PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Fanatical_Meat]

The drama in these forums can be so tedious.

My newest peeve is:

“Whaaa, learn by looting means I have to carry magazines back to the people I play with. Whhaaa”

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?

Going to guess the amount of looting will be directly related to the loot setting in the game, which is adjustable.

Also thank you for not complaining about having to carry unused magazines back to base.

 

[Laz Man]

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?

The cement mixer is unlocked pretty early in the workstation crafting category while demolishers come at a pretty late game stage.  Players should have more then enough time to get there, especially if they focus on workstation crafting.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

I believe the reason has already been mentioned.  We are in the gold push now.  Could the original LBD be reimplemented in a way that is better then what we already have?  Maybe...

However, doing so would take too much time which is just not in the cards anymore.  It is more likely to happen in the next game potentially.

Hey Laz, thank you for the reply. 

That's very sad news. However, is there any chance that modders could reimplement it? 

I would gladly donate many times the price of the game to anyone or group looking to reimplement any of the old systems, but that would require some facilitation by the developers.

Thank you

 

[RipClaw]

Going to guess the amount of looting will be directly related to the loot setting in the game, which is adjustable.

That was not my point. It's about how much you have to loot with default settings. Creating a mod that gives me ten times more magazines would be a matter of 5 minutes.

It should be known that there is a wide range of player types in this game. There are those who play the game as a lootshooter and those who play it like Minecraft.

The task of balancing is to find some sort of middle ground.

 

[RipClaw]

The real decision is between taking the safe route and the risky route. In card games many of the decisions are exactly like that.

And that's why casinos collect so much money from people who like to take a risk.

If you could predict the outcome of a horde night with 100% accuracy then you might have a point. But the guy taking the risk and losing by not finding the recipe has still a good chance to live through horde night (probably with some more damage to the horde base, but ok, you can't win em all). And the guy taking the safe route might still get into trouble because he underestimated the horde or he made a mistake.

Even if you can't predict it 100%, you have experience. If the base barely withstood the last horde, it will most likely barely withstand the next one.

In addition, you have experience when it comes to looting. If you know how many magazines you find per day on average, you can estimate what your chances are of finding the magazines you need in time.

 

[lord_ahriman]

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

Good build needs tech and builders couldn't have the time needed in the new system. I don't know, I'm really skeptical. I like the new "water survival minigame"and of course I need to watch a gameplay before any conclusions, but as of now, "learn by looting" is a very bad idea.

 

[RipClaw]

The cement mixer is unlocked pretty early in the workstation crafting category while demolishers come at a pretty late game stage.  Players should have more then enough time to get there, especially if they focus on workstation crafting.

Hopefully, by the time the first demolishers show up, I'll have upgraded my base to steel and not just concrete.

I took the demolisher and the base, that is not even upgraded to concrete, as an extreme example because players who like to build but don't like to loot are afraid that this is exactly what will happen if the balancing is tailored to players who loot 7 days a week. If you look at the comments under the Youtube video, you can see that very clearly.

 

[doughphunghus]

I *feel* that “learn by looting”’s actual Purpose is to force people into a specific progression skill tree (you have to find and read magazines to progress) to control the “escalating flow” of days progressing (kinda like trying to stretch out the progression so that people play to at least “day x” when they finally get mor things, to help alleviate speed leveling AND (more importantly) to punish building a bit, as most of the game is *not* building.  In doing this, hopefully by each horde night you *don’t” have a perfectly perfect base, because you had to spend time running around, thus making each horde night a little more exciting besides sitting inside a castle and taking out zeds without a care in the world.

The main complaints I have seen are “but what about the builders, that only build!”.  Well, other than “you better have nice friends/family that care enough about you to either bring back magazines OR craft items for you” I think the idea is, if you don’t have this as part of your team… you’re going to suffer so get out there and find a good team to support you or learn to suffer if you only build.

It’s like mining. If you’re only going to mine, and are alone.. you’re going to have a hard time.

 

[Laz Man]

Hey Laz, thank you for the reply. 

That's very sad news. However, is there any chance that modders could reimplement it? 

I would gladly donate many times the price of the game to anyone or group looking to reimplement any of the old systems, but that would require some facilitation by the developers.

Thank you

Have you played either Darkness Falls or Undead Legacy?  If not, those overhauls might be exactly what you are looking for.  AFAIK, both of those overhauls have reintroduced some form of LBD (action skills).

 

[Khalagar]

Thanks for the video link.  There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.

I've not really seen anything that addresses the "The zombies were training" issue, where this change makes any non-looting task a now sub-optimal time usage. Base building and mining etc were always purely optional but were there for people who enjoyed them, except now you are directly punished by doing it instead of spending your time doing literally nothing besides chain quest building clearing as fast as you can to find magazines.

I agree heavily with the hybrid system (since learn by doing was objectively the best system imo lol) as it gives you a reward for everything you want to engage in. Currently if you spend some time leveling out an area around your base and mining and building etc, you've just wasted a day and raised your gamestage and fell behind anyone else in your group who was looting. IMO some kind of hybrid system should at least let you keep up.

It's not even about making non-looting the optimal playstyle or more rewarding, it's just about not being actively punished for doing anything else *but* looting. This change just seems like yet another one where it's forcing the devs mandatory play style on the player and limits the game in really weird ways. That's why I brought up the attribute system too, because it also locks the player into the only playstyle the devs wanted, like machine guns being paired with brass knuckles instead of being able to make your own build and use a machine gun and a machete or a spear or whatever you thought sounded fun.

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

1. Khalagar said he/she wanted to change A, B, C, D, E and F of the current 7D2D version.
   

Nah I posted it as basically an "aside" where the main point was the Learn by Looting issues, then with a few page breaks to make it clear it was a separate issue, just talked about the attribute system being janky AF because it also does need updating while they are reworking the perk trees

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

Yeah man that's crazy, like imagine if the devs were overhauling stuff drastically by doing something major like completely revamping the crafting system to use magazines. That's probably too much work though and would change 7 Days to Die to a completely different game entirely from A20! </s>

 

[Mister Forgash]

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

I'm not saying the concern isn't valid. But until we're experiencing it, I feel like it's a little early to be calling out doom and gloom.

We all know Madmole likes to build, I can't imagine he's going to punish the builders that much.. I forget if he's a fan of mining.. Either way, though, I'm not really convinced of anything until experimental drops. - That'll tell us how the balance skews. All that said, there's sub-optimal choices in every game, particularly RPGs and people make it work all the time. - I highly doubt it's as punishing as you suggest. I'm keeping my pitchfork on standby until then and letting it rest for now.

For those who choose to play with altered difficulty settings: Insane zombies, always run, etc. I think a certain amount of min/maxing to to be expected.. We'll see what normies can get away with.

 

[Laz Man]

I've not really seen anything that addresses the "The zombies were training" issue, where this change makes any non-looting task a now sub-optimal time usage. Base building and mining etc were always purely optional but were there for people who enjoyed them, except now you are directly punished by doing it instead of spending your time doing literally nothing besides chain quest building clearing as fast as you can to find magazines.

I agree heavily with the hybrid system (since learn by doing was objectively the best system imo lol) as it gives you a reward for everything you want to engage in. Currently if you spend some time leveling out an area around your base and mining and building etc, you've just wasted a day and raised your gamestage and fell behind anyone else in your group who was looting. IMO some kind of hybrid system should at least let you keep up.

It's not even about making non-looting the optimal playstyle or more rewarding, it's just about not being actively punished for doing anything else *but* looting. This change just seems like yet another one where it's forcing the devs mandatory play style on the player and limits the game in really weird ways. That's why I brought up the attribute system too, because it also locks the player into the only playstyle the devs wanted, like machine guns being paired with brass knuckles instead of being able to make your own build and use a machine gun and a machete or a spear or whatever you thought sounded fun.

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

Nah I posted it as basically an "aside" where the main point was the Learn by Looting issues, then with a few page breaks to make it clear it was a separate issue, just talked about the attribute system being janky AF because it also does need updating while they are reworking the perk trees

Yeah man that's crazy, like imagine if the devs were overhauling stuff drastically by doing something major like completely revamping the crafting system to use magazines. That's probably too much work though and would change 7 Days to Die to a completely different game entirely from A20! </s>

Funny meme about gamestaging but that isn't something new introduced by this crafting system change.  Believe it or not, this change is comparatively smaller and less disruptive to other systems than a complete redesign/reintroduction of attributes, XP, LBD, perks.

 

[mstdv inc]

While reading the last couple pages I started thinking about what changes I would like to see to the game as far as skills go.

I would like to see a couple new melee skills like dodge and parry.
I never feel safe meleeing because the zombies just beat the hell out of you, it would be nice if you could dodge and parry the attacks a little bit.

This is also an opportunity to add a new skill to the melee tree for us to spend skill points on and add a few magazines that are defense oriented.

Each branch has perks for melee and ranged weapons.If there are no changes planned in the future, then the game implies that you use melee weapons only at the initial stages of the game and sooner or later you will come to firearms.It is already difficult to imagine how you will complete tier 4/5 quests and fight off 10-15 radiation zombies, how you will fight off the horde and how in the future you will confront bandits with melee weapons.

[SIZE=inherit]I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game![/SIZE]

And this other game is very likely to be able to provide modders after the release of the game.

 

[Roland]

Roland, if you move my first post, I'll be mega-sad. ;(

I'd get you a jar to collect your tears but there aren't any anymore.

 

[Laz Man]

I'd get you a jar to collect your tears but there aren't any anymore.

Too soon...too soon....lolol

 

[unholyjoe]

I'd get you a jar to collect your tears but there aren't any anymore.

just send him a filter for the dew collector he will have to make.

 

[Roland]

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

I'm not sure why "Because the devs don't want it" isn't good enough for you. Why does it even matter if some players are against your hybrid system? Other players don't have any control over how the game is programmed and designed. The only people who do have control are the devs and the fact that they don't want it is the beginning and the end of why the game doesn't and wont have any kind of dedicated LBD or hybrid LBD system.

I've already given you the official stance of TFP that there won't be LBD. Its time to move on and stop beating this dead horse. Your LBD/Learn by reading hybrid system would make a great mod. Put your energy into getting to know a modder who can help you realize it. But trying to drum up support among players in this or any other forum for such a system is futile and off topic for A21. Even if you got all of us on board it wouldn't matter because......the devs don't want it.

The current system that has been implemented for A21 is not going to go through any changes or edits until after players get their hands on it during A21. If there needs to be some balance adjustments they will happen after people try the changes out for themselves.

 

[RipClaw]

I'm not saying the concern isn't valid. But until we're experiencing it, I feel like it's a little early to be calling out doom and gloom.

It is better if concerns are raised early. It is always more difficult to change something afterwards instead of considering it from the beginning.

It's not a bad thing to remind the developers that looting is not everyone's favorite activity even if it is one of the core mechanics.

We all know Madmole likes to build, I can't imagine he's going to punish the builders that much..

But he also likes looting. The question is always what he prefers at the moment.

I also don't think it's about punishing builders. It is a disadvantage for builders that arises because a part of the progress that is currently accessible via the perks has been shifted to looting.
 

 

[RipClaw]

It is already difficult to imagine how you will complete tier 4/5 quests and fight off 10-15 radiation zombies, how you will fight off the horde and how in the future you will confront bandits with melee weapons.

Depending on the difficulty setting and POI, it is not a problem to complete T4/T5 quests with melee weapons only. You need some space to move around and you need to know the timing of your weapon. Then it actually works.
 

As for the horde, you have to have the right horde base. If you create a bottleneck then you have to deal with only 2-3 zombies at the same time. Or you can use electric traps to kill most of the zombies and only deal with the rest that are left.  You can play an entire game without firearms. You just have to know how.
 

 

[Jost Amman]

I also don't think it's about punishing builders. It is a disadvantage for builders that arises because a part of the progress that is currently accessible via the perks has been shifted to looting.

I have the perfect solution! They just need to add a small % chance that while mining you'll find a magazine!  eace:   arty:

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

Yeah man that's crazy, like imagine if the devs were overhauling stuff drastically by doing something major like completely revamping the crafting system to use magazines. That's probably too much work though and would change 7 Days to Die to a completely different game entirely from A20! </s>

Yeah, imagine the devs actually making decisions for their own game instead of players... crazy! Am I right?  /s

Anyway, I trust TFP will do everything in their power to keep this kind of balancing into mind and avoid these kinds of pitfalls.