PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Laz Man]

It's not always that simple. Maybe you not only need better equipment, but you also need to finish the new base because the next horde is coming in two days and you still need resources.

If you simply go on a magazine hunt, you might end up with a half-finished base and hardly any ammunition left. And in the worst case you are still missing some magazines to finally have the better weapon. That's why balancing becomes even more important in A21.

That's actually the beauty of it.  The player has to choose what's more important to them and what trade offs come from it.

For example, I am one magazine away from being able to craft something I really want (i.e. junk sledge).  Being able to craft that item will help me significantly in the upcoming bloodmoon.

Do I choose to loot a few more Mo Power related POIs or do one more quest in hopes to get that last magazine or spend more time building up my base instead?

The tougher these decisions are, the better.

 

[RipClaw]

That's actually the beauty of it.  The player has to choose what's more important to them and what trade offs come from it.

And that's exactly the point. You have to be able to make a real decision.
 

If it is not possible to find the required amount of magazines to upgrade my equipment in the remaining time, then it is better to continue building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment. There is then no real decision one could make.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging.  It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing.  It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

LBLAD - Learn by Looting AND Doing.

Looting for magazines to craft items and learn by doing to improve other skills like mining, exercise, and even cooking. Or fun crossovers like creating better trainers (sneakers) to assist in the exercise, unlocking certain boosted recipes for cooking, and mod books for mining.

I would see the hybrid system as one which creates more depth and adds morr fun to the game, one which accomodates more people while at the same time making absolute sense.

This current incoming binary system creates a divide sharply in favour of a certain group, and since I am far from being a voracious looter, the new system interests me very little. That's not to say it's useless - but it is heavily weighted away from my playstyle.

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and that looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

Great point! If we ignore the most salient reason "the Devs are not interested in Learn by Doing as a progression mechanic," why can't we have Learn by Doing? I think you've cracked the case. LBD coming in A22.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Great point! If we ignore the most salient reason "the Devs are not interested in Learn by Doing as a progression mechanic," why can't we have Learn by Doing? I think you've cracked the case. LBD coming in A22.

'I don't want it,' is not a reason. It is a statement. The reasoning informs the statement.

I suggest you re-read both of our statements, cut your sarcasm out, and then respond appropriately.

If you pull another Jost, I won't entertain any more of your comments. 

It may also be pragmatic to take note of two words in particular within my post: 'Hybrid system.'

 

[Jost Amman]

@Kosmic Kerman: you've been warned!  :nono:   :fear: :mad2:

Actually, I wouldn't be against a hybrid system, in principle.

The only problem is, if you add that, the devs will need to rebalance the entire XP system.

 

[Doomofman]

This day week we'll be 12 months on from the first A20 dev stream... Just sayin...

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

@Kosmic Kerman: you've been warned!  :nono:   :fear: :mad2:

Actually, I wouldn't be against a hybrid system, in principle.

The only problem is, if you add that, the devs will need to rebalance the entire XP system.

I can't argue with that point.

It would be time consuming, sure, but I think since the devs have plenty of experience now with jumping between systems it may not be so hard.

Sometimes, however; though short term time comsuming exercises do create lag, the long term benefits can far outweigh any of this inconvenience. Perhaps the devs would give re-consideration to such a hybrid system.

 

[Melange]

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and thag looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

Damn, you edited your post. I wanted to throw a thagomizer into the foray. Oh wait, I just did...

Other than that, I can say I do see your point. And we can complain to deaf ears.

Tell the chef you don't like his cooking...would his response of 'Then don't eat!' come as a surprise? And then some of the wait staff will converge on your table and berate you that you have no taste. You are not worthy!

There's a lot of dead horse flogging going on here. And it will later be served on a silver golden platter.

Steal the silverware and get the fork outta there. 

 

[Mister Forgash]

Greetings one and all. This is long, long overdo,  I've been frequenting these forums since A16, and have read thousands of pages of Dev dairy since that time .. it's kinda funny to feel a little like I know so many of you when you don't know me. Where to begin.. Oh yes.

So I've been watching streamers play since A15, and I have several hundred hours in myself and I've twisted the arm of a few friends to buy the game as well I like to think my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, but with such strong opinions here...

All that aside, here are my takes on some of the upcoming and more commonly discussed game systems:
- Learn by looting - is a victim of poor branding.- If we called it Learn by reading I can't help but feel like there wouldn't be as nearly as many people getting their tenderbits in a twist. Like all changes, It's hard to know exactly how it will play out without trying it ourselves. I think it'll be great in Singleplayer and I think it'll be not-bad in multiplayer as long as you're working as a team with your friends. If your friends are dicks, you've probably already had problems with teamwork in the past. Unless you have a self-imposed rule wherein you can only use gear that was player crafted, I expect the setbacks you encounter will be minor- but the benefit of smoother progression will be enjoyed .. No more - "I went 3 weeks before finding the forge recipe! Q_Q" - Nor will you feel forced to spec into it when this is the luck you have.

- Water Jar gate - I just think this is going to feel weird after the first 1-2 hours of dealing with It I'm pretty sure the vast majority of players wont think of it again, leaving only the most anal of the playerbase to have issues. [I think] I would have liked a different solution to this balance conundrum, but I understand this was done for the sake of balance, and I'm going to be real- I haven't gone (really)thirsty since my first 2 hours of overall playtime- Yes, in 7D2D in general, not like the first hour of seperate playthroughs, water has been freakin' easy-peasy.

- Farming / Living off the Land - I would have strongly preferred that instead of getting seeds back on harvest, there was instead a chance the crop just went back to seedling stage on harvest, saving time on replanting. Outside of that, It just seems to me there's a bunch of people that want to have large functioning farms without investing the ONE FREAKING PERK POINT to make it statistically viable. Hopefully they can find a way, no matter how soulcrushing to go without a point in Rule 1: Cardio for another level or something. Bloody tragic. Otherwise plant the seeds you find and stop crafting them.

- Perks - This is the spicy one. I see the benefit in another redesign but I certainly am not pushing for it. I really think there's 100 different takes to have on this. If it were my choice, I'd push for a hybridized system like Beelzebub mentioned- Learn by Reading, Improve by doing. Books/mags give your character the ideas [Unlocking schematics, perks], engaging in activities gets your character proficient enough to spend points in said perks. You spent a lot of time running around and now your athletics is level 15? Congratulations you're eligible to drop a point in XYZ improving your sprinting in some vague way! .. Got you hand to hand  skill to 20? If you're going to stick with it, you should invest in the boost to punching damage.. You going to drag your ass on cacti until you're a boss at taking damage? .. I don't have a solution for this kind of stupid behavior, that's why I acknowledge the flaws in my argument.

Josh, Beelz, play nice. Snowdog, keep your pants on. Please, we beg of you.

Roland, if you move my first post, I'll be mega-sad. ;(

 -- Looking forward to being part of the discussion, sorry for the wall of text!

 

[RipClaw]

Unless you have a self-imposed rule wherein you can only use gear that was player crafted, I expect the setbacks you encounter will be minor- but the benefit of smoother progression will be enjoyed .. No more - "I went 3 weeks before finding the forge recipe! Q_Q" - Nor will you feel forced to spec into it when this is the luck you have.

In A20, you have these two options to unlock the recipe for the forge. In A21 you will only have the magazines and no alternative. There are no more schematics and investing points in Advanced Engineer increases the probability of finding Forge Ahead magazines but it doesn't unlock the recipes anymore.

Progress may be smoother depending on the regularity with which you find the appropriate magazines, but the order is now fixed. First comes the dew collector and last the crucible. Everything is always unlocked in exactly the same order.

 

[Melange]

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

Man, I respect your opinions...though don't always agree.

But why would you even say this to a contributor to the forum? Think all you want, but you don't have to voice what you're initial thought is.

OK, you're blunt. I get it. But there's no need to be rude and/or demeaning. Back off a little and you may get more respect. And more positive interaction.

Just me seeing a trend that's become not so pleasant.

Crank it down a few notches please.

And we can continue to banter, joke and agree to disagree, just a tad more gently.

 

[Star69]

For those still arguing for ‘learn by doing’ and not understanding why it’s gone, I’d suggest clicking on Madmole’s name and go through his posts. He goes into great detail his and the teams decision to abandon that technique and why it was necessary. Heck, I even seem to remember that discussion about it was banned at some point on this forum.

Perk changes that are coming are to be expected. In A20, they began collecting internal game data which included which perks everyone was taking as well as the number of levels in those perks. Naturally it was to see which perks were being used and which weren’t so they can kill off or modify perks not used or rarely used as well as improve commonly used perks. It’s not about changing the perk system as a whole…..they are actually taking into account what players are doing and tweaking it for the better using actual player feedback as a whole, not based on the loudest voices on the forums. Those people opting out of allowing them to collect that data have no room to complain as this a way to give actual feedback on how you play the game.

 

[JCrook1028]

Progress may be smoother depending on the regularity with which you find the appropriate magazines, but the order is now fixed. First comes the dew collector and last the crucible. Everything is always unlocked in exactly the same order.

That's the only issue I have with the change. I don't like it being so linear in unlocks. Maybe reading magazines could give you "points" to spend in whatever order you want within the "tree".

 I still find the hybrid system the perfect answer as in UL.

 

[meganoth]

And that's exactly the point. You have to be able to make a real decision.
 

If it is not possible to find the required amount of magazines to upgrade my equipment in the remaining time, then it is better to continue building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment. There is then no real decision one could make.

The real decision is between taking the safe route and the risky route. In card games many of the decisions are exactly like that.

If you could predict the outcome of a horde night with 100% accuracy then you might have a point. But the guy taking the risk and losing by not finding the recipe has still a good chance to live through horde night (probably with some more damage to the horde base, but ok, you can't win em all). And the guy taking the safe route might still get into trouble because he underestimated the horde or he made a mistake.

 

[lord_ahriman]

Thanks for the video link.  There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.

In general the following were his worries.

1) RNG would be too heavy handed with drops and will cause player frustration.

2) Non looter players will have a harder time progressing their skills.

Magazines are pretty plentiful, so I don't think this will be a problem.  Whenever, I was in search of a particular magazine type, I would go out of my way to visit POIs that would have a greater chance of having the ones I wanted.  Since you can get them as rewards and for sale from the trader, players have many ways to obtain the types they are hunting for.

If there are some edge cases, it will be balanced accordingly.

Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging.  It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing.  It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.

Magazines are essentially a new valuable commodity for players to use, buy, sell or trade with other players.

This should improve the experience for all game modes versus how crafting was unlocked previously.  SP players, can work towards unlocking all crafting should they choose to do so, while MP players can work towards pooling their magazines on their dedicated crafters.

The team is well aware of all of the concerns, and are eagerly trying to wrap up this Alpha so you guys can give it a try.

I think the new system will be extremely punitive for building players: gamestage will rise when building/gathering tons of resources (and we all know that takes a lot of time) at the same time said player will be stuck in the past (technologically speaking).

 

[Laz Man]

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

LBLAD - Learn by Looting AND Doing.

Looting for magazines to craft items and learn by doing to improve other skills like mining, exercise, and even cooking. Or fun crossovers like creating better trainers (sneakers) to assist in the exercise, unlocking certain boosted recipes for cooking, and mod books for mining.

I would see the hybrid system as one which creates more depth and adds morr fun to the game, one which accomodates more people while at the same time making absolute sense.

This current incoming binary system creates a divide sharply in favour of a certain group, and since I am far from being a voracious looter, the new system interests me very little. That's not to say it's useless - but it is heavily weighted away from my playstyle.

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and that looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

I believe the reason has already been mentioned.  We are in the gold push now.  Could the original LBD be reimplemented in a way that is better then what we already have?  Maybe...

However, doing so would take too much time which is just not in the cards anymore.  It is more likely to happen in the next game potentially.

 

[meganoth]

I think the new system will be extremely punitive for building players: gamestage will rise when building/gathering tons of resources (and we all know that takes a lot of time) at the same time said player will be stuck in the past (technologically speaking).

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

 

[Jost Amman]

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

Man, I respect your opinions...though don't always agree.

But why would you even say this to a contributor to the forum? Think all you want, but you don't have to voice what you're initial thought is.

OK, you're blunt. I get it. But there's no need to be rude and/or demeaning. Back off a little and you may get more respect. And more positive interaction.

Sorry, but I didn't realize I was being rude... can you quote where I said something that you perceived as being rude?

That wasn't my intention. I already explained that my question was NOT like saying "go play another game".

That was a misinterpretation on someone else's part, or to the least, a misunderstanding.

I'll try to be extremely clear of my intent now:

1. Khalagar said he/she wanted to change A, B, C, D, E and F of the current 7D2D version.
   
2. All those numerous changes would basically create a new game, or a completely different 7D2D.
   
3. Hence, why my question was (I'll unpack it now): "Since you want so many changes that the game would not actually be or play like 7D2D anymore, why are you even playing 7D2D? If you want so many changes, it's implied that you must hate the game as it is".
   

I hope it's more clear now. I have no quarrel against Khalagar in any way.

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

 

[RipClaw]

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?