PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[AmishMan53]

@AmishMan53: I think Roland's response was on point on that topic. Everyone can understand when people in a group are not behaving in a "teamly" manner.  :lol:  It's like playing soccer or basketball with your friends and never being given the ball at all during the game... what would you think?

nah i get it.. like i said in my post i'm with roland on the camaraderie thing, but on the flipside, to what extent is that group truly caring about the loot perks?  When i play with my friend, when he had more points into the loot perk i let him open the primarily important containers (hardened chests, gun safes, etc.).  I would loot things that don't have the greatest things like trash piles, cupboards and such.  But that's my group, and we share a base for only a few horde nights before going on our own.  Some people play PVP as friends.  Some simply play in a co-existing fashion.. not playing supportive of each other or against, just existing in the same world and enjoying the game having those moments "duuuude i just got a sniper rifle quality 5".. other guy "awesome man, good find."  If your friends are being toxic to a degree that you can't enjoy it, you'll likely find new friends to play with on your own.. don't need some PR head telling you to find new friends when you express complaints with the game you play with them.  Either way.. that's just one instance of too large amount of Roland completely disregarding players concerns and standing on the attitude of "don't like it, too bad" or "the problem is you, not the game."

 

[Jost Amman]

nah i get it.. like i said in my post i'm with roland on the camaraderie thing, but on the flipside, to what extent is that group truly caring about the loot perks?  When i play with my friend, when he had more points into the loot perk i let him open the primarily important containers (hardened chests, gun safes, etc.).  I would loot things that don't have the greatest things like trash piles, cupboards and such.  But that's my group, and we share a base for only a few horde nights before going on our own.  Some people play PVP as friends.  Some simply play in a co-existing fashion.. not playing supportive of each other or against, just existing in the same world and enjoying the game having those moments "duuuude i just got a sniper rifle quality 5".. other guy "awesome man, good find."  If your friends are being toxic to a degree that you can't enjoy it, you'll likely find new friends to play with on your own.. don't need some PR head telling you to find new friends when you express complaints with the game you play with them.  Either way.. that's just one instance of too large amount of Roland completely disregarding players concerns and standing on the attitude of "don't like it, too bad" or "the problem is you, not the game."

Well, what you see as Roland not caring about that player/customer, I see as Roland explaining how the devs intended the game to be played, or in the specific case hoe COOP is "supposed" to be played. Sometimes using the short version of the word, we forget that the origin of COOP is Cooperative, which means that if you play it with people that don't really cooperate with you, you're not going to enjoy the benefits of that type of gameplay (to the least).

So, from my point of view, it's not much about them (Roland/TFP) giving you advice on how you should choose your friends, but is more about them explaining how the game rules and balancing will affect you if you play that way.

"Don't ask the devs what the game can do for you, but ask yourself what YOU can do with the game."  :heh:  (JFK - Joking Funny Kidding)

 

[meganoth]

View attachment 26539

Edit:  Since that's wikipedia.. thought i'd give a couple more.

View attachment 26540

View attachment 26541

Sources: https://thesaurus.yourdictionary.com/mocking, https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-thesaurus/mock

I stand corrected. Though if I interpret wikipedia correctly it is saying that mocking can be an insult but also can be just making light of a person. Is making light automatically insulting? Mocking is also a synonym for teasing and sneering, but teasing is hardly insulting while sneering is. Context seems important.

To make it short, I don't see Rolands quite apt remark as an insult. I see it as giving a hint and pointing squarley at a problem the player should solve himself (see below for consequences of removing LL like the player wants). He can do that by changing the friends he plays 7d2d with or by reeducating the friends that this is not something he will do. When I started playing 7D2D with a few friends a long time ago one was suggesting to let the LL-player loot the boxes in the loot room. I told him that I don't care for that as I want to loot as well and we should split up the boxes in the final loot room. And we have been doing that ever since.

It doesn't mean co-op players can't decide for themselves to make one the looter if they want it that way. If they have fun with that, good for them. I even talked with a member of such a group once and at least the person I spoke to said they all want that and have fun with it. And I bet those players would complain heavily if TFP removed LL and they would say TFP is removing their play style.

About Rolands and this forums style, yes, that is not the PR style US customers are used to. They expect people to get fired if they don't say "yes" to everything a customer says even if it is wrong or childish. I think that is the wrong way, it only leads to people learning to let out their worst traits when facing people that are there to serve them in some way. I care for the humor practiced around here. I care for the candidness, that they speak what they think, not what players want to hear to get their ego stroked.

 

[Roland]

How is telling a person "you need new friends" not an insult/insulting.. and the response does absolutely ignore this persons concerns. 

I just want to be clear that I wasn't mocking the guy or even insulting him in any form. I was absolutely seriously advising him to get new friends to play the game with based on what he shared about his experience with them. He literally needs to be playing with different people if they are treating him that way. As a teacher I advise students all the time when they tell me how their "friends" treat them or encourage them to do bad things and there is no mockery. There are plenty of use cases when someone could tell someone else to get new friends and it is not an insult at all.

Just because Saven interpreted my response as mocking doesn't make it so. 10/10 I would tell that guy or any guy who shares on the forum that his friends yell at him and stop him from opening containers to find new people to play with. Those people are not his friends and if there is any insult involved it isn't vs the guy getting yelled at, it is vs the people calling themselves his friends.

It is true I did not address the rest of the guy's rant directly to him even though I had already addressed those concerns within the thread. I didn't mock or insult his concerns. I just ignored them since the answers were already posted.

 

[Roland]

View attachment 26539

Edit:  Since that's wikipedia.. thought i'd give a couple more.

View attachment 26540

View attachment 26541

Sources: https://thesaurus.yourdictionary.com/mocking, https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-thesaurus/mock

I admittedly do many of these things from time to time but not in the quoted case. It was good advice, not gentle mocking. Their team dynamics as described aren't healthy. Period.

 

[Riamus]

Honestly, I think people today want to feel insulted and offended.  So many today get upset over what is essentially nothing.  I'm not suggesting that insults and verbal attacks don't happen. They most certainly do.  But too often people call something insulting or offensive when it very clearly wasn't meant that way.

I, for one, appreciate freedom of speech and don't approve of the censorship that is being pushed on us these days.  More and more in the US, we are getting told that we can't say this is that our express our beliefs because it might offend someone somewhere.  That isn't freedom.  If I disagree with you or think you are wrong, that isn't something to be offended about.  It is life.  If I express that I disagree it think you are wrong, again, that isn't something to be offended about.  People are going to disagree with you throughout your life and if you take offense whenever someone dies, you are going to have a pretty unhappy life.  Of course, some people want to be offended so they can use that as an excuse to push their own agenda.

There were some Polish jokes earlier, and getting past Polish myself and having used those jokes even about myself, I feel I can comment on them.  In almost all cases, such jokes are just that - jokes.  It isn't meant to be offensive and there isn't any reason to be offended by them.  There are exceptions, of course.  It's one thing to make a Polish joke in fun.  It is entirely different to call someone an idiot, whether or not that is attached to a joke.

I find this forum refreshing.  Almost any other forum would have deleted a bunch of posts, banned people, and locked the thread.  Here, people are allowed to express their opinions, even if they don't align with TFP.  And mods aren't forced to be politically correct.  It's a nice change.

Life is short.  Lighten up.  Have fun.  Laugh and be willing to laugh at yourself.  You'll be happier.

 

[Magnus33john]

I seen a lot said and much of its missing the point and confusing the Sentiment of the players.

Yes things have been said that by Roland and others that have not been fully thought out or my have been insulting but lets not forget there people just like us and are not perfect anymore then we are. So dont take it too seriously unless it goes way over the line.

Saven's video was not a journalistic piece and comparing it as such is really missing the whole point. It was a video voicing players concerns and they are legitimate concerns.

The fun pimps of late have been rather missing something important which they once knew so well.

A game like any business succeeds or fails because of the consumers and if you don't listen to or betray them you dont have a game/business.

Anyone remember boxee box? A great idea ahead of its time but they didn't listen to the people and there long gone now.

So much of this could easily have been addressed and avoid but mistakes have been made.

Telling someone who used bows/bolts to play differently because of the water/glue change was frankly dumb.

People play the way they enjoy not the way someone else may or expects them too.

A smarter response should have been there glue been re-balanced to avoid any problems when your aware the fp thought of this.

But that wasn't said and look where we are and this is just one example.

I understand the fun pimps have a vision for the game but this vision needs to be tempered with what the players want.

If it goes too far into the don't like it tough area then it wont matter what their vision is as there wont be a game.

Better communication needs to be had and it can be done without giving anything away.

It's not hard either as it would have gave away nothing to say yes water been changed but they did take glue into account so that wont be broken.

It answers the players concerns without giving anything away and avoids players becoming upset.

Also the fun pimps are going to make mistakes too as they are human or at least undead.

They are not always going to get things right but as long as they listen to the players mistakes can be fixed.

In the end Saven's video was to express players concerns and get people talking. It did just that and that's decidedly for the best.

 

[Pernicious]

A game like any business succeeds or fails because of the consumers and if you don't listen to or betray them you dont have a game/business.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford (misattributed)

There is room for innovation. Most people fo tend to think along the lines of "improve what I have", over something different and better.

Of course at the time, not everyone sees it.

"The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty — a fad." -President of the Michigan Savings Bank, advising Horace Rackham (Henry Ford’s lawyer) not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903

 

[Roland]

the Sentiment of the players.

Can we at the very most call it "the Sentiment of some players"?

Yes things have been said that by Roland and others that have not been fully thought out or my have been insulting but lets not forget there people just like us and are not perfect anymore then we are. So dont take it too seriously unless it goes way over the line.

I have fully thought out what I said and would 100% say it again and 1000% disagree that it was an insult in any way. Just because some people would like to re-engineer what I said into something else so they can spin the narrative to their way of thinking, doesn't make it so. Telling someone they don't have any friends is insulting. Pointing out to someone who publicly shares how they're being treated poorly by their friends that they should make a change is not insulting.

Saven's video was not a journalistic piece and comparing it as such is really missing the whole point. It was a video voicing players concerns and they are legitimate concerns.

The fun pimps of late have been rather missing something important which they once knew so well.

A game like any business succeeds or fails because of the consumers and if you don't listen to or betray them you dont have a game/business.

Real concerns and legitimate concerns are two different things. I acknowledge that some players have real concerns but if those real concerns are based on false assumptions and faulty information then they are not legitimate as real as they might be. I have helped several people understand the crafting feature who came here angry about the change because they heard about it from on online personality who completely bungled what the change actually was. In all cases, once the person understood what the change entailed their level of concern went way down. I know it may be hard to believe that I was helpful and courteous to several people who didn't like the change but I have a pretty good sense these days for those who are here to learn and want to actually know the reasons and who are here just to bash and troll and cause trouble.

As far as the fun pimps betraying or failing the consumers of late, I really don't get where this comes from. I can only surmise that "of late" must refer to the last few major updates as in A18, A19, and A20. Well, every one of those updates has resulted in growth and popularity of the game. I'm sure that there are some players who feel betrayed because their favorite feature was changed or the way they liked to play became more challenging to do, but the game and business is not going to go away because of some of the players. Maybe if it was a majority of the players there would be some risk of that happening but the majority still seem to be playing the game and trusting in the direction TFP is going or at least are willing to reserve judgement for when A21 comes out and they can try it out for themselves.

Telling someone who used bows/bolts to play differently because of the water/glue change was frankly dumb.

People play the way they enjoy not the way someone else may or expects them too.

A smarter response should have been there glue been re-balanced to avoid any problems when your aware the fp thought of this.

But that wasn't said and look where we are and this is just one example.

I don't remember anyone from TFP telling someone that they can't play bows/bolts anymore. Bows/bolts are still in the game for A21. Maybe you can show the response by TFP staff that said for someone to kiss their bows and bolts goodbye. Maybe there have been voices in the community making fatalistic doom and gloom statements that bows and bolts are going to be dead in A21 thanks to the change in water jars but not TFP.  You say this is just one of many examples but I encourage you to try and find some. In my recollection TFP actually coming out and telling players that their playstyle has been developed out of the game is extremely rare. It is usually players making that claim-- which is usually proven false not much later when other players report successfully playing in exactly that playstyle. TFP usually claims that a particular playstyle might be a bit more challenging or have some risk associated with it that previously was not there but rarely tells anyone they can't play a particular way any longer period. The three instances that come to mind are using an underground base risk free during bloodmoon, treading water risk free during bloodmoon, and driving around in vehicles during bloodmoon without risk. They absolutely did tell people in those instances that those playstyles would no longer carry zero risk to them.

I understand the fun pimps have a vision for the game but this vision needs to be tempered with what the players want.

If it goes too far into the don't like it tough area then it wont matter what their vision is as there wont be a game.

I agree with this. Fortunately, we are standing so far away from the edge of that precipice that there is zero danger of there not being a game. The game is more popular than it ever has been among the general player base. All evidence points to the players mostly wanting what TFP is giving. There will always be a few unhappy elements of the player base and if they congregate together on a couple of Streamer chats they might feel like some kind of majority to themselves. But TFP monitors several outlets of player sentiment as well as having tracking software built into the game to give them feedback on how players like to play the game and what type of gameplay is going on so they do have an early warning system if it appears what they wish to do is going to alienate a significant portion of the player base.

Better communication needs to be had and it can be done without giving anything away.

It's not hard either as it would have gave away nothing to say yes water been changed but they did take glue into account so that wont be broken.

It answers the players concerns without giving anything away and avoids players becoming upset.

I'm all for the ideal of continual improvement. We will keep communicating what we can. Again, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to in terms of glue. I don't remember anyone at TFP posting that glue would be broken in A21 nor that people who crafted a ton of glue would be out of luck. Glue crafting isn't even governed by a magazine so you can do it from day one without having to rely on RNG for the recipe sooner or later. I'm just trying to figure out where this concern about glue originated from-- TFP? or baseless fears of folks who haven't experienced A21 yet? I suspect the latter but if you can show me a TFP employee telling people that mass glue crafting is no longer supported or possible, I'd like to see it.

Also the fun pimps are going to make mistakes too as they are human or at least undead.

They are not always going to get things right but as long as they listen to the players mistakes can be fixed.

Yes, we make mistakes and we are human. But....listen to "the players" will fix our mistakes? Which players are you talking about? You can't honestly believe there are only two voices that exist: "The Devs" and "The Players".  The only way to develop is for the team to stay true to their vision and hope that most of the players continue along through the ride and more players hop on the ride as we go. There is not just a single "The Players" voice to listen to.

Philosophically, I agree with your stance that the game is only going to live so long as the player base agrees that it is worth their time to play. I suppose where we disagree is whether the voice of the people have drawn the devs right up to edge of that precipice where the game is in danger of failing and sinking into obscurity just like boxee box. I don't believe they are even close enough to the edge to even see the edge. Part of that is that for the last several years we have had individuals coming here predicting that the game won't survive the next update because TFP isn't listening to the people and in every single case it wasn't the people-- just that individual.

The closest we came was the A16 change to A17 and yet not even that turned us into boxee box. The game has grown in popularity far beyond what it was in A16 and in that case there were a lot of individuals coming here to express that THIS time TFP had angered "the players" and unless they reverted the game it would be doomed. I was a bit worried it might be true seeing as how I'm the closest of the staff to the forums but the devs weren't worried at all and the historical evidence is all on their side. Did we lose some individuals due to the A16/A17 changes? Absolutely. But did we lose "the players"? Not at all.

 

[Jost Amman]

They are not always going to get things right but as long as they listen to the players mistakes can be fixed.

I completely disagree with this statement. That's like saying that an engineer building a bridge should listen to the pedestrians, so that his "mistakes" can be fixed.

 

[Magnus33john]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford (misattributed)

There is room for innovation. Most people fo tend to think along the lines of "improve what I have", over something different and better.

Of course at the time, not everyone sees it.

"The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty — a fad." -President of the Michigan Savings Bank, advising Horace Rackham (Henry Ford’s lawyer) not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903

 Yes some of the suggestions or wants are not going to make any sense but most will start to consolidate around certain topics.

 

[Magnus33john]

I completely disagree with this statement. That's like saying that an engineer building a bridge should listen to the pedestrians, so that his "mistakes" can be fixed.

Rather missed the point i see.

A engineer can build a perfectly functional bridge but it could look like ass.

They see things from their perspective which is function and don't always think about other things.

The function must always  be balanced with the needs and the wants.

The blackberry phone was a perfect example of this. Great function and reliability ,but failed because it's aesthetics never kept up with what people wanted.

The best engineers are going to learn function isn't everything and get better.

 

[Magnus33john]

Can we at the very most call it "the Sentiment of some players"?

I have fully thought out what I said and would 100% say it again and 1000% disagree that it was an insult in any way. Just because some people would like to re-engineer what I said into something else so they can spin the narrative to their way of thinking, doesn't make it so. Telling someone they don't have any friends is insulting. Pointing out to someone who publicly shares how they're being treated poorly by their friends that they should make a change is not insulting.

Real concerns and legitimate concerns are two different things. I acknowledge that some players have real concerns but if those real concerns are based on false assumptions and faulty information then they are not legitimate as real as they might be. I have helped several people understand the crafting feature who came here angry about the change because they heard about it from on online personality who completely bungled what the change actually was. In all cases, once the person understood what the change entailed their level of concern went way down. I know it may be hard to believe that I was helpful and courteous to several people who didn't like the change but I have a pretty good sense these days for those who are here to learn and want to actually know the reasons and who are here just to bash and troll and cause trouble.

As far as the fun pimps betraying or failing the consumers of late, I really don't get where this comes from. I can only surmise that "of late" must refer to the last few major updates as in A18, A19, and A20. Well, every one of those updates has resulted in growth and popularity of the game. I'm sure that there are some players who feel betrayed because their favorite feature was changed or the way they liked to play became more challenging to do, but the game and business is not going to go away because of some of the players. Maybe if it was a majority of the players there would be some risk of that happening but the majority still seem to be playing the game and trusting in the direction TFP is going or at least are willing to reserve judgement for when A21 comes out and they can try it out for themselves.

I don't remember anyone from TFP telling someone that they can't play bows/bolts anymore. Bows/bolts are still in the game for A21. Maybe you can show the response by TFP staff that said for someone to kiss their bows and bolts goodbye. Maybe there have been voices in the community making fatalistic doom and gloom statements that bows and bolts are going to be dead in A21 thanks to the change in water jars but not TFP.  You say this is just one of many examples but I encourage you to try and find some. In my recollection TFP actually coming out and telling players that their playstyle has been developed out of the game is extremely rare. It is usually players making that claim-- which is usually proven false not much later when other players report successfully playing in exactly that playstyle. TFP usually claims that a particular playstyle might be a bit more challenging or have some risk associated with it that previously was not there but rarely tells anyone they can't play a particular way any longer period. The three instances that come to mind are using an underground base risk free during bloodmoon, treading water risk free during bloodmoon, and driving around in vehicles during bloodmoon without risk. They absolutely did tell people in those instances that those playstyles would no longer carry zero risk to them.

I agree with this. Fortunately, we are standing so far away from the edge of that precipice that there is zero danger of there not being a game. The game is more popular than it ever has been among the general player base. All evidence points to the players mostly wanting what TFP is giving. There will always be a few unhappy elements of the player base and if they congregate together on a couple of Streamer chats they might feel like some kind of majority to themselves. But TFP monitors several outlets of player sentiment as well as having tracking software built into the game to give them feedback on how players like to play the game and what type of gameplay is going on so they do have an early warning system if it appears what they wish to do is going to alienate a significant portion of the player base.

I'm all for the ideal of continual improvement. We will keep communicating what we can. Again, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to in terms of glue. I don't remember anyone at TFP posting that glue would be broken in A21 nor that people who crafted a ton of glue would be out of luck. Glue crafting isn't even governed by a magazine so you can do it from day one without having to rely on RNG for the recipe sooner or later. I'm just trying to figure out where this concern about glue originated from-- TFP? or baseless fears of folks who haven't experienced A21 yet? I suspect the latter but if you can show me a TFP employee telling people that mass glue crafting is no longer supported or possible, I'd like to see it.

Yes, we make mistakes and we are human. But....listen to "the players" will fix our mistakes? Which players are you talking about? You can't honestly believe there are only two voices that exist: "The Devs" and "The Players".  The only way to develop is for the team to stay true to their vision and hope that most of the players continue along through the ride and more players hop on the ride as we go. There is not just a single "The Players" voice to listen to.

Philosophically, I agree with your stance that the game is only going to live so long as the player base agrees that it is worth their time to play. I suppose where we disagree is whether the voice of the people have drawn the devs right up to edge of that precipice where the game is in danger of failing and sinking into obscurity just like boxee box. I don't believe they are even close enough to the edge to even see the edge. Part of that is that for the last several years we have had individuals coming here predicting that the game won't survive the next update because TFP isn't listening to the people and in every single case it wasn't the people-- just that individual.

The closest we came was the A16 change to A17 and yet not even that turned us into boxee box. The game has grown in popularity far beyond what it was in A16 and in that case there were a lot of individuals coming here to express that THIS time TFP had angered "the players" and unless they reverted the game it would be doomed. I was a bit worried it might be true seeing as how I'm the closest of the staff to the forums but the devs weren't worried at all and the historical evidence is all on their side. Did we lose some individuals due to the A16/A17 changes? Absolutely. But did we lose "the players"? Not at all.

There not only two voices but for the purpose of this discussion keeping it a little black and white keeps the confusion/clutter out which has been much of what caused this in the first place.

Dev need to stay true to their vision but that vision must be tempered with realty and that realty is it's not just about what they want.

Without the players there is not game and that vision never becomes true in any form.

The iphone wasn't just about what the engineers wanted and included feedback from many places.

Boxee failed for two reasons.

The first being they betrayed their user base not once but twice which is not what we are seeing here.

The second is there was no communication when major questions were asked which is part of whats happening.

A example of this is the glue arrow post where that person need to make lots of glue for the arrows and basically got told play differently.

This created a problem which tell then didn't exist and could have easily been answered with the FP took glue into account and no need to worry.

Not all the changes are going to be winners but as long as the players believe they are being listened too even it's as small as something like say glue they are going to stick around.

There are plenty of games that aren't the greatest in the world but are much loved because of the community and the dev's listing and respond to them.

What happened here is more about a lack of communication, finger pointing and people reacting hurt and defensive.

Look at the response to Saven video which some went on the attack and accursed it of bad journalism.

When all the video was doing was bring to light players concerns caused by a lack of information, confusion and hurt feelings for some.

Too many hurt ego too much confusion which could have been avoided.

Some answers where ill thought out, some less then informative.

Toss in varying levels of maturity..(not everyone going to be drinking age) and things go out of hand.

More direct to the point answers about concerns (within reason) can stop problems before they become problems and leave players reassured.

The glue being a perfect example (yes glue again lol) a answer that said they realized the water change would effect this and addressed this already , would have stopped that debate before it ever became one.

The irony is now because of the video people are not getting direct answers and things are being discussed .

They feel less in the dark and though they may not agree with everything they do feel a part of it

 

[Roland]

There not only two voices but for the purpose of this discussion keeping it a little black and white keeps the confusion/clutter out which has been much of what caused this in the first place.

Okay but if we are going to choose two voices out of the cacophony, why choose that one and call it the voice of “the players”? What makes that voice vs the dev’s vision the black and white choice?  What if the devs listen to that voice and deviate from their plan to follow that voice and it turns out that voice they followed was only 2% of all the players and now 98% are unhappy?

I have lost count of the times I’ve read in game reviews that the game was going great until the devs listened to a loud minority and ruined it. 
 

The second is there was no communication when major questions were asked which is part of whats happening.

That simply is flat out false and the result of you trusting Saven’s reporting where he picked out two instances and represented the totality by those two examples. That’s been my point all along. If you go back and read the whole thread around the time the feature was revealed you will see plenty of information and questions answered and tons of courteous reassurances that the new changes work well. In the one example he shows of my supposed insulting response it turns out to not be an insult at all. I wasn’t even saying what he claimed I said and if you read the original conversation, the guy was here to stir up trouble and demand that the devs should obey player polls when choosing new features for the game. He wasn’t interested in having his concerns massaged, he wanted the new features to be cancelled outright. 
 

I don’t know what you keep referring to about nobody addressing glue. There have been a number of conversations about glue and in none that Inrecall did anyone at TFP tell someone to not use bows and bolts. 
 

The irony is now because of the video people are not getting direct answers and things are being discussed .

They feel less in the dark and though they may not agree with everything they do feel a part of it

Whatever…most of the information we’ve given predate Saven’s video and there’s been no change in how info is released as a result of any of this discussion. We’ve been giving answers about glue, team dynamics, empty jars, and dew collectors all along since the feature was announced but Saven searched (while not logged in) for two instances that rubbed him the wrong way and presented those as how we always do it.
 

 I certainly plan to continue to mix in humor with straight answers so there may be another quote coming up for a future Saven investigation. Look, if you want your guy to get credit for a new era of TFP openness then go hit those like and subscribe buttons. That was his motivation all along anyway. 

 

[Jost Amman]

Rather missed the point i see.

A engineer can build a perfectly functional bridge but it could look like ass.

They see things from their perspective which is function and don't always think about other things.

The function must always  be balanced with the needs and the wants.

The blackberry phone was a perfect example of this. Great function and reliability ,but failed because it's aesthetics never kept up with what people wanted.

The best engineers are going to learn function isn't everything and get better.

No, I didn't miss the point. You did.

My example was about letting professional do their jobs and not have their decisions skewed by "popular vote".

As Fiorello La Guardia once said: "There's no democratic or republican way to clean the streets.", and I agree.

Many requests from the average player are made without considering performance, development time, cost or any other factor that a dev studio will know. Following the bridge example, it's like if some pedestrians asked the engineer to make the bridge in such a way that it'd be impossible to build in a stable way, just because they want it aesthetically pleasing. Furthermore, In TFP's case, they also know (on average) how to make things work fine (programmers) and look good (designers and graphic guys).

As Roland said, you can't please everyone. So, if you start changing the game by listening to one group, you may very well @%$# the other off.

I like more TFP's approach. They know what they want, but they also (sometimes) let some good feedback influence their decisions. That's all.

 

[unholyjoe]

<snipped>

As Roland said, you can't please everyone. So, if you start changing the game by listening to one group, you may very well @%$# the other off.

I like more TFP's approach. They know what they want, but they also (sometimes) let some good feedback influence their decisions. That's all.

precisely and then as someone we all know of once said on multiple times .....

 

[lord_ahriman]

Most of us don't have a clue about how to play A21, but from what we have been told so far A21 is looking more and more like A17: a bad alpha.

The thing I hate the most is the new "learn by looting" which is totally unfair for a builder "hardcore" (I always play dead is dead, survavilist difficult, no air drop, 64 zombies) point of view. Example, my main strategy early/mid game is to continue the progress at night by mining underground and now it's gone (again, judging from what we have been told): wasteland full map is going to be almost impossible if we can't get minimal progress from gathering resources or building .

Some solutions that could help:

1) The "glue problem" I think could be solved by changing dew collector size and filter availability so we could have more stations in a small area, so it's not a big deal.

2) The learn by looting could be mitigated, again by a builder point of view, by making magazines available at vending machines as well. This a good solution and it's like Madmole once said about a certain good you want to buy from traders and you don't have enough money: just collect some wood or stones to buy it and you could go same route with magazines. Not ideal, but would help a lot.

3) The vending machines food/drink prices increased could be mitigated by a little revamp from quest rewards, at least early game. I'm not advocating a huge amount: if I'm not wrong lvl 1 quest reward is 330 duke coins, so make it like 10 ~ 12% more, 370 coins (give or take)

 

[meganoth]

There not only two voices but for the purpose of this discussion keeping it a little black and white keeps the confusion/clutter out which has been much of what caused this in the first place.

Dev need to stay true to their vision but that vision must be tempered with realty and that realty is it's not just about what they want.

Without the players there is not game and that vision never becomes true in any form.

The iphone wasn't just about what the engineers wanted and included feedback from many places.

Boxee failed for two reasons.

The first being they betrayed their user base not once but twice which is not what we are seeing here.

The second is there was no communication when major questions were asked which is part of whats happening.

A example of this is the glue arrow post where that person need to make lots of glue for the arrows and basically got told play differently.

This created a problem which tell then didn't exist and could have easily been answered with the FP took glue into account and no need to worry.

Not all the changes are going to be winners but as long as the players believe they are being listened too even it's as small as something like say glue they are going to stick around.

There are plenty of games that aren't the greatest in the world but are much loved because of the community and the dev's listing and respond to them.

What happened here is more about a lack of communication, finger pointing and people reacting hurt and defensive.

Look at the response to Saven video which some went on the attack and accursed it of bad journalism.

When all the video was doing was bring to light players concerns caused by a lack of information, confusion and hurt feelings for some.

Too many hurt ego too much confusion which could have been avoided.

Some answers where ill thought out, some less then informative.

Toss in varying levels of maturity..(not everyone going to be drinking age) and things go out of hand.

More direct to the point answers about concerns (within reason) can stop problems before they become problems and leave players reassured.

The glue being a perfect example (yes glue again lol) a answer that said they realized the water change would effect this and addressed this already , would have stopped that debate before it ever became one.

The irony is now because of the video people are not getting direct answers and things are being discussed .

They feel less in the dark and though they may not agree with everything they do feel a part of it

The glue-answer you are referring to by schwanz9000 is this, right?

You could try a different horde night strategy. Lots of options available. I've been having a TON of fun with my melee only horde bases. Saves a TON of ammo.

That reply was to RipClaw, a long-time forum member. He gets talked to differently than a guy that makes his first post. RipClaw would also know to continue discussing when he is not satisfied with an answer. Which he actually did. And if you continue reading it spawned a discussion with many answers, even a long post by Roland saying how many water jar he found actually raiding 5 kitchens. Anything else someone might want to know has to be found out by playing A21.

Now if we are talking about silent readers of the forum getting the wrong idea from this answer then I likewise have to ask why they only see this answer and not all the other discussion that followed that post or all the other talk about glue and water bottles. It is a forum after all where discussions happen. It is not a FAQ or an encyclopedia where you have exactly one answer per question.

Where I agree with you is that information policy of TFP could be improved. A central place to find information is missing. Who would know to check the first post in the Dev Dairy thread to get a list of confirmed features if not told by someone? And even that post could be improved with more information about the reasoning of changes.

But I'm really astonished at you defending Saven's video when he does nothing but trying to incite a mob with sentences out of context. You seem intelligent enough to know that mob rule is not desireable even when sometimes something good might accidentally come out of it. 

 

[Roland]

1) The "glue problem" I think could be solved by changing dew collector size and filter availability so we could have more stations in a small area, so it's not a big deal.

What glue problem?  The only glue problem that exists is in your fears. Until you play A21 you can’t know whether there is even a glue problem at all. The loot tables are different, the trader prices and product balance is different and even the glue crafting recipe is different. Everything you are worried about as a potential problem are things that should be worked out or changed after we get feedback from players who have played.  Even hardcore builders should actually play A21 first before concluding they are completely screwed. 

2) The learn by looting could be mitigated, again by a builder point of view, by making magazines available at vending machines as well. This a good solution and it's like Madmole once said about a certain good you want to buy from traders and you don't have enough money: just collect some wood or stones to buy it and you could go same route with magazines. Not ideal, but would help a lot.

There are magazines available to buy at the trader and you get nine magazines as an optional quest reward per quest not to mention all the magazines you’ll find while questing. Bookstores are the mother lode. Honestly, filling vending machines with even more magazines would be overkill. 
 

3) The vending machines food/drink prices increased could be mitigated by a little revamp from quest rewards, at least early game. I'm not advocating a huge amount: if I'm not wrong lvl 1 quest reward is 330 duke coins, so make it like 10 ~ 12% more, 370 coins (give or take)

The food and drink prices were adjusted to better balance the survival game as they were too easily purchased allowing the player to ignore completely murky water. They raised the prices on purpose. Why would they then erase that change by increasing quest reward money?  Again, this is something that should actually be played first and then give your feedback on whether you think prices are too high and keeping yourself fed and hydrated too difficult. 
 

A21 is looking more and more like A17: a bad alpha.

Well, we wouldn’t want to be odd alpha pattern breakers…lol

It’s impossible for us to convey in words all the changes that make A21 work. I’ve noticed that people keep slipping into thinking that player progression is tied to the magazines and that builders will be stopped in their progression. I can understand this because even when playing it the first few times I would forget that I could still spend skill points to progress my skills independently of what magazines I had found or what I could craft. The change code wise was simple and design wise just a step apart from what we have in A20 but gameplay-wise it’s a whole new meta that you absolutely have to play to fully understand the new puzzle of early to mid game survival. 
 

 

[meganoth]

Most of us don't have a clue about how to play A21, but from what we have been told so far A21 is looking more and more like A17: a bad alpha.

The thing I hate the most is the new "learn by looting" which is totally unfair for a builder "hardcore" (I always play dead is dead, survavilist difficult, no air drop, 64 zombies) point of view. Example, my main strategy early/mid game is to continue the progress at night by mining underground and now it's gone (again, judging from what we have been told): wasteland full map is going to be almost impossible if we can't get minimal progress from gathering resources or building .

Some solutions that could help:

1) The "glue problem" I think could be solved by changing dew collector size and filter availability so we could have more stations in a small area, so it's not a big deal.

Isn't this a bit premature to complain about filter availability when nothing is known about that in mid- and late game?

Size of the collectors is well-known though. But have you ever made a tree farm? As a builder and miner surely. What about a garden in A16 before you could place farms easily on the top of your base? Did the size of your tree farm ever disturb you? Did you ever complain farms use up too much space to be put on top of your crafting base?

Think of a dew collector not as a workstation but as a "water" tree like many mods have apple trees to farm resources off and suddenly placing them somewhere in a garden apart from your base is a natural thing.

2) The learn by looting could be mitigated, again by a builder point of view, by making magazines available at vending machines as well. This a good solution and it's like Madmole once said about a certain good you want to buy from traders and you don't have enough money: just collect some wood or stones to buy it and you could go same route with magazines. Not ideal, but would help a lot.

Again, we don't have first-hand knowledge about the drop rate of specific magazines and how to influence that to really know whether a builder will get into trouble. Sure, it is much more likely that it is detrimental to a pure builder game, but only actual experience playing A21 will show possible solutions. Remember that vending machines can be used by normal scavenger players as well, so if they simply increase the sources for magazines then normal players will craft end-game stuff in early game.

3) The vending machines food/drink prices increased could be mitigated by a little revamp from quest rewards, at least early game. I'm not advocating a huge amount: if I'm not wrong lvl 1 quest reward is 330 duke coins, so make it like 10 ~ 12% more, 370 coins (give or take)

Same as above. A21 needed much rebalancing work after the crafting changes (according to the developers). You don't even know whether a lvl1 quest gives 330 dukes and what you can buy with it. 10% more money for a quest may be unneccessary, just right or totally insufficient. We won't know before playing it.

And I'm sure there will be stuff that is not balanced well. There are always details that fall through the net of the testers, that is what experimental and EA is for. But you won't know which details are the problem and which are not, until you play it.