PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow
- Thread starter meilodasreh
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Kalex
Active member
I always took the crying to be the more intelligent zeds using mimicry to try to lure gullible "good Samaritans" into a trap.Man, been a while since I have heard those creepy sounds. I don't blame the player who recorded the video to stop and look behind them lol...
The cries didn't seem like babies to me, but creepy dying gasps of someone unfortunate...*looks behind himself*
Not necessarily. Think The Whisperers from The Walking Dead. Nothing paranormal about those crazy bastages.
Jost Amman
Well-known member
beerfly
Colony Rounder
I kind of see your point, but that's not really how un-treated water works. IRL, it's very much a random chance of getting sick from drinking untreated water. Depending on the source that chance might be higher or lower, but there's no magic formula saying you can drink under X amount of water and be safe from contracting a disease.
Is it harsh, though? Let's be honest, getting dysentery in this game does not have a big enough effect to really worry that much about. Plus treating dysentery in-game is relatively easy. Just make sure you save those goldenrod teas when you find them because right now they have very little use. This change will actually make that item more useful.
Khalagar
Active member
Vedui just put out a video on the A21 learn by looting and actually brought up the exact same issues I did a few weeks ago
IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training
Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue
I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".
That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.
Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns
Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"
IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.
Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you
If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . . brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL
IMO it's worth a watch for those who don't understand why I think the learn by looting system is going to gimp a lot of playstyles and players, since it is basically the same exact issue Skyrim has with the "The Draugr Were Training " meme. Building your base? The zombies were training. Digging in your mine? The Zombies were training. Crafting some gunpowder and cooking some food? The zombies were training
Anytime not spent looting 24/7 is now "sub-optimal time usage" which doesn't directly translate to the player improving. You'll get exp while building your base, but all that exp will do is make the gamestage go up without directly translating to you getting better equipment to fight the stronger zombies. Vedui also brought up the exact same issue I made with coop too, where you will get left far behind your friends, and you can't expect them to bring back magazines for you because they will take up an absurd amount of inventory space which is already a major issue
I don't want to be gloom and doom since TFP are usually fairly rational about some of their changes, but this is one I think they need to elaborate a lot more on, because even just reading about it on paper and thinking about it for more than a few seconds has you go "Wait, but what about X?".
That aside, I do hope TFP uses this time to rework the attribute system to actually make sense as well. I've played most survival games out, and never seen such a weird attribute system that is confusing to new players / anti-common sense.
Raised your strength to max level? I bet you can carry a ton of weight and hit like a truck with melee weapons! Well actually no, you just do more damage with shotguns for some reason. Raised your agility to max? I bet you are fast AF boi and can jump over the moon! Well actually no, you just do more damage with SMGs. But wait, your endurance is max level, I bet you are REALLY tanky and durable and have the stamina of a god! Well actually no, you just do more damage with machine guns
Even my friend who has like 700+ hours still doesn't really know how the perks and attributes work at all, and always says stuff like "Oh I can just run over there real fast, I put several points in agility so I move really fast"
IMO we need the perks to just make more sense so there aren't wasted points, like if you are wanting the mining perks but are planning to use a sniper, every single point you wasted on strength is . . . wasted, because for some reason weapon types are tied to attributes and the base attribute itself provides absolutely nothing for "off attribute" weapons.
Would be way better if the attributes gave flat stats like +health / stamina / block damage etc, and then if the trees had it so like Strength was all the melee and tool perks, Perception was all the ranged weapon perks, Agility was all the move speed perks etc. That way you could put a few points into agility to make sure you did enough damage with the gun you wanted to use, while also putting points into intelligence so you can cook food that won't kill you
If they did it like that, they could do a lot of neat things like make it so you could do a "strength build" and potentially add a shield or something for people to be able to go full melee and endurance and wade into zombies like a juggernaut, or go a dex type build with ranged + agility to be agile and kite enemies etc. The current system just makes it really weird to do basically any kind of build besides using the arbitrary weapon the devs thought made sense to couple together, like a heavy machine gun and . . . . . . . brass knuckles??? So if you are like "but I want to use a heavy machine gun and a knife =(" you are SOL
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Fanatical_Meat
Well-known member
Flare gun?
Is this one of your mods?
is it client side or server side or both?
Jost Amman
Well-known member
Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?
Judging by all the "modifications" you want to the game, you should play a completely different game in the first place.
The only other option I see is to ask someone to create an overhaul mod for you, with all this stuff exactly as you like it.
And as I said the other time... these problems you see only apply to MP/COOP, so, from my perspective, no, I don't want them to change anything.
Having said that, I don't see much of a problem anyway: your friends don't need to come back to base to give you the mags, they just collect them on the spot, put them in a chest on the road, and then you go fetch them when you have time.
As for the zombies getting better and you not having good enough loot, again, why aren't your comrades providing you with some stuff you may need? Aren't you doing your part for the group? Why aren't they helping you? If they don't, then don't craft anything for them or ask better gear as "payment" for your high level crafting. It's a silly situation IMO, easily solved by some more collaboration in the party.
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Khalagar
Active member
Because I like the game and am allowed to without needing to justify it to you
Not really, since a lot of the issues are things that have are being actively changed by the devs from past versions that already worked. Also, this game is in alpha and now is precisely when I'm allowed to, and encouraged to, give feedback and opinions on the direction of the game and offer my thoughts on it. I'm sorry you don't think I should do this on the game forum for feedback, perhaps you should add me to the ignore list if this forum has such a feature so you can browse in peace without seeing feedback you don't approve of
I mean I didn't ask your perspective tho. I really am happy that you don't see these things as an issue, hopefully you can continue to enjoy the game in your own way, but clearly others do have their own issues and are very much so allowed to talk about them without need to ask for your permission to give it to the game developers during the "not even released yet and still in development" stage of the pre-release alpha.
You're more than free to give your perspective on my own perspective, but saying I need to just find a different game to play because you don't play the game in coop while I do is a pretty terrible take when I'm talking about changes that are particularly damaging to the many people playing in multiplayer or on servers etc
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G
Guest
Guest
What a bunch of bad takes.
The game is sold a single, co-op or multiplayer experience.
I genuinely can't believe you think it should only be developed around the singleplayer experience. More than that, you think it should be developed around YOUR single player experience.
Also your 'suggestions' won't work as magazines drop related to your attribution. So your looters are going to be finding magazines relevant to them, not to your base builder.
A complete playstyle and 'class' that has been around for years has been gutted from the game, so I think it warrants further discussion. Even if that discussion doesn't result in anything.
Your response though : "don't care, doesnt effect me, go play something else, your complaints are invalid."
How about not stifling feedback in a place specifically designed for feedback?
Beelzebubs Ghost
New member
Well responded Khal.
Seems even with pure reason and good feedback you still get pushback.
Every time I look at these forums and some of these responses I lose more and more interest in the game. Developer apologists and those intolerant or dismissive of legitimate objections and concerns create precisely the environment in which developers can continue; in those applicable cases, to go on ruining their product.
I enjoyed reading your posts and I think there's a lot of great criticisms in there with superb suggestions. I just think it will fall on deaf ears for the most part, though we can hope not
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Jost Amman
Well-known member
I was just trying to point out how illogical are your requests.
No, they're not. You have been talking about completely scrapping and rewriting the attribute and skill system.
I can't see how that's going to happen, even in your (and your friends') wildest dreams.
And by the way, I don't want to ignore you, I'm just discussing something like everybody else... if you can't stand criticism on what you write then don't post.
This is a discussion forum, isn't it?
So why is it ok for you to give opinions and not for me?
Except that if they change those mechanics the way you ask, it'll make the game worse for me (Single Player).
As I said before, but apparently you let it slide over your head, as long as they keep SP and MP rules one and the same, balancing the game for every group of players and for different needs, will never work. We'll keep fighting each other because what you want and need in Multiplayer, is the opposite of what I want and need in single player.
I'd never say that the way you're reading it, let me clarify: you're asking to completely rewrite integral parts of the game (again, take the attributes and perks system change you want), and by asking that you should know there's ZERO chance they're going to modify the game that way before release.
The attribute system is going to stay, the perk system will only receive a little rebalance, probably. If you think what you're asking is going to even be considered at this point in development, then you're either delusional, or you're just complaining to complain.
That's why I told you that you're asking basically to play a different game.
No. I'm just defending the view of the game I like.
As long as the changes you're asking for, don't impact the gameplay I like in single player, then I don't care. But as soon as I see that somebody else asks changes that will impact negatively the game in general (SP included), then I'm more than in my right to voice my dissent. I can't imagine why you can't understand that and why you're so surprised.
No. It doesn't work that way. They'll find any type of magazines, and a bit more of what they've perked into.
As usual, people make a bucket out of a drop.
Khalagar is asking to completely rewrite the perk system (and the loot mechanics?)
That would impact my game, so I'm in my right to express dissent (as an opinion).
Also, I don't understand why you're all so ruffled by my post.
How much do you think my opinion on your feedback accounts to for the devs? ZERO
So, don't worry, be happy, whatever feedback you're giving is not even remotely diminished by my personal opinion.
And by "pushback" you mean... counterarguments?
I didn't know her post was the Pravda, sorry.
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Jost Amman
Well-known member
Says the guy who can't reply to counterarguments when they're given.
I'm from a generation where everything can be discussed, argued and criticized.
I see nowadays there's plenty of people that see open discussions as attacks... how sad this is the new norm.
Jost Amman
Well-known member
@pattyboy27: I see you don't know the history of this forum, apparently... I and @Beelzebubs Ghost had a lengthy discussion on something, in a different thread, and when I gave my reply point by point, all he could say was basically that I wasn't good enough for him to reply. Then the same person, comes here and accuses the players in this forum of being apologists for the devs. ... Remember: if you believe your opinions have merit, you won't be afraid to confront with others.
I explained to Khalagar why I disagree with the changes he/she requested, so I'm far from dismissive, and my opinions are my own.
In the eyes of some people, anybody who agrees with the devs' choices is an apologist, jeez!
They can't even fathom that one can agree with TFP because they consider it impossible!
:facepalm:
I explained to Khalagar why I disagree with the changes he/she requested, so I'm far from dismissive, and my opinions are my own.
In the eyes of some people, anybody who agrees with the devs' choices is an apologist, jeez!
They can't even fathom that one can agree with TFP because they consider it impossible!
:facepalm:
pattyboy27
New member
You don't find it at all a coincidence that you apparently consistently get perceived as attacking people? "How sad". Seriously, spare us the indignant 'back in my day' stuff too please. It was a very dismissive response from your own singular experience against someone who was trying to consider the wider player base and not just themselves.
Edit: I "thumbs downed" your reply and now I'm getting spoken down to about not knowing the "history of the forums" lol. Carry on...
FWIW and back on topic I agree with you Khalager. Never understood the lack of consultation or any development framework / end-game coherent direction with updates, which end up being redesigned 2 patches later because 'ah crap, that didn't work'. I really love that TFP have committed to this game for so long, but at this stage it's just round and round in circles and stompin on old ground.
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RipClaw
Well-known member
You could also have this little problem as a single player in A21. And there you don't have anyone who can supply you with better equipment. You have to either craft it, buy it or find it.
Balancing the game will not be easy. There are players who like to loot non-stop, but there are also players who like to build or spend time in the mine. The question that concerns me is, what is the player type that the balancing will be based on? How many days a week will I have to set aside my hammer and pickaxe to scavenge?
Jost Amman
Well-known member
I don't see the problem in single-player, frankly.
If one needs better gear, they can focus on crafting or looting.
I'd go on "magazine hunting" until I'm able to get good enough gear by crafting it, and I'll also invest in the perks I want to be better at and have better gear for.
While I'm doing that, I'd be also sometimes finding better gear out of luck. If I don't, I can still use crafting or buy something from the trader.
In SP it's a no-brainer, honestly. I can see, however, that if you're playing with people who don't like to share with you, or they just don't care enough about the group, then you'll need to take things back in your hands and go out looting for a bit. And, yes, balancing it the right way, as always, will be pivotal.
You don't get it, don't you? People think I'm always aggressive because they don't have a clue what BLUNT means. I deliver what I need to say with no flowers and no embellishments. Some people can't go past the "form" and get offended. Well, I'm not going to change the way I deliver my opinions just to appease to some giant egos or some delicate souls.
My response was dismissive, in part, because (case in point) what Khalagar is asking the devs to change at this stage of development is preposterous.
If you can't understand that, then you're delusional as well.
That's because you're not part of TFP team and can't understand why they made each decision they made. It's also part of the normal development process, especially in Steam's Early Access, to change the game how many times you like if you don't like feature X or Y.
You call it "lack of direction"... I call it experimentation on to find what the better game mechanics are. As I told someone else before, TFP have very clear what game they'd like to create. What they changed several times (for different reasons) is the specific form of the implementation of their idea. They want an RPG? Yes. They put LBD as a placeholder, then they switched to V1 of the new attribute/perk system, then they refined and evolved it, and so on and so forth...
People look from the outside and make judgements and assumptions based on what they perceive, but not based on the truth of internal development workings.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
Thanks for the video link. There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.
In general the following were his worries.
1) RNG would be too heavy handed with drops and will cause player frustration.
2) Non looter players will have a harder time progressing their skills.
Magazines are pretty plentiful, so I don't think this will be a problem. Whenever, I was in search of a particular magazine type, I would go out of my way to visit POIs that would have a greater chance of having the ones I wanted. Since you can get them as rewards and for sale from the trader, players have many ways to obtain the types they are hunting for.
If there are some edge cases, it will be balanced accordingly.
Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging. It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing. It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.
Magazines are essentially a new valuable commodity for players to use, buy, sell or trade with other players.
This should improve the experience for all game modes versus how crafting was unlocked previously. SP players, can work towards unlocking all crafting should they choose to do so, while MP players can work towards pooling their magazines on their dedicated crafters.
The team is well aware of all of the concerns, and are eagerly trying to wrap up this Alpha so you guys can give it a try.
RipClaw
Well-known member
It's not always that simple. Maybe you not only need better equipment, but you also need to finish the new base because the next horde is coming in two days and you still need resources.
If you simply go on a magazine hunt, you might end up with a half-finished base and hardly any ammunition left. And in the worst case you are still missing some magazines to finally have the better weapon. That's why balancing becomes even more important in A21.