PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[mstdv inc]

You brought up faatal (a developer) and Roland (a person with access to the design so is going to play with an unconscious bias), not me.

Besides, I'm only arguing that removing bottles is weird and does nothing for water survival. Roland said pots are required to purify water, which means you will still find murky water, so unless there's something they still haven't told us, we will still be swimming in water. Pun intended.

...also, did you note that faatal said he was just thirsty for 3 days? Big whoop. Not exactly game changing. Early game is supposed to be hard.

If water ends up being challenging, like, for real, players will adapt and just focus on looting sinks (or whatever has it in a21) to get the pot. They'll still have it on day 1.

Find a town, break through the wall of the kitchen, loot sink, repeat. Since there isn't a zombie threat outside, and since sleepers although cool aren't exactly hard to avoid, you'll get your pot.

Sure, I could make it harder on myself by "role playing" and following the lights in the stupid dungeon design (what was once a great feature is now overused), but then again I could poke my eye out with a stick too. But why would I.

Besides. If water suddenly becomes hard to acquire, the casuals will complain and they will make it easy again.

But that's all moot. The removal of the returning jar is weird.

Very funny logic of "experienced" players."We'll get it on the first day."Yes, because that's how you play and you promote that style of play.Get all the best on the first day.What's the point of that?Develop faster in one game to start another?The process of the game itself is no longer interesting to you?Do you come to enjoy the game or are you engaged in its speedrans?It's right that developers don't always listen to you.You have played this game for so many hours that you are only interested in the constant increase in difficulty.You judge the game by yourself, and the developers take into account the interests of the majority, without constant which TFP support would not exist.And there wouldn't be such big updates every year.Gather all the people who think they know how to do it better than the developers and finally do it.You were given the opportunity to make modifications.You have interesting modifications.So keep changing the game the way you like, but don't touch the vanilla.Any of your global suggestions for changing the game will scare away a large number of players.And there is another good phrase "your expectations are your problems".This game is still in alpha access and we still agree by default with any change to it release, otherwise close and delete, wait for the release.

 

[Jost Amman]

So?

Collecting water doesn't deplete the block though with cans/jars. Only buckets do that

You lost where the conversation started...

 

[Jost Amman]

Besides, I'm only arguing that removing bottles is weird

That I can agree with you... but, hey! Games, right?

 

[BenZ0]

Since we are getting a water rebalance, how about a food rebalance too?

-No fresh food in loot, except canned food
-Animals give half the meat, so that the animal harvesting perk is more tempting to invest in
-Grace gives rotting flesh instead of fresh meat (Seriously! She's radiated!)

In A20, I can survive just fine on charred meat

One last thing, in A20, starving is a joke, you can literally "eat" medical items or have the fortifying grip (heal every 5 seconds) and you'll never have to eat food.
Losing 1HP every 40 seconds is too slow. Maybe 20 seconds would be better? (every 10 seconds for dehydration as well)
Sure, there's the max stamina penalty, but if you're well hydrated if offsets the penalty a fair bit


Also, dare I say, food spoilage!

I agree with the most of the things except food spoilage. That would be absolutely dumb. You couldnt stack food anymore except canned food and would be forced to buy food even more then you already are which therefore takes away the hunting and gathering natural recources for food even less efficiant. Ppl would end up just simply buying there food and never cook anymore since there would be no point anymore to cook yourself if that food would spoil anyway later.

 

[KhaineGB]

You lost where the conversation started...

I didn't. The conversation was about them being removed so the player can only find water/use the dew collector so water is more of an issue.

Therefore water blocks being depleted/not depleted, which you brought up, is not relevant.

The point is not to make everyone thirstier. The point is make it so that having an easily renewable source of good water is more of a process and journey. The removal of empty bottles is key to that because empty bottles made having renewable good water attainable almost instantly. With empty bottles gone you will be glad to get any murky water you find in loot for a lot longer into the game because finding more water is the only way to replenish your stores. We have become so ingrained with the idea that after a day of looting we will have a large stack of empty bottles that can be re-used forever that the idea that any water we find now is a one use fix, is tough to imagine. 

You can sort of try it out now by immediately throwing away any empty bottle you get. Keep filled bottles and use them but then throw them away. Go one step further and throw away any fresh water you find in loot and only keep murky water and see if there is any change in challenge level for you. It is a sort of role-playing way to play (sorry Gup) but as a little preview into how the removal of empty bottles will affect the game it will let you see for yourself right now what the game will enforce later.

Alpha 20: Find about 10 bottles (empty or filled) and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since you have infinite re-uses of those bottles (morning of Day 1)

Alpha 21: Get a dew collector farm built and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since they will infinitely regenerate water (Longer but exact length of time will vary)

Honestly, this could've been resolved by just lowering the amount of water murky water gives, increasing the dysentary chance and putting back the requirement to boil water in a cooking pot in the campfire, like it was in A16.

Back then we used to scrounge for every empty can we could just so we didn't have to drink the poop water  Then make cooking pots super rare in loot (so you'd have to find a POI with them just on the countertop) and/or gun for making a forge asap so you can crank out a pot and grill as fast as possible.

 

[FranticDan]

I agree with the most of the things except food spoilage. That would be absolutely dumb. You couldnt stack food anymore except canned food and would be forced to buy food even more then you already are which therefore takes away the hunting and gathering natural recources for food even less efficiant. Ppl would end up just simply buying there food and never cook anymore since there would be no point anymore to cook yourself if that food would spoil anyway later.

Subsistence does spoilage well, each stackable item has its own spoil timer. For example: you could have a stack of 10 meat from an animal, then 30 real minutes later you get another 10 meat that stacks on top of the existing stack, the new 10 in the stack will have a fresh timer while the older 10 will still be partway through the timer.

Secondly, new storage can be added, for example: early game we could craft an Iced Cooler, made from polymer and snow which when placed could last say 2 real hours, afterwards would downgrade to a normal cooler, during those 2 hours of 'iced' stage the spoil timer can be slowed by half speed. Using snow on a normal cooler will upgrade it to Iced.
Mid-game, we could craft an operational fridge, which would require power to keep running, having food stored in the fridge could slow down the spoil timer by 90%

 

[Survager]

Alpha 20: Find about 10 bottles (empty or filled) and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since you have infinite re-uses of those bottles (morning of Day 1)

Alpha 21: Get a dew collector farm built and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since they will infinitely regenerate water (Longer but exact length of time will vary)

In Mod "Undead Legacy" by Subquake, author did not remove jars, but made water a problem that is solved much more interesting. In Undead Legacy the player can draw water from washbasins, toilets, faucets, etc., but there or empty, or is usually a limited amount of water available there, about 1-3 jars. Thus, the player has a lot of empty jars, but no water, but the player can smelt the jars into glass and make windows )

 

[Jost Amman]

I didn't. The conversation was about them being removed so the player can only find water/use the dew collector so water is more of an issue.

Therefore water blocks being depleted/not depleted, which you brought up, is not relevant.

Dude, I literally quoted that part in my first post as a side argument.

The fact you're willingly ignoring how quoting works is your problem... whatever.  :frusty:

 

[KhaineGB]

I don't know about that. You still ended up with dozens of empty bottles pretty quickly in A16 which in a single run to the nearest water source could all be refilled and reboiled. The removal of empty jars and hence the change that all drinks are now one-offs is a much more significant change than you are giving credit. It is not the same result as just making murky water give less hydration or making dysentary more common or require a pot to boil.

The ability for ANY drink to return an empty bottle which can then be infinitely refilled is definitely one of the key reasons water has never been a struggle. So it may be weird to not have empty bottles any longer but it isn't JUST weird as it definitely does have an impact you can feel and none of the things you suggested yield the same effect as the removal of empty bottles does.

Like I said, anyone can simulate it right now to get the gist of it by throwing away every empty bottle they find or get after drinking. It won't be exactly the same since there is no pure water to be found anywhere and there is more water in loot in A20 than there is in A21. 

And? In A20, you also need that water for GLUE.

Admittedly i'm playing modded, but I'm only just getting to the point... on day 22... where I actually don't need to decide if I want to sacrifice jars, to make glue, to make repair kits... or if I want to drink. Because I went to the desert, got a crap ton of sand and now i've designated a forge JUST for making jars.

Again, this is something that could've very easily been remidied with some mild recipe and crafting tweaks. Not a new system. I do not understand this TFP desire to make a completely new system rather than doing minor tweaks.

Dude, I literally quoted that part in my first post as a side argument.

The fact you're willingly ignoring how quoting works is your problem... whatever.  :frusty:

You quoted ONE PART of a conversation.

One bit.

About depleting water blocks.

That's it.

If you go and actually read everything that i've been discussing, it wasn't about that. YOU made it about that.

I'm now going to refer you to something I told you earlier. If you can't stop with the out of context nonsense in order to pick arguments with me, then stop interacting with me. The forum has a lovely block feature. I suggest you either adjust your attitude and actually follow the conversation, or avail yourself of it.

 

[Roland]

In Mod "Undead Legacy" by Subquake, author did not remove jars, but made water a problem that is solved much more interesting. In Undead Legacy the player can draw water from washbasins, toilets, faucets, etc., but there or empty, or is usually a limited amount of water available there, about 1-3 jars. Thus, the player has a lot of empty jars, but no water, but the player can smelt the jars into glass and make windows )

I don't know that looting 1-3 jars of water from all those sources is more interesting than crafting dew collectors and developing a water farm. Are you saying that the bottles could not be refilled? That would be kind of the same thing I guess but still weird since you would have all these bottles but not be able to refill them. If you could refill the bottles in UL then the problem wasn't solved because once you have infinitely re-usable bottles in your inventory the hydration game is over. At least with the A21 changes there is a way to get renewable water but it is going to take time and progression to get there which makes it interesting-- to me at least.

 

[FranticDan]

I don't know that looting 1-3 jars of water from all those sources is more interesting than crafting dew collectors and developing a water farm. Are you saying that the bottles could not be refilled? That would be kind of the same thing I guess but still weird since you would have all these bottles but not be able to refill them. If you could refill the bottles in UL then the problem wasn't solved because once you have infinitely re-usable bottles in your inventory the hydration game is over. At least with the A21 changes there is a way to get renewable water but it is going to take time and progression to get there which makes it interesting-- to me at least.

There are two types of bottles, Jars, which you CANNOT craft and they get used up with molotovs. And plastic, which I think you can craft but are the ones needed for crafting glue, which uses up the bottle.

You CANNOT fill jars from a water source, like a pool, because it is irradiated, therefore, the only way to get water is from filling them from shower heads, faucets, hydrants, toilets, etc. And these blocks mostly only hold up to 3 units of water, eventually you'll run out of POI's with water and will have to resort to melting snow, each block of snow gives 5 snowballs and it takes 5 snowballs to make 1 water

 

[Roland]

And?

Well, that's it. My entire point is that the existence of empty bottles is what allows us to create drinkable water on a scale that invalidates any kind of struggle. But, maybe there is an "and" after all. Perhaps empty bottles is also what allows us to create glue on a scale that invalidates any kind of struggle in the mid to late game. We ALWAYS have enough glue/duct tape to ALWAYS have our best weapon in good repair and never have to make do with backups. We never run out of molotovs and explosives and our weapons all work all horde night long because our scale of production was unrealistically large and too simple to get up and running too quickly.

If you are having to choose between drinking and repair kits by day 22 in the A20 system then for sure you are going to have to make tough choices and possibly have to either go into a horde night with suboptimal preparations or at least be down to the back up weaponry by the end of it. In the long run, glue won't be a problem and you will be back to mass producing stuff that requires it and duct tape but you will need to build your water farm first.

Honestly, this is a change from simplistic to complex which is what everyone claims to want. They didn't dumb things down but added a new workstation that opens up a new type of farming. And really it isn't a whole new system. All they did was add a dew collector that produces pure water and removed empty bottles and they reverted back to requiring a pot to boil water.

 

[Guppycur]

There's no cover up here. People will get to play it once it is released and they can make up their own minds. I've accurately reported how the dew collector works, what has been changed, and that getting pure water is tougher now. Even if you are going to spam explore kitchen after kitchen to find a pot, that is something you didn't need to do before because you would find empty bottles, pure water, and murky water in those same kitchens. Raid five kitchens and you would probably come away with a pot, 4 bottles of pure water, 6 empty bottles, and a couple bottle of murky water. That would be about 12 bottles you could then refill and reboil forever. The things you found in those kitchens would easily set you up to have pure water always on hand for the rest of the game.

In A21 if you raid five kitchens you would probably come away with a pot and 2 bottles of murky water that won't return a jar. So you could take those home and boil them and get two drinks but have no bottles to refill which means you would have to go back out looking for more and not have any equipment for having infinite water supplies for the rest of the game from those five kitchens.

You could spam raid 20 kitchens and come home with a few pots and maybe even 10 or more bottles of murky water but no empty bottles for getting more from the nearby lake and once you drank those 20 bottles you would have nothing left to go and refill and repeat. 

You will have to decide once you play it in your non-biased non-roleplaying fashion if there is any additional challenge or not. I don't think it is challenging per se to stay hydrated since you can always drink murky water. Heck, you could walk over to a city sewer with water in it and slurp up as much as you want with an empty hand anytime and stay hydraded for a health cost. This change does give murky water a larger footprint in the game and it keeps you looking for water since there are no stacks of empty jars that you can refill all at once at any time. You can eventually get to the point of having crates filled with pure water but it is going to be a progression to get to that point and not simply the result of breaking into several kitchens.

I personally like the changes and I am not a crook.

No man, I simply only meant because out of all the gates, we finally have a #watergate.  Nothing more implied.

Very funny logic of "experienced" players."We'll get it on the first day."Yes, because that's how you play and you promote that style of play.Get all the best on the first day.What's the point of that?Develop faster in one game to start another?The process of the game itself is no longer interesting to you?Do you come to enjoy the game or are you engaged in its speedrans?It's right that developers don't always listen to you.You have played this game for so many hours that you are only interested in the constant increase in difficulty.You judge the game by yourself, and the developers take into account the interests of the majority, without constant which TFP support would not exist.And there wouldn't be such big updates every year.Gather all the people who think they know how to do it better than the developers and finally do it.You were given the opportunity to make modifications.You have interesting modifications.So keep changing the game the way you like, but don't touch the vanilla.Any of your global suggestions for changing the game will scare away a large number of players.And there is another good phrase "your expectations are your problems".This game is still in alpha access and we still agree by default with any change to it release, otherwise close and delete, wait for the release.

Oh I know I'm not the target audience; I have a mouse and keyboard. 

I agree with the most of the things except food spoilage. That would be absolutely dumb. You couldnt stack food anymore except canned food and would be forced to buy food even more then you already are which therefore takes away the hunting and gathering natural recources for food even less efficiant. Ppl would end up just simply buying there food and never cook anymore since there would be no point anymore to cook yourself if that food would spoil anyway later.

Naw we have a spoilage mod and it works just fine with stacks.  

 

[Laz Man]

I didn't. The conversation was about them being removed so the player can only find water/use the dew collector so water is more of an issue.

Therefore water blocks being depleted/not depleted, which you brought up, is not relevant.

Honestly, this could've been resolved by just lowering the amount of water murky water gives, increasing the dysentary chance and putting back the requirement to boil water in a cooking pot in the campfire, like it was in A16.

Back then we used to scrounge for every empty can we could just so we didn't have to drink the poop water  Then make cooking pots super rare in loot (so you'd have to find a POI with them just on the countertop) and/or gun for making a forge asap so you can crank out a pot and grill as fast as possible.

Maybe, but how long does that really stretch the water survival challenge?  Pop a vitamin then spam drink all the murks you want.  Change vitamins you say?  Making pots super rare is a tough sell for MP servers.

Not saying your suggestions are not doable but they are not necessarily more fun then progressing towards having a dew collector farm.  Why not have both?  Well having both would diminish the collector to a fluff / convenience option since you wouldn't need it at all.

 

[zztong]

I like the notion of potable water becoming a process and I don't mind it disappearing as loot.

Maybe we could make a "stone age" process for processing water? I think adding another "state" to water helps out.

Murky Water : 8% chance of a debuff.

Filtered Water: 4% chance of a debuff.

Boiled Water: 4% chance of a debuff.

Potable Water : 0% chance of a debuff.

(Numbers can change; I used 8% and 4% as an example.)

Murky to Filtered via a Crude Filter (see below)

Murky to Boiled via a Cookpot (current process - no option to boil a jar)

Filtered to Potable via a Cookpot (current process - no option to boil a jar)

EDIT for Clarification:
Murky (via filtering) to Filtered (via boiling) to Potable
Murky (via boiling) to Boiled
 

Crude Filter:

• Made from 2 Wood, 5 Dirt, 10 Sand.
  
• Introduces the notion that workstations can degrade from use and need to be repaired.
  
• Degrades to broken over 10 uses.
  
• Repaired with 10 Sand.
  
• Capacity: 1 unit of water.
  
• Time Required: 6 game hours per unit of water.
  

Water Filter Helmet Mod:

• Treats Murky Water as Filtered Water.
  
• Treats Boiled Water as Potable Water.
  

Advanced Water Filter Helmet Mod:

• Treats all Water as Potable Water.
  

Purification Process Notes:

• Sand becomes useful in the early game. A new low-level scavenger hunt adds time to the early process.
  
• There's still a long process for making potable water.
  
• I think makes it enough of a process to allow water to be carried from a water source. (Jars, Buckets, whatever)
  

Water Portability Process:

• Change murky water stacking to 10. (10 jars == 1 bucket for the sake of comparison)
  
• Change empty jars stacking to 10. (If you allow empty jars.)
  
• At least with a Vanilla game backpack, this becomes a significant limitation.
  
  Cuts the amount of murky water and glass jars in my inventory to as much as 1/12
  

[*]I would end up doing "water runs" when cooking, which is quite reasonable.

 

[Survager]

See?  Harder without the dew collector, while still making a dew collector cool.  And I didn't even have to remove anything from the game. 

Most likely the reason was to forbid players from using rivers and lakes to extract water, since making water flowable will not work, and everything else is an attempt to justify it... a failed attempt... maybe in the future it will still be finalized, but it can not be left in this form!

 

[zztong]

new storage can be added, for example: early game we could craft an Iced Cooler, made from polymer and snow which when placed could last say 2 real hours

In a cooler, you could do something like use Snowballs as fuel to stave off spoilage. Electricity could power refrigerators late game.

 

[Guppycur]

In a cooler, you could do something like use Snowballs as fuel to stave off spoilage. Electricity could power refrigerators late game.

Yeh there are lots of great spoilage ideas, but they're pushing for gold and by the time we see something here it's already set in stone.  It ain't like it was in the good old days, but then again those days are probably why the game is still in alpha.

I don't blame tfp for their decisions, they gotta do right by them, but it doesn't mean I gotta agree *with* the decisions.  But I also fully acknowledge that not only have I gotten way more than my monies worth with the game, but also I'm not a dev so my voice doesn't, and rightfully shouldn't, matter. 

Thankfully some of the devs had some good forsight and exposed a lot of this stuff to XML and we can change it; even though some newer features don't offer the ease of modding (looking at you, turrets and drones!), there is still a lot of modding that can be done.  And that's entirely thanks to tfp and members of their staff. 

But back on topic?  Losing bottles is just weird. 

 

[NoMan]

Losing bottles is just weird. 

Agree. So is stacking them.

So keep jars in game, but never stackable, full or empty.

This way they still exist but are extremely inefficient to abuse.

You could still take a backpack full of single jars to the river and fill them one at a time for a few days of water, if you want. You enjoy that. I'll be over there setting up my fancy new dew collector farm.

Win/win? 

 

[Guppycur]

And another good and simple idea to make it harder without having to remove something.