on a roof.

Crafting soil was no more difficult than crafting the farm plot. There is actually no difference.

The difficulty is the knowledge. It was something veterans would do (and players who watched veterans on youtube)

 

[Uncle Al]

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

'Rare item required to craft top tier/legendary' has occured to me too. It's worked quite well in other games. Roguestones/White Diamonds and what have you.  Having loot only rare craft ingredients is not the same as having top quality gear be completely uncraftable. The differences between looting the weapon and the crafting item are:

• You only get the full benefit of the 'rare crafting item' IF you've also invested in crafting skill. On the flip side, you get some choice as to how it's used rather than a weapon/armour drop where the item may be completely useless to you.
  
• Your investment in crafting skill isn't suddenly invalidated by a drop. Spending your game obsessively chasing specific crafting magazines only to have a Q6 drop make all that effort totally redundant feels bad, even though you've mechanically improved. Getting a Q6/legendary drop should not feel bad.
  
• You can promote hard choices: Imagine a rare optional crafting ingredient that raises the quality of what you craft by one level. Do you use it now or save it for later? Do you craft a top quality mid tier item, or a mid quality top tier item or save it until you can craft Q5 top tier stuf (maxed crafting skill) and use it to craft a Q6 top tier? That's an interesting choice...
  

Definitely 'I can sit at home and craft everything' is not good gameplay, but 'looting eventually makes my crafting skills pointless' isn't either. 'I'm a great crafter so occasionally my looting gives me the chance to craft something just as good as what can be found by looting' is good game play, to my mind.

 

[Guppycur]

I saw few medieval mods but looks just... uhh..

Medieval.  Just a few of my prefabs; we have hundreds more now, this was a while ago.  

https://youtu.be/bODlCxI6eIg

 

[mstdv inc]

Because being able to craft every single thing is dumb. There should be some things you can only find in loot. And, by rare item, did you mean something that is loot only? Because if you did....then what's the difference in looting the weapon or the item to craft it? Crafting something has the benefit of being able to sit on your ass and do nothing while crafting it. Looting means being out and taking risks and there should be rewards for that. If you can craft a legendary weapon then it isn't legendary. Just doesn't make sense to me. This whole "I should be able to sit in my base and craft everything I will ever need" mindset is odd to me. Looting is and will always be a core part of the game. If you don't want to loot that's fine, but then you miss out on cool stuff.

You have a little strange logic.There are three ways to get items in the game: find, buy, craft.To find an item, you need to loot, to buy an item, you need to loot, sell what you don't need and buy what you need.To craft an item, you need to loot to find the right details.All three ways of obtaining items imply looting.Therefore, the player has the right to buy or craft an item no worse than he can find.The risk is the same in all cases.On the contrary, I am in favor of the fact that the player, with a certain development of perks, could craft all items, including solar panels and elements, as well as items of the tier 6. Without this, crafting cannot be considered complete.
But in order for everything to be in balance, a system of specializations is needed.If a player becomes a nerd, he will be weak in battle.If this is a strong fighter, he will not be able to craft anything better than stone tools.And now players simply increase the characteristics of strength and intelligence and get everything at once.This is not right.There is no sense in other characteristics now at all.

Try once not to use strength and intelligence in your survival.The game will open up for you from a completely different side.

 

[Guppycur]

You have a little strange logic.There are three ways to get items in the game: find, buy, craft.To find an item, you need to loot, to buy an item, you need to loot, sell what you don't need and buy what you need.To craft an item, you need to loot to find the right details.All three ways of obtaining items imply looting.Therefore, the player has the right to buy or craft an item no worse than he can find.The risk is the same in all cases.On the contrary, I am in favor of the fact that the player, with a certain development of perks, could craft all items, including solar panels and elements, as well as items of the 6th shooting gallery.Without this, crafting cannot be considered complete.
But in order for everything to be in balance, a system of specializations is needed.If a player becomes a nerd, he will be weak in battle.If this is a strong fighter, he will not be able to craft anything better than stone tools.And now players simply increase the characteristics of strength and intelligence and get everything at once.This is not right.There is no sense in other characteristics now at all.

Try once not to use strength and intelligence in your survival.The game will open up for you from a completely different side.

I agree with BDub.  It makes no sense that with a @%$#ty workbench I can make something as good as a factory quality item, despite any perks into it.

My take would be lvl 1-4, craftable.  lvl 5 non existent.  lvl 6 lootable only.  

The lvl 4's would be "good enough", and the lvl 6's would be rare finds that encourage exploration and looting, without requiring some stupid perk, and they would be from "the old world" which is just inherently better than anything made "today", because it has factory precision and better material quality.

...you'd be able to play just fine with lvl 4 gear, but lvl 6 would just excite you and make you work harder not to die, thus encouraging all forms of gameplay.

I agree with BDub.  It makes no sense that with a @%$#ty workbench I can make something as good as a factory quality item, despite any perks into it.

My take would be lvl 1-4, craftable.  lvl 5 non existent.  lvl 6 lootable only.  

The lvl 4's would be "good enough", and the lvl 6's would be rare finds that encourage exploration and looting, without requiring some stupid perk, and they would be from "the old world" which is just inherently better than anything made "today", because it has factory precision and better material quality.

...you'd be able to play just fine with lvl 4 gear, but lvl 6 would just excite you and make you work harder not to die, thus encouraging all forms of gameplay.

...

Oh, and being able to repair lvl 6 items would go away as well.  They'd last a lot longer, but none of this duct tape to repair BS.

 

[Roland]

The problem right now is not that purple tier items are loot only and so that invalidates the blue tier items you crafted. The problem is that purple tier items are so common that you can be entirely kitted out with them. That was the mistake, imo. If you could only get 2-3 pieces of equipment or armor total in a play through of highest tier then everything you crafted would stay relevant and the few things you found would be special items. 
 

Legendary items are going to have various tier levels but they are going to have a permanent mod attachment that cannot be removed and that will provide an awesome ability not available in any other way. 
 

So, yes, that legendary shovel, Ol’ Sodbuster, might be a yellow tier steel shovel with a non-removable mod that increases attack speed for every clump of grass you destroy with a 10 second window so that you can clear all the grass in an area blindingly fast.  Stuff like that and you probably won’t get very many in any particular play through and they won’t be necessarily meant to be the next tier up that you would try and obtain for every weapon, every armor piece, and every tool. 

 

[Gamida]

So, yes, that legendary shovel, Ol’ Sodbuster, might be a yellow tier steel shovel with a non-removable mod that increases attack speed for every clump of grass you destroy with a 10 second window so that you can clear all the grass in an area blindingly fast.

Wait? What? Tell me more about this amazingly wonderful device that I absolutely need.

(And if you think I am joking just ask Guppy)

 

[Roland]

Wait? What? Tell me more about this amazingly wonderful device that I absolutely need.

(And if you think I am joking just ask Guppy)

Well, it only exists in my brain as an example of the type of things Joel is thinking of for “legendary” items. But when he starts adding such things I’ll be sure to mention 0l’ Sodbuster!