PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Melange]

Has the 3d moddellers gotten confused or something, I am at a loss at how such a error could of been made!

Hmm, were you around when the yucca looked like IRL aloe, and the aloe looked too much like IRL yucca? 

They weren't botanists. And I doubt they're really in tune with how to actually collect dew IRL. So it is, it's essentially a placeholder for a concept on how to collect water in A21. I don't recall the devs ever proclaiming to be factual, they're not The Factual Pimps...

You have made your point, and I don't disagree that the dew collector could have been more realistic.

But no matter what's used to construct it in-game, nor how it looks once Ive built it, seems I am still gonna get dysentary until I have enough of those contraptions at my base. 

 

[Matt115]

<shrug> I'm no dew collector expert so it doesn't bother my immersion. It would be nice for the sake of all the experts in the field that also play this game if they change the model to be more of a dew collector rather than a rain collector but I doubt they will spend the time to rework it. Maybe though...

I really doubt they will make adjustments for biome differences in climate. The dew collection is supposed to be a simple abstraction and the only thing they care about is whether it is open to sky or not. But...this is the first introduction of these and it could be they will develop them further to be somewhat more complex and allow for an upgrade path like some of the other workstations.

There is no popping in or out of existance of glass jars depending on whether they are full or not any more than any other container in the game. You don't seem bothered by the "magic" of bowls that pop in and out of existence depending on whether they have stew in them or not and your immersion seems fine that oil containers, gas containers, and acid containers are nowhere to be found in their empty versions. In every case where an icon shows a container holding some consumable, that container is simply an artisic rendering to show "one unit" of that consumable. Water jars are simply joining in with the rest of the game in this respect and it really doesn't take long to make the adjustment and no longer be bothered by it any more than you are currently bothered by every "magically disappearing" plate that holds a steak and potato dinner. And this concept is not even new to gaming in general as many many games have you consume something and not have an empty container left behind.

As for choices, when one door closes (choosing how to use your glass jars) more open (how to use your murky water, whether to trade health for hydration) and, frankly, if you haven't been swimming in glass jars by the end of the first few days then you are the only one. So the choice of how to divvy up your glass jars for most people is a pretty tame conundrum. Trust me, the new choices opened up by this change are MUCH more interesting and tough.

Finally, let me solve your waste disposal problem for you. Take a stack of empty jars that you don't want and drop them anywhere. They will despawn in about 20 seconds. Solved. Since everything dropped despawns the whole waste disposal challenge is a bit lacking.

There is a greater punishment: A chance for dysentery. I've gotten it a few times since I started testing A21. It is literally a pain in the butt and kills your stamina for 30 minutes. So because of this I find myself cooking more goldenrod tea which I rarely did in the past. In fact I can't remember the last time I got dysentery pre A21. It sounds like you even forgot that dysentery exists since you didn't list it as one of the penalties and it isn't new to A21. Its been around forever but always something that nobody ever experienced because of the existence of glass jars making access to good water so trivial from the very start. Now access to all the murky water you want is trivial. You can drink right from a source. You find murky water in all water related containers (instead of jars and/or good water). Now I drink murky water a lot out of necessity and dysentery finally has a presence in the game.

What you call mistakes and critical errors due to your expertise and care about water collection techniques, many others will not even blink an eye and accept the basic abstraction of the process. You want it to be more sim-like which is admirable but taking the game to sim-like lengths is exactly what modding is for. The problem is not universal. Most people won't even register the wrongness of the dew collectors and many others who do won't care because they just want the water when it comes down to it and the model looks cool on your base once it is placed. As for respecting the money you have paid, I know the devs do and in my opinion what they have offered more than compensates for the amount paid. As players we should look at the number of hours of entertainment we have gained for how much we paid and respect that.

I paid $30 for this game during the Christmas sale of 2013 and I feel more than compensated for the thousands of hours I've played. These days the game goes for less than $10 when on sale and people are still getting thousands of hours. I, personally, don't think an inaccurate dew collector erases all of that. If they do more research and decide to make it appear more realistic then that would be great. But if they don't, I disagree that that is somehow disrespecting of what everyone paid for the game.

Well i will start from begining. price of game don't mean that incorrect doesn't matter. Okay picking devs here is pointless because a lot of things are incorrect like guns. So we can say that is "post apo" style.  But "entertaiment" mean nothing. If this would be a true 5 stars resturant could go bankcrupcy very fast because fast food is tasty too.

I undestand simplication because gameplay - carry car in pocket etc. But  "entertaiment" is just weak excuse. For many years i see more and more "don't care about immersion because X" in most games.

First i think it begins when WW2 MP fps get option too choice weapon what your want no matter which faction you choice because " freedom and more fun to create build".

Now in Cod you have so strange thing in Campain like STG44 used by Japanish soldiers in 1940. And people still defence this because "In cod MP is most important" or " you < rude words> who cares because is fun".

i will remind a meme:

This is just sad as hell.

At least some game studios care about even small details in fantasy games : In plague tale you have thief girl Melie. When she is doing "job" he waring hood and... shoes. Yes this sounds strange but in medieval period it was logical that poor people traveled mostly barefoot because shoes were expensive. 

In NZA 1&2 you have occult zombie during ww2 but....  most WW2 thing like - where bunkers are set, eq etc. are pretty correct. Yes most of assets were reused from Sniper Elite but still when they placed them is important too.

So - Yes. This is small detail so it doesn't mean too much because well setting but still - details are so important. That's why i for some time don't fell any satisfaction playing most games. Well i see describtion - "realistic enviroment of X period!" and then i get a rly big historical or logical mistake. So - "fun" or "entertaiment" is overused argument because it's hard to counter because no matter person always can say "if you don't play for fun, find another game lol". 

I don't stick TFP about so small details because nothing about "realism" etc  writen in 7DTD description so i respect that. But "price" or "fun" in not good argument. Ofc - bigger price mean bigger price but some things don't depends on price - MP40 if it's not "very alternative reality like rise of triad" should have 32 bullets in mags, samurais should use katana naginata or bow not claymore or morgenstein (  this like a cube with ball on chain) or  that street urchin will not wearing this same clothes like son of noble in castle. 

Call to arms is much cheaper that company of heroes 3 but looks much more realistic and don't looks like... 10 yo kid playing with toy soldiers. So this is a prove that can be done even if you don't have budget like AAA company. 

 

[sillls]

Just so you know.  Chickens and rabbits are the fast food of 7D2D.   

 

[Melange]

For me, its a mixed bag. Early game in co-op play, I generally stay at the base location and build. The other members go out and loot. When they return, they have labelled storage to put their bounty, maybe some cooked food and drink. And I get to read the extra magazines.  Maybe they bring a better quality tool or primary weapon too. During the day I'll harvest stone and clay, craft cobblestone and then upgrade the weakest parts of our base. As our abilities progress, I see to it that forges are fed, food is prepared, and we're making concrete mix. And I'm the one upgrading the blocks. So' I don't feel left out at all. Sure, their loot stage may grow and their XP exceeds mine. Sometimes I do mining, and making bundles (if I know the perk) does give a nice XP boost. At least this gives a semblance of improving base safety and the organization of loot. Or I could go out and loot with them early game. But in the long run, someone has to be Den Mother and strive for order on the homefront. The warrior is generally not a gardener.

Once established, we all go out together. I usually allow the 'looters' to open the good loot chests because they will get the better items. And they'll give me some. It is cooperative play, not competetive play.

Later on, we're all kitted out with the best armor, tools and weapons. Because we worked together, by division of labor, to achieve this. Then we all share in the rush of Tier5 poi's and horde night. Yeah, maybe their XP and Loot numbers might be bigger than mine...so what? 

 

[Roland]

Just so you know.  Chickens and rabbits are the fast food of 7D2D.   

That makes wolves Door Dash....

 

[Diragor]

I am severely disappointed that none of the figures for these ''probabilities'' were not listed, behavior typical of a statician.

The whole dew collecting affair is abit abysmal. On the one hand you have the functionality of the dew collector. Then on the other you have what is basically a rain collector visually. Has the 3d moddellers gotten confused or something, I am at a loss at how such a error could of been made! As the part of the fibre, which is meant to collect the water that is in gaseous form just drips onto some ropes. That will never make its way into the tank for the player to use. For me, this is immersion breaking and also demonstrates a lack of research into the area of dew collecting. Essentially you have a mechanic that is only explicable by magic. Dew collecting is well researched and many examples of commercial dew collectors can be found online. Here is some paper on dew collection should you wish to learn a little more. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40899-015-0038-z

I have seen from some videos, that the influencing factors on dew collecting - that being if it is indoors or not and time variance. This is too simple, as by the sounds of it you will be aquire the same yields, in frozen regions to deserts and inbetween, if this is the case then this is poorly moddeled in game and requires remedy. Look on the artical, it is only a couple of simple equations - surely not that hard to input into the game.

If we have this sort of dew collector, could we have some active variety too? As that would make for some progression with advanced dew collectors.

On the note of glass jars being taken away, this is not good at all! As this in essence robs the player of the chance to make choices - to use or to scrap the item for resources. As this would teach the player to be careful and to make do with what they had. The removal is perplexing, as I have never gained extra-ordinary amounts of glass from this, but it was handy to do. The fact that glass jars will not pop in and out of existence based off of the fact if liquid is present too is cheapening the experince. Another example of magic in the game... This also means that by removing problems (that of waste and disposal if people dont want it) is taken away and makes the game in a sense with less struggles. If the game intends to have serious resource management, this is not the way to go about it. Glassware has been around for a very long time in human history, I dont see why it should be removed from this game. I have a strong connection to glassware, as a collector. Though this doesnt taint my view, from a gameplay perspective.

As well, drinking out of water, I have heard it being compared to eating those dodgey sandwiches - though I feel there should be greater punishment from drinking from rivers, as losing a little bit of health only to regain it is not satisfactory. Considering that after a world war, and the uses of all sorts of nasty weapons, plus infections. Would you dare to drink open water sources?? I say you should get infected from drinking the water.

No, I do not hope to have modders solve this problem either, as I believe in games being in a presentable state that they shouldnt require mods to address such problems. After all, we pay good money to play our games and the makers should respect that.

Ohh no they offend your immersion mimimi. Talking about magic and unrealism because of dew collector, but you never cry about carrying 45 Stacks of 6000 Stone (Even more unrealistic when you read the right book and create 5*6000 Stacks) Who cares about super, ultra, mega realism. It's a game stop whining so much about a game.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

It tells me that both vanilla farming exists and a modified version of farming exists. That means players have a choice of two types of farming so that those who do like vanilla can play that way and those who like the modified version can play that way and nobody has to go without the type of farming they enjoy. As someone who is angry about the removal of features of the game, it surprises me that you would have them remove the current farming and replace it with the version you personally enjoy. Wouldn't it be better to have both versions available to give players options?

LBD is available via mods. Farming in the bare ground is available via mods. This is something to celebrate and thank both the creative mod authors and TFP. For those who really really love a particular mod and can't ever see themselves playing any other way, it might seem like a cop out that TFP didn't go far enough themselves and relied on a modder to do the work. But for someone who doesn't like that particular mod and might try it out but then decide it isn't for them, it might seem like a godsend that TFP kept their own version.

For those who hate all currently available versions of farming, that is what the modding request subforum is for. Spell out your dream version of farming and who knows? Maybe it will inspire someone with modding skills to take it on and do it.

You can't help being dishonest and misrepresentative can you?

I distinctly remember discussing at a point previous exactly the option to have both - nomadic wild planting for roaming players, and box plot farming for an integrated decorative yet functional setup 

Don't try that with me, sir. You won't get away with it. Neither will you find a stronger proponent of more choice than me.

I have never suggested the developers remove a feature entirely; that isn't ridiculous, without suggesting alterations or alternative options; wherever non-modded possible alternatives are feasible, and especially never to spite other people out of a particular playstyle. Ever. 

I want players to be able to enjoy a range of options, not limitations.

Some examples of the topics of my objections, and relevant suggestions:

- Farming.

Adjusted system (perks and harvest) - and the option of both wild planting and box planting.

- Character development.

Combination of Learn by Doing (Mining, stamina exercise etc) and Learn by Looting (Schematic unlocks) for a more sensible and tempered progression.

- Zombie digging.

Slider options to turn this on or off (Via disabling downward attack damage if animations cannot be isolated and disabled) for those who wish to avoid bloodmoons dynamically without tampering with options.

The fact you can mod is irrelevant. My discussion is focused primarily on vanilla play with reference to mods to demonstrate that certain things are still possible without necessarily messing up the game, and employed to make a particular point.

If you aren't going to engage honestly you can take a hike. My position is clear - more options for a diversified array of playstyles, and not limitatations and/or complete removals (whether or not these  hypothetical removals are to spite someone out of something.) The examples above are just a handful of examples off the top of my head.

As a sidenote, disappointed about some of the developers decisions? Yes.

Angry? No.

Annoyed at others objecting to more options as opposed to less? You better believe it

 

[Jost Amman]

Annoyed at others objecting to more options as opposed to less? You better believe it

People often think that more options is always better. I disagree.

I hate those games where the devs have no vision of how their vanilla game should play, so they give you 100 options you can turn on/off or choose numbers from 0 to 100, only to end up with a totally random and unbalanced game.

Do you think that allowing players to have both types of farming won't impact food balancing? It will.

How do you propose to solve that issue? If you can easily farm anywhere just by having a hoe, you can start an unlimited farm on day one as soon as you have some seeds.

At least with the boxes, you need to gather a substantial amount of materials that are not very easy to come by.

Mods ARE the solution. The game has taken a different direction after the devs evaluated that was for the best, both from a gameplay and a technical level perspective (reasons and stuff).

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

People often think that more options is always better. I disagree.

I hate those games where the devs have no vision of how their vanilla game should play, so they give you 100 options you can turn on/off or choose numbers from 0 to 100, only to end up with a totally random and unbalanced game.

Do you think that allowing players to have both types of farming won't impact food balancing? It will.

How do you propose to solve that issue? If you can easily farm anywhere just by having a hoe, you can start an unlimited farm on day one as soon as you have some seeds.

At least with the boxes, you need to gather a substantial amount of materials that are not very easy to come by.

Mods ARE the solution. The game has taken a different direction after the devs evaluated that was for the best, both from a gameplay and a technical level perspective (reasons and stuff).

It would be insulting to point out the flaws in what you've just written, Jost.

I suggest a few moments of reflection or wait for someone else to take you to task on your reasoning. Though if you insist, I'd be more than happy to point the issues out.

 

[Jost Amman]

It would be insulting to point out the flaws in what you've just written, Jost.

I suggest a few moments of reflection or wait for someone else to take you to task on your reasoning. Though if you insist, I'd be more than happy to point the issues out.

Unlike you, I'm not ashamed at being found wrong, and I know sometimes I can be wrong.

That's how you progress in life, by confronting your thoughts and opinions with others.

So please, insult me. I will try to endure and get better. 

 

[beerfly]

So please, insult me. 

Noob 

 

[BFT2020]

- Character development.

Combination of Learn by Doing (Mining, stamina exercise etc) and Learn by Looting (Schematic unlocks) for a more sensible and tempered progression.

Couple of points.

TFP have already stated that they are not going back to LBD.  Just because people keep asking for it is not going to change their mind about it, especially since they are trying to release the final game over the next 2-3 development cycles.  Unless they changed their mind already to go back to LBD, I don't see this happening.

In addition, this is not something you can just add to the game as an option.  Turning things on or off by a slider (zombie spawns, bloodmoon) - sure.  Changing how certain aspects of the game interact with others (loot abundance, zombie damage, player damage, block damage, blood moon frequency) via a global variable tweak - sure.  Changing out a core mechanic of the game via source code changes (changing from the progression system in A20/A21 to a hybrid system bringing back LBD) - not so easy to do.  Mods that bring back LDB rewrite portions of the source code and make changes to the xml files in order to do that.  They can do that since they are rewriting some of the source code to remove unwanted game mechanic to put in their preferred game mechanic - Not something a lot of game developers want to do unless they planned for it at the beginning of the game development cycle.

 

[doughphunghus]

That would be amazing if you could make an empty picture frame and add your own picture.. from the i-net or just a screenshot/picture taken in 7dtd game itself.  

Like an interactable picture frame. press E, choose different picture to portray from your steam 7d library or something.

Yeah. I would love to just take screenshots of the game (like nature shots/mountains/my character in front of a bear/etc) and have them be in random houses. The scaling down of the pic would likely make it blurry enough to look “real ish”, and the ease of adding new pics would likely spawn a community pack of curated art.

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Ohh no they offend your immersion mimimi. Talking about magic and unrealism because of dew collector, but you never cry about carrying 45 Stacks of 6000 Stone (Even more unrealistic when you read the right book and create 5*6000 Stacks) Who cares about super, ultra, mega realism. It's a game stop whining so much about a game.

Here’s my point about extreme realism craving.

If you want realism the game should come with one life to play. You die and the steam key is inactivated and the game can no longer be played.

buy another key if you want to play again. That’s a realistic and painful death penalty. Next step in realism would be sending a hot squad to your house…

Realism can be taken too far, nitpicking about realism is usually taken too far. 
The dew collector is probably a unity asset and honestly who cares.

 

[zztong]

And what if there is temporarily no Internet and steam will be offline?

That was my first thought too, but I assume the game would download and cache the image, just like any image built into the game. The question would then be, what do you show if you have just started a new game and the image is not available, or is no longer available? I think you'd default back to the game's built-in images until such time as you fire up the game and the image is available for download. After that, you've got a local copy.

 

[Jost Amman]

That was my first thought too, but I assume the game would download and cache the image, just like any image built into the game. The question would then be, what do you show if you have just started a new game and the image is not available, or is no longer available? I think you'd default back to the game's built-in images until such time as you fire up the game and the image is available for download. After that, you've got a local copy.

Genius!  :boom:

 

[JCrook1028]

And what if there is temporarily no Internet and steam will be offline?

Unless I'm mistaken the game would shut down when Steam did anyway so............ you wouldn't be playing at all?

 

[Syphon583]

Picture frames are a waste of memory/asset space, IMO, if done that way.

They should do like DF where you can put a picture URL in a frame, and it'll display the picture from the internet.

Are you worried about performance here? Because loading an asset that is saved on a local drive will ALWAYS be faster than pulling something from the internet. And just because you're pulling something from the internet, it doesn't mean you're not saving anything. Those images would be temporarily saved to a cache file. Also, the idea of letting the game choose random images for the frames is cool, but is there a source of truth? How do they guarantee the content and quality of the images?

I haven't played DF personally, so I'm just not sure how it works. I'm assuming this feature is just for player-made picture frames where they have control over what image is loaded.

 

[mstdv inc]

Unless I'm mistaken the game would shut down when Steam did anyway so............ you wouldn't be playing at all?

If for some reason there is no Internet, steam goes offline and allows you to run all games that do not require a permanent Internet connection.You will be able to play, but there will be no scoring of game time, achievements, etc.I was faced with such a situation last week and steam let me into the game.But Epic Games services said they didn't want to work without the Internet

 

[Roland]

You can't help being dishonest and misrepresentative can you?

I'm being straight with you as promised. No joking or anything. What I stated is truth as I see it. You can call me a liar but then you are failing to abide by the standard YOU insisted discourse should be maintained at. 

The fact you can mod is irrelevant.

No. It is 100% relevant for two reasons. First, the developers designed the game to be modified by the community. Secondly, there will never be another option other than what we have now for farming in the vanilla game. So modding is your only shot at having options in regards to farming. Let me say that again. Modding is your only chance to have a different version of farming than we currently have.

If you aren't going to engage honestly you can take a hike.

I'm not going anywhere and I am being brutally honest. If you don't accept the truth as I have outlined it then there is nothing I can say other than, wait and see and you will see that when the devs wrap up the game and it is done farming will be via farm plots and to do otherwise you will have to load a mod and then you will finally have to concede that I was always telling the truth. Until then, I guess you will have to live in denial.