PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Trankitas]

When they bring up new stuff, I'm open-minded (this "ancient" word that has been apparently lost in the dust of ages).

This is really hard to find, hopefully the majority of the people have this same approach towards new alphas.

Let's let TFP do their game, we can test it when it releases (alpha21), then make conclusions. 

If you like it: Play it alone, with friends and family, PvP, and be happy.
If you don't: Opt-in for an older alpha or just don't play it anymore until gold, then you can play it again and see how it feels.

 

[JCrook1028]

Apparently I'm an idiot for thinking that paying developers for a game should imply an obligation on the developers to build the game based off of feedback from the buyers.

You said it succinctly.

I paid for the game to take part in the development of it,

No, you paid to have the ability to play the game as THEY made it. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Roland]

Games heavily influenced by communities and mod-makers (taken just from a glance at my steam library and wishlist):

Rust, Scum, Satisfactory, Space Engineers, Eco, Rimworld, Don't Starve, Battlebit, Raft, Project Zomboid, Stranded Deep, Ravenfield, probably hundreds more I don't care to keep writing down to prove a point. 

I assure you that if those games made changes that the majority voted for it was because the community desires aligned with their own. If the devs had felt strongly against whatever popular opinion had won, they would have done what they felt best anyway. Developers have that title because they are the decision makers end of story. If you want to fall for the public relations stunt of an opinion poll that supposedly directs development of the game that's up to you. But I don't believe it for a second.

Besides, it would still result in the same. You feel angry and marginalized because you weren't part of the decision making process. Well if you voted in a poll and didn't gain the majority, you would still feel angry and marginalized. People whose wishes didn't get chosen don't just sit back and say, "I'm glad the democratic process has resulted in a better game. I guess what I wanted wasn't best"

No, they complain that the devs listened to the loud screams of idiots and sold out their vision for the lure of money trying to appeal to the mainstream and fill their pockets with cash and thus ruined their game. Devs can't win with people who are unwilling to go with change. If they listen to their own team then they are horrible people who hate their customers. If they listen to a majority then they are sell outs who just want to attract the majority to their game for cash. lol

 

[Matt115]

I assure you that if those games made changes that the majority voted for it was because the community desires aligned with their own. If the devs had felt strongly against whatever popular opinion had won, they would have done what they felt best anyway. Developers have that title because they are the decision makers end of story. If you want to fall for the public relations stunt of an opinion poll that supposedly directs development of the game that's up to you. But I don't believe it for a second.

Besides, it would still result in the same. You feel angry and marginalized because you weren't part of the decision making process. Well if you voted in a poll and didn't gain the majority, you would still feel angry and marginalized. People whose wishes didn't get chosen don't just sit back and say, "I'm glad the democratic process has resulted in a better game. I guess what I wanted wasn't best"

No, they complain that the devs listened to the loud screams of idiots and sold out their vision for the lure of money trying to appeal to the mainstream and fill their pockets with cash and thus ruined their game. Devs can't win with people who are unwilling to go with change. If they listen to their own team then they are horrible people who hate their customers. If they listen to a majority then they are sell outs who just want to attract the majority to their game for cash. lol

Well i agree with you about that

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I've got to be crazy to jump into the LBL/LBD conversation. Honestly, I'm easy. Both have appeal, as do probably some other approaches.

LBD seems great for things like using weapons, picking locks. I'm not so sure I like it for crafting. How many stone axes do I have to craft and scrap to learn how to make an iron axe? That seems odd. I'd have seen metal tools before the apocalypse. LBD seems like a decent way to slowly improve the quality of what I know to craft.

That can be done with a hybrid of LBD and perks. Like Darkness Falls does it. Crafting and things like SexyRexy, Iron gut and such is done by putting skill points into perks wich are level gated so you can´t put in 5 points into tool crafting at day 2. Action skilly are leveled by using the tool/weapon and do have perks related to them where you need to put points into it, like blunt weapons has pummel pete, where you skill the weapon itself by using it and can get extra advantages by putting points into pummel pete. 

A mix of LBD/LBL sounds like a good idea also. By the looks of what was posted about the LBL system it just seems like certain playstyles will be punished if you don´t go out of your way and do things that are your least favorite part of the game for builders/miners. If that changes i am all in. Restricting the way how to play and i am out and hoping for mods. If mods can´t solve this, it´s time for a new game we can play together that let´s us play however we want.

 

[Jost Amman]

This.

This is why people don't like coming to the forums. I'm not being an "arrogant arse-hole". I'm being polite and discussing. If you don't like that, that's a you problem.

EXCUSE ME??  :shocked:

Are you effing high?? You just called me, along with the rest of this forum, mindless drones / clap-bots fanboys, and you THINK YOU'VE BEEN POLITE??  :nono:

And then, after I obviously react to being insulted, you use MY reaction to stigmatize my "rudeness"?? Are you @%$#ing for real, man?  :loco:

I'm all open to discussion, just don't use words like fanboy, white knight or mindless drone and the such... I'm not the type who likes being insulted and do nothing.

Now, back on topic: I think the upcoming new crafting system is very promising because it sounds FUN!

Yes, fun. That's a parameter many game developers often forget about. I've read many discussions where people were talking about balancing, optimization, design and good game mechanics. But I've learned over the years that it's very rare to find developers like The Fun Pimps, because they're (or try to) true to their name. From my point of view, a lot of the decisions they make, even when they re-write something, is always in the service of finding the most fun option.

People play 7D2D because they have fun. Yes, they also rant about optimization, bugs, CTDs and whatnot, but they still come back because they know the game is fun.

That's my opinion on the game, and why I often find myself aligned with the devs' view. Also, like I said before, I try to be open-minded, and I cut them some slack and don't start bashing them just after they show us a concept until I've put my hands on it. It's called "informed opinion", you know.

 

[Mahnogard]

This is really hard to find, hopefully the majority of the people have this same approach towards new alphas.

Let's let TFP do their game, we can test it when it releases (alpha21), then make conclusions. 

I started playing at the beginning of A16. It only took a couple of alpha cycles for me to realize that my initial kneejerk reaction to any big changes was a waste of energy because those initial impressions had zero relevance to the gameplay experience once it actually dropped and I started playing with whatever new stuff there was. (Well, okay, that first round of leveled loot changes was predictably awkward but it's a distant memory.)

I enjoy the dev diaries because I have learned to read them instead of just doomscrolling. 

 

[Roland]

By the looks of what was posted about the LBL system it just seems like certain playstyles will be punished if you don´t go out of your way and do things that are your least favorite part of the game for builders/miners. If that changes i am all in. Restricting the way how to play and i am out and hoping for mods. If mods can´t solve this, it´s time for a new game we can play together that let´s us play however we want.

So...what holy grail game are we talking about...?

 

[Matt115]

So...what holy grail game are we talking about...?

Newsstand owner simulator XD

 

[Roland]

Newsstand owner simulator XD

From the look of your avatar, that game is way too confining. Plus, I don't like to deal with the news. Do the developers of that newsstand game force me to deal with the news when I what I find fun to do is to search the nearby gutters for bottlecaps?

 

[Matt115]

From the look of your avatar, that game is way too confining. Plus, I don't like to deal with the news. Do the developers of that newsstand game force me to deal with the news when I what I find fun to do is to search the nearby gutters for bottlecaps?

Only bins -  gutters will be added in "You will get  newsstand as inheritance " dlc.  ^^ . You can sell cigarets toys too! just remember that without fresh news what happened in your neightborgood you will lose rep point with "old mamas" faction

 

[Roland]

Only bins -  gutters will be added in "You will get  newsstand as inheritance " dlc.  ^^ . You can sell cigarets toys too! just remember that without fresh news what happened in your neightborgood you will lose rep point with "old mamas" faction

So essentially I'm REQUIRED to deal with the news or I get PUNISHED. That sounds like very poor design forcing me to play a portion of the game I don't enjoy or be gimped.

 

[Matt115]

So essentially I'm REQUIRED to deal with the news or I get PUNISHED. That sounds like very poor design forcing me to play a portion of the game I don't enjoy or be gimped.

This depends what ending you want to get. Sorry this is not a sandbox but hardcore economical RPG! 

 

[Jost Amman]

So essentially I'm REQUIRED to deal with the news or I get PUNISHED. That sounds like very poor design forcing me to play a portion of the game I don't enjoy or be gimped.

Matt knows that if you stay in there long enough, you'll one day become a skeleton!

That's the end-game content for the Newsstand video game.  :rip:

 

[Matt115]

Matt knows that if you stay in there long enough, you'll one day become a skeleton!

That's the end-game content for the Newsstand video game.  :rip:

Yep  Small leak -- there will be "newsstand in afterlife" and in this dlc you have too run your newsstand in afterlife... for eternity! 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland We will see. There is a few. Project Zomboid for example let´s people stay at home and build, farm and cook without any disadvantages if others go out looting. That also works for Conan Exiles. Or Sons of the Forest once it´s released (Assuming it didn´t change too much from the first part). Also Subsistence, but that one still lacks content, but it´s early access also. And surely a few others i haven´t discovered yet.

@Jost Amman You know very well that what @KhaineGB says about the forums is true. You are very active in the steam forums and you have seen exactly that argument a lot of times. People don´t come exactly for that reason and you know it.

 

[KhaineGB]

EXCUSE ME??  :shocked:

Are you effing high?? You just called me, along with the rest of this forum, mindless drones / clap-bots fanboys, and you THINK YOU'VE BEEN POLITE??  :nono:

And then, after I obviously react to being insulted, you use MY reaction to stigmatize my "rudeness"?? Are you @%$#ing for real, man?  :loco:

I'm all open to discussion, just don't use words like fanboy, white knight or mindless drone and the such... I'm not the type who likes being insulted and do nothing.

Am I high? No, but you are.

You know why? Because you're blaming ME for repeating what other people have told me regaridng the perception of this forum. So you know how you're being angry and throwing insults at me? 

Yeah, that's why you're being rude. If you don't like it, go on other social media sites and challenge the people whom i've repeated. Not me. Because I'll just call you out on being rude and impolite since you're "shooting the messenger."

 

[Roland]

Roland We will see. There is a few. Project Zomboid for example let´s people stay at home and build, farm and cook without any disadvantages if others go out looting. That also works for Conan Exiles. Or Sons of the Forest once it´s released (Assuming it didn´t change too much from the first part). Also Subsistence, but that one still lacks content, but it´s early access also. And surely a few others i haven´t discovered yet.

Well then its good that you'll have options available to you if you can't stomach the change.

@Jost Amman You know very well that what @KhaineGB says about the forums is true. You are very active in the steam forums and you have seen exactly that argument a lot of times. People don´t come exactly for that reason and you know it.

I don't feel a bit of sympathy for those people, frankly. If they feel more comfortable posting on Steam then they have an outlet for what they want to say in the way they want to say it and the devs monitor steam so their criticism will still likely get heard.

Honestly, is there anyone who wants this forum to allow the same tone and toxicity level as Steam? Like I said, people post negative reactions to the game all the time here. Just had a few more pop up on the dev diary in fact. You, yourself, posted criticism against how the servers have been divided into regions and your misgivings about the new system. How is it you can post what you do and not get destroyed by all the fanboys or banned by the power mad super moderator? It is because you aren't insulting and toxic in your posting-- even when you are angry-- like whenever you perceived the game was becoming soft on survival elements over the years. If Khaine was 100% right you would never have posted such critical feedback but obviously you've felt safe enough posting your true opinion.

The people who get banned for their toxic behavior and then go to Steam to say this forum doesn't allow any criticism are exactly the people we don't want here and I will continue to get rid of them even if it means their tales make others too nervous to post here. We get new accounts all the time who run the range of praising to ranting and as long as they aren't jerks to other people or completely toxic and libeling the devs they get along just fine.

Khaine's point was that it is too bad that more people don't feel comfortable coming here to post criticism because the devs are only getting one-sided feedback from blindly supportive fans who immediately pounce on and suppress the criticism. He felt this way because he assumed the devs weren't monitoring other social media. But the truth is the devs are getting the praise and the criticism and so Steam and Reddit can continue to be bastions of those who want to post their dislikes in the rudest way possible and castigate anyone they view as a fanboi and this place can be a place where people can post positive or negative reactions to what the devs do while watching the rudeness.

 

[KhaineGB]

@Roland One thing I do wanna say, the people who claim this place is full of yes men and toxic have NO IDEA how nice this forum is.

The game I work for? Holy crap, the forums are WAY, WAY WORSE. There's a reason I stick to my assigned moderation area and let everyone else deal with the rest.

 

[meganoth]

You seem very confident that there are no successful games designed, heavily influenced by their communities.

I was asking a question and even saying I remember having heard about one. I myself have followed only two EA game developments closely till now, 7D2D and Factorio. While Factorio has a stellar reputation for their communication, they posted smallest details, and even code and algorithms sometimes. They also sometimes discussed new features with the community to get feedback (and this may be a good part of what you want), BUT they still kept the final decision on everything to themselves.

A good example was the removal of the pick which was opposed by a lot of players, including important modders.

I know of a few singular events done by other developers to ask the community, but they were always exceptions:

For example one developer who's name I don't remember asked for the next RPG class to be made (but eventually all of them would be made, it was only about the sequence of production)

And the only event I know of, where actually a deeply important question was put before the community was done by Inxile when it asked whether Tides of Numenera should be turn-based or realtime-with-pause.

No question I'm doubtful about it being done by lots of developers. So I'd like to hear of a good example. I'm surprised you could list so many. Did they all do polls about important changes or were they just more open than TFP ?

Games heavily influenced by communities and mod-makers (taken just from a glance at my steam library and wishlist):

Rust, Scum, Satisfactory, Space Engineers, Eco, Rimworld, Don't Starve, Battlebit, Raft, Project Zomboid, Stranded Deep, Ravenfield, probably hundreds more I don't care to keep writing down to prove a point. 

Ok, picking just one of that list as an example because I backed it in kickstarter, can you give examples how the community was involved in Rimworld?

And what point are you trying to prove by the second paragraph? The entire purpose of a poll system is to appeal to the majority of players. You arguing that the devs should do whatever they want and the community should just deal with it, would likely result in the game NOT appealing to as many people as it potentially could. That paragraph literally made no sense.

I'm trying to find out how sincere you are about the polling. And I actually think the question is a really hard to answer question and maybe there is no good answer at all. It is a question every democracy around the world wants an answer to.

As I explained I would not be really comfortable about every game always going to majority tastes, because often I'm part of a minority when it comes to games. Would it not make all games similar if only the majority got their way?

Oh, and a passive-aggressive winky face

Wonderful, not even a smiley is harmless, it must be passive-aggressive!

I get the impression I could have written anything and you would have found incriminating evidence between the lines.