PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow
- Thread starter meilodasreh
- Start date
Then let me explain that stupidity. All games except walking sims and cookie clickers give the player challenges to overcome. The only other sources of pleasure the player can derive from a game are graphics/sound, story and what is commonly called Instant Cratification. Those first two can be provided by movies as well, but unique to games are the challenges that directly involve the player by forcing him to react in meaningful ways.
When a game developer makes something more difficult or not automatic or trivial to attain for the player may looks like he his working **against** the player. But in general players need those challenges to have prolonged fun with the game. A change to make something more difficult or dangerous for the player is in that way never a player-hostile change.
Now it depends how you meant that "player-hostile". If you meant it as "this change works against the player and is therefore hostile to the player" and this is how I read it, then my comment is spot on.
If you instead meant "player-hostile change" as a simple alias for "unfun change" and would have called something that makes say higher-tier weapons easier to get or animals easier to shoot as "player-hostile" too then yes, my reply does not fit. But then you invited this by using language that is easy to misinterpret.
The return of farming is seed+food. Since food can be and usually some of it has to be converted back into seeds it is two sides of the same coin.
Seed chance and food return was carefully balanced so that you get a surplus on average starting at LotL1, but there is still a random chance for some food types to have a bad harvest and getting scarce making you react. For example through cooking of different and maybe even lesser foods you still have the ingredients for, or searching for the missing seeds or searching for ingredients or seeds that help you make different foods for a while.
This is also why I don't understand players who keep seeds until they are at LotL3. They practically wait until farming is at its most boring and reduced to a grind.
PS: IMHO realism had a very small part in deciding how to change farming and driving for TFP. They naturally will take any change that makes the game more realistic as a nice bonus on top, but as they said multiple times their main reason for any change is "is it more fun?". ..
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An accountant would point out that food is a lot more worth to you at the start of the game (as it is harder to come by). As soon as you are more mobile (minibike or motorcycle) the food value (for you) drops strongly as you can scavenge and buy a lot more food. Sort of the built-in inflation because of supply and demand.
So 0.5 food at LOTL0 or 1.5 food at LOT1 on average could be more worth to you at the start of the game as 3.5 food from a seed at day 30.
By the way, if anyone thinks LOTL1 is useless at the start of the game because he doesn't start a farm early should also take into account that even without a farm you get double the food from wild plants as well. I usually invest one of the 4 points I get from the initial quest into LOTL1. Each potato or corn farm is simply giving you twice as much, that seems worth it alone.
Roland
Moderator
Since you insist on taking everyone at the most literal and to-the-letter interpretation let me help you out so you don't keep getting confused by perceived inconsistencies and contradictions.
First, you have to realize that the dev streams are not scripted. Nobody goes through and fact checks everything and edits a script for the presenters to say. They are just speaking from the heart and so their words are not like contracts that should be analyzed and taken to be in stone. And before you suggest that they should, don't waste your breath because they won't. They are perfectly fine with the current level of "professional quality" of their streams.
The damage change for vehicles was for added realism but not solely for that reason and not to the degree of making vehicle use and repair simulation level realism. It is still very arcade-level abstraction but definitely has more realistic features than it previously did. It is more realistic for a car to be able to be used as a weapon against zombies and that it will take damage doing so. It is more realistic for a vehicle to take more damage when going off road than when staying on the road. It is less abstract and a bit more realistic to have repair kits only repair some of the damage rather than all of it and based on a player's grease monkey skill have a repair kit be able to repair more. This granularity in repair and the tie-in to the grease monkey skill makes the process feel more realistic than it did.
Does that mean the pimps are going for "REALISM"? Not at all. They are still the Fun Pimps and fun is their first priority and they obviously don't care about making the game into a simulation. However, within the realm of where the game is at, aspects can be tuned to be a bit more realistic or a bit more abstracted and streamlined and they will often make those choices.
Vehicles and vehicle repair is definitely not realistically represented in this game. But A21 does make things a bit more realistic than A20 was in that regard even though as a whole it is still miles away from actually being fully realistic.
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jorbascrumps
New member
Riamus
Well-known member
Everyone has their own preferences but I'm not really sure I understand this statement. How is farming more boring or more of a grind at LotL3? It'd say it is just as equally boring at any level. I certainly don't see any fun in farming. I don't mind doing it but it isn't what I'd ever consider anything other than boring and there isn't any change between LotL levels other than yield so it can't really be more or less fun as far as I can see. And as far as being a grind, if you're constantly having to make seeds just to get anywhere, that feels far more of a grind than making fewer seeds and always having crops left, even if few sometimes. Beyond that reason, it again doesn't change anything but yield, so how could the grind be worse? I mean, I suppose that by the time you are LotL3 you might have a larger "farm" and so it takes longer. If that's what you mean, then I'd agree with that part. It's why I don't make it too large.This is also why I don't understand players who keep seeds until they are at LotL3. They practically wait until farming is at its most boring and reduced to a grind.
It is a fair point that the food is more useful at lower levels as you have less. But I have far more useful places to put points that offer more value to me than LotL. But that is just up to each person what they consider more important to them. I don't play at reduced loot and consider perks to improve loot, including from mining and scavenging, to be worthwhile. I also play with traders and quests and I like having more choice in quest rewards, so that is also important to me. And I hate dealing with broken legs as they take forever to heal even with a cast that I'll always work to max parkour right away. All of those will all give me more in a financial sense than farming ever will and if I absolutely had to, I could buy food thanks to those things, though that's rare.
You're also right that having the perks improves gathering of food in the wild. That can be very helpful and give you plenty of seeds for farming. But I usually don't bother gathering from the wild like that, especially not before LotL3 as I again know I'll get more if I wait and since I don't need it right away, I don't mind waiting. Now, if it were a quest POI, then I do tend to grab the crops since it'll reset them and so it doesn't feel like I'm wasting them.
I do know that if you are gathering crops from the wild that you can make a lot of food from farming even unperked and definitely at LotL1. But it still feels like I'm wasting my time when I know I'll get far more out of my time and effort after hitting LotL3. As I said, farming isn't a fun thing for me and so I don't want to do it any more than necessary. If I tend to only get a handful of stuff after crafting seeds, then the time spent planting and harvesting and crafting seeds just to plant again feels like a waste of my time even if I do have something to show for it. If I can come out of it with a good amount of crops, then it's at least worth my time. Again, it's just my opinion on farming and what perks have value for me that makes me feel this way. Others who enjoy farming or consider LotL to have more value for them than perks that improve loot or those that improve fighting ability are probably going to look at it differently.
BFT2020
Well-known member
One point in LoTL at the beginning is a solid investment. At that point, I start to harvest crops out in the wild, make farm plants, and plant any seeds I find. However, I typically don't convert crops into seeds at that point as I make use of all the food I harvested. Typically at level 2 of LoTL I would convert it.
Beginning is within the first week (as I don't have the starter quests to give me free 4 perk points). However, I see the point spent in LoTL at Level 1 is a long term investment that pays off once I get to mid and late game and able to craft the higher tier meals.
Beginning is within the first week (as I don't have the starter quests to give me free 4 perk points). However, I see the point spent in LoTL at Level 1 is a long term investment that pays off once I get to mid and late game and able to craft the higher tier meals.
Aldranon
New member
Once you can make a pipe rifle you should be able to kill 80-90% of all chickens and rabbit that pause on a road. (Any scope attachment boosts that to near 100% with off-road shots easier)
Again, for me, that is so much more satisfying than farming. Mid+ game, hunting "Big Game" in the snow biome is one of the most rewarding things for me. The element of danger is icing on the cake.
Again, for me, that is so much more satisfying than farming. Mid+ game, hunting "Big Game" in the snow biome is one of the most rewarding things for me. The element of danger is icing on the cake.
Riamus
Well-known member
For cooking, you'll usually use corn, potatoes and mushrooms more than anything else so having enough plots of each is a good start. Mushrooms are easy because you can place them anywhere - I usually place them on the side of the plots to keep things contained. I'd say at least around 6 of each for 1-2 people is a good low end value at LotL3 - add a few more for lower levels of LotL. More will of course make things easier and if you have the space and want to spend the time on a larger "farm" then it's a good option.
Not really anything else to say for farming. It isn't really designed where there's any real strategy involved in it that you might be able to get tips on. More skill and more plots are really the only ways to improve beyond just planting crops you'll use and not ones you won't.
Yeah, but I get so much meat without hunting just by killing animals that attack me that the only time I ever feel the need to purposely go out hunting is if I am not getting enough animal fat to cook with. I always end up with many stacks of meat without ever going hunting. What I need are the vegetables for cooking the good food that lasts longer. That and cans, especially peas, for doing the same.Once you can make a pipe rifle you should be able to kill 80-90% of all chickens and rabbit that pause on a road. (Any scope attachment boosts that to near 100% with off-road shots easier)
Again, for me, that is so much more satisfying than farming. Mid+ game, hunting "Big Game" in the snow biome is one of the most rewarding things for me. The element of danger is icing on the cake.
I am not saying it isn't a grind. I am just saying there is **also** an element of chance with Lotl1 where you can be surprised by an especially bad harvest. And then you may have to make a small decision whether to just keep waiting for that food type to be available again or maybe switch to a new dish for some time that does not depend on that food type. It might make you check out recipes again, which ones you can do and which ones are wasteful with the food type you have only a few of. All this isn't much but at least it is there, on top of the grind.
(And TFP could increase the meaningful decisions if they changed some of the recipes, i.e. so it isn't always 2 corn and 2 potatos for all the higher tier foods. For example have some potato recipe better than grilled potato that uses 1 less corn or even no corn)
If you are always playing Fortitude then that is a valid approach as you reach LotL3 relatively soon. I tend to spec into different attributes and at the time I would get LotL3 the game would have been in its last legs already and I definitely don't need a farm anymore.
Most if not all potato and corn fields are in quest POIs and every town has them. I don't see any reason saving them up.
If you are using LotL1 just to farm wild crops nobody is forcing you to make seeds out of them. That was the point of my remark, you can get lots of food just by gathering crops and then Lotl1 is a cheap way to double your result.
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Riamus
Well-known member
I think the main thing for me is that crops aren't much use right away as I can't really make anything with them until later anyhow. By the time I can cook stuff with the crops, I can generally also get LotL up to 3. It certainly isn't early game but as I said, I'm not cooking stuff with crops early game either as I am not going to put points into cooking right away. I can live off cans of pears and cat food and chicken that can't be used for cooking, not to mention just grilling meat in the early game without much trouble. The constant eating when doing that is annoying but I'd rather my points go into weapons and looting before worrying about food.
Javabean867
Well-known member
I recommend building up to 10 plots for each crop if you are playing by yourself. I'd probably feel comfortable adding 5 plots per person after that. the rng seems to work out well. Oh also, harvest all corpses early on. they have raw meat and nitrate, which are essential for making farm plots.
get 1 or 2 levels in master chef, if you are specing more heavily into str, then by all means get more levels in that. The higher end foods are crazy good.
Make sure to communicate with your team about bringing back canned goods. I'd then have storage containers for ready to eat foods, that you put finished meals, and canned goods that do not have recipes. Your team should bring back all seeds they find.
grab all of your seeds and veggies before you harvest. Make enough seeds to replant. and off you go.
Stranded_Napkin
New member
I would when he's as comedic as Christian Bale growling like he's fighting off rabies.
Sounds good, doesn't work. How much veggies does each crop drop? 4-6 I guess (correct me if I'm mistaken). In case of corn or potatoes, it might work, but not very rewarding, as after crafting the right amount of seeds, you have almost nothing to cook. And if you try to plant super corn, which is pretty rare itself, you have to choose between replanting and crafting moonshine/sauce/learning elixir most of the time. A couple of updates/years ago, farming was more rewarding in this matter.
Riamus
Well-known member
It works fine. You get a seed about 50% of the time with LotL3. If you get the seed, you don't have to craft one, which means you get 6 crops from the plant to cook with. If you don't get the seed, you get 1 from the plant to cook with after crafting the seed. So on average, you'll end up with around 3.5 crops in profit per plant. If you plant 10 of that plant (a nice number to work with for an example), then that's 35 crops in profit on average per harvest. That's not bad. This is also true for super corn, which you probably wouldn't be using anywhere near as much of as other crops so wouldn't need to plant so many of. Also, if you're LotL3, the rarity of super corn isn't an issue anymore. You'll always make a profit of at least one plant while still having a seed. If you don't use the seeds immediately and instead craft everything into seeds and plant them all until you have a decent number of plants, you'll never have to worry about it being rare as you'll easily have stacks of it in storage. A single seed at LotL3 will eventually become an entire farm of that one thing if you keep crafting everything into seeds and planting them. You'll never run out. And once you have as many plants as you want, you just always replant the same number of each plant and anything left over can be used for cooking. Yes. sometimes you'll end up with bad RNG and have very little to show for it but other times you'll have great RNG and end up with a lot to show for it. It really does work fine and it doesn't take long at all to have so many vegetables in storage that you can actually stop farming and not run out of vegetables to cook with for a very long time. We certainly don't need more.
zztong
Well-known member
I wouldn't say farming is any more exciting early on. The greatest investment of time is scavenging the materials to make Farm Plots. Farming is basically two clicks -- plant a seed and harvest the crops. I don't usually have a Farm Plot for a while, which is likely a choice I'm making not to carry that loot in the early game given my limited carrying capacity.
Spitballing here -- maybe if I could grow food in dirt -- but it comes with more risk of a poor harvest -- I might plant a seed early in the game.
Sorry for the quibble -- An economist. I suggest picking one that is into game theory. I'd love to read the resulting paper.
Of course, I'm still running on A20, and food isn't rare so I can afford to save farm produce -- and the means of production for farm produce -- until later when I'm higher level. At higher level not only do I need the better food, but I'll be able to make many more farm plots and I'm more likely to be able to cook the harvest. In my mind, I get a greater reward from saving it. I certainly didn't suffer from not using it earlier.
Early on (again A20) canned food and meat are plentiful and able to cover any stamina/health issues I have.
Spitballing here -- it would be possible for animals to drop "diseased meat" instead of "raw meat" some times. That is, maybe about half of the animals don't drop usable meat.
I see what you're saying, but I don't find that element of chance to be noteworthy. It a chance with no real consequence, or at least that's my view of it.
I run into that too. I typically invest in the first level of cooking at the start, but then focus on perks that help me assault POIs. The loot from POIs seems to be the planned source of food and water, so I'm usually in good shape.
Spitballing here -- I think food/drink would be more interesting if POIs didn't offer it up as loot. To me, humans would have long since consumed the canned food and potable water. Any remaining water would have evaporated or gone bad. Thus, the place to find food and water would be the wilderness. The end effect is you need POIs for technology but you need to be outside to live. I think that's an interesting dynamic, but I understand that's not where TFP is going, and that's cool too.
At least for A20 early crops can be very useful. Since you find recipes randomly there is always a chance for you being able to cook advanced recipes. And if you spec into STRENGTH and put points into Master Chef early then you also have advanced recipes relatively early in your game. Note I am just speaking generally. The game offers different solutions for some problems and food is no exception. You can get food from multiple sources and if other sources are sufficient then obviously there is no need for points into LotL. And usually veteran players have much less problems with food than novice players in early game.