PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

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Gronal said:
Laz Man is giving out information! Quick everyone dogpile them.
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Well sure. Roland seemed to be hunting for news.

I'd love to geek out over RWG and POI stuff. If we were playing one of those "If you could invite 4 people to a dinner party, who would they be and why" games with a TFP slant, I'd be torn trying to decide between the RWG devs, the POI team, or some blend of the two.

 
zztong said:
Well sure. Roland seemed to be hunting for news.

I'd love to geek out over RWG and POI stuff. If we were playing one of those "If you could invite 4 people to a dinner party, who would they be and why" games with a TFP slant, I'd be torn trying to decide between the RWG devs, the POI team, or some blend of the two.
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Well, obviously some blend of the two so you can get information about everything!  Lol.

I would definitely like to see more tiles and parts to help each game and town look different.

 
Riamus said:
I would definitely like to see more tiles and parts to help each game and town look different.
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Heh, now I'm in a mood to talk RWG, Tiles, Parts.

With POIs folks kind of like memorable POIs. With Tiles, being memorable seems to contribute to a Flintstones/Bedrock feeling where you keep passing the same few background items again and again. For instance:

  • The dogleg around the pond on rwg_tile_rural_straight
  • The roundabout on rwg_tile_residential_intersection
  • The road loop on rwg_tile_rural_countryresidential_cap
  • The bridge on rwg_tile_downtown_interesection_02
  • The tower on rwg_tile_downtown_straight
Parts offer an opportunity to disguise the dogleg/pond, the roundabout, and tower. Maybe the bridge too, but that might be an awkward fit.

In contrast, while I'll bet many people remember the road construction that can appear on rwg_tile_downtown_intersection, since it only appears 40% of the time, I'll bet those people don't always recognize the tile itself being repeated.

The human brain is really good at patterns so we're probably doomed never to have "enough" variety, but I think extensive use of Parts can mess with the brain for a bit longer.

 
zztong said:
Heh, now I'm in a mood to talk RWG, Tiles, Parts.

With POIs folks kind of like memorable POIs. With Tiles, being memorable seems to contribute to a Flintstones/Bedrock feeling where you keep passing the same few background items again and again. For instance:

  • The dogleg around the pond on rwg_tile_rural_straight
  • The roundabout on rwg_tile_residential_intersection
  • The road loop on rwg_tile_rural_countryresidential_cap
  • The bridge on rwg_tile_downtown_interesection_02
  • The tower on rwg_tile_downtown_straight
Parts offer an opportunity to disguise the dogleg/pond, the roundabout, and tower. Maybe the bridge too, but that might be an awkward fit.

In contrast, while I'll bet many people remember the road construction that can appear on rwg_tile_downtown_intersection, since it only appears 40% of the time, I'll bet those people don't always recognize the tile itself being repeated.

The human brain is really good at patterns so we're probably doomed never to have "enough" variety, but I think extensive use of Parts can mess with the brain for a bit longer.
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You bring up a good point.  I think tiles that don't try to be too unique that they are obvious every time you see them work better in that regard.  A basic intersection with buildings isn't obviously the same one you saw previously, but as you said, the bridge stands out.  Even so, having more tiles, even if they aren't super unique, can help to break up the feeling of duplicate sections of town.  Of course, there is only so much you can do without being noticably unique.  I still like seeing more tiles and more parts combining to add variety, even if I recognize the more unique ones often.  Considering how quickly the POI feel like you have seen the same few a million times, having tiles give off that same kind of feeling isn't too big of a deal to me.  Just having variety is better than not having it even if it repeats, imo. 

I suppose the question I'd have is whether or not you can limit the number of times a specific tile can generate on a map?  If you can limit it, then you could make very unique tiles that appear only a few times on a map so they don't seem so repetitive.  It seems like the bridge is set up that way as you normally don't see it very often in a given map.

One thing I see when I start including custom tiles from others is that those tiles can end up repeating a lot.  This is especially true with certain corner pieces.  Having more of these tiles, even if only minimally different in layout can help reduce the look of repetition.

One other reason those tiles seem so noticable is that they are entirely unique.  There is only one bridge, only one circular intersection, only one rural s-curve.  This makes them stand out compared to a regular intersection that has multiple variations.  That doesn't necessarily mean more variations of each of those is going to make things better, but only that it is a reason why they stand out.

 
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Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 

 
Riamus said:
I suppose the question I'd have is whether or not you can limit the number of times a specific tile can generate on a map?
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We don't see the configuration of most of the built-in Tiles. Among the Tiles listed in rwgmixer.xml, you can specify a min and max number of times it can appear per settlement. So, you can have min=0 and max=1 to make a Tile unique within a settlement. This supports Tiles with a special purpose really well.

When we add Tiles via a modlet, the only config I know is the min/max settings. I'm not aware of a way to specify "we'd like to enter this countryresidential_cap Tile into the lottery with an equal chance to be placed." That means if I want to make a more-generic Tile that is placed as an random replacement with an equal chance, I have to generate a bunch of maps, try to get a feel for what "max" will give the Tile an equal chance as the built-in Tile of the same type. I'm not sure I explained that well enough to be clear.

 
zztong said:
We don't see the configuration of most of the built-in Tiles. Among the Tiles listed in rwgmixer.xml, you can specify a min and max number of times it can appear per settlement. So, you can have min=0 and max=1 to make a Tile unique within a settlement. This supports Tiles with a special purpose really well.

When we add Tiles via a modlet, the only config I know is the min/max settings. I'm not aware of a way to specify "we'd like to enter this countryresidential_cap Tile into the lottery with an equal chance to be placed." That means if I want to make a more-generic Tile that is placed as an random replacement with an equal chance, I have to generate a bunch of maps, try to get a feel for what "max" will give the Tile an equal chance as the built-in Tile of the same type. I'm not sure I explained that well enough to be clear.
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Well, since I was referring to custom tiles, that seems like it would work well in helping to limit unique tiles from seeming to appear too frequently.

 
Jonathan said:
Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 
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It never stopped being active. I can answer question 3 - there was one, the Behemoth. As I understand it, they couldn't get it working right (yet modders have no issue getting it to work), so it was removed and and replaced with the demolisher zombie.

 
Old Crow said:
It never stopped being active. I can answer question 3 - there was one, the Behemoth. As I understand it, they couldn't get it working right (yet modders have no issue getting it to work), so it was removed and and replaced with the demolisher zombie.
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What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.

 
Roland said:
What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.
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Khaine has a mod for it. It works, but it isn't perfect by any means. But I don't see why they couldn't have polished it up over time, though the model itself just seems odd to me, even in this game. I like the demo and its mechanics more.

 
Roland said:
What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.
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Well... pathing issues are... good for zombies.  

 Behemot see you in building? start destroying everything <everything> to get too you like SNK titan. he can't because because dunno - he fall in too big hole?

explain in lore that behemot have brain issues. In warhammer fantasy goblin can't scratch his nose because it's too complicated for them - so pathing issues can be solved just by lore.

In l4d2 if Tank can't find path to survivors will die - there is no explanation but by comics you can learn that can be brain issue.  So if behemot would die from frustation... this could be good enough - it's not terraria or valheim where you kill enemies for loot

 
Roland said:
What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.
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Step one, rip the model and textures.

Step two, re rig it, add colliders.

Step three, see the issue with dogs and bears exacerbated by a giant entity clipping through things.

...but yeh it's been in mods for a while now. 

 
Jonathan said:
Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 
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To item #3:  The demolisher is kind of like that.   You have to shoot it carefully and explosives are not good vs it.   But some huge thing that is just a bullet sponge would be kind of fun the first time or two but after that would be annoying for me.

I like items 1 and 2.

 
bdubyah said:
Khaine has a mod for it. It works, but it isn't perfect by any means. But I don't see why they couldn't have polished it up over time, though the model itself just seems odd to me, even in this game. I like the demo and its mechanics more.
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A separate modlet than Darkness Falls? If so, I'll go looking. I'd like to see this for myself...haha

As for how appropriate it is, I think it fits more now with the new Spider and Screamer models than it did back when it was created.

 
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Roland said:
What mod has a working Behemoth? The Behemoth files were never completed and while its coding was still present but commented out there were some modders who added it to the game but even in those mods it could not be damaged. In the next update they removed it from the code and I've never seen it in any mod since. I wouldn't mind downloading a mod that somehow still has it just for kicks and to see if it actually does have all of its pathing issues fixed. I am skeptical that it actually exists since the model has not been in the code to be utilized by modders for years now. But I would be happy to be wrong.
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It does not have all of the pathing issues fixed, but it's WAY better in A20 than it was in previous alphas.

And yes, I ripped it, re-rigged it and stuffed it back in the game. You can even dismember it if you want ;)

 
KhaineGB said:
It does not have all of the pathing issues fixed, but it's WAY better in A20 than it was in previous alphas.

And yes, I ripped it, re-rigged it and stuffed it back in the game. You can even dismember it if you want ;)
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Did you ever try to add zip-lines in your mods?  :rapture2:

 
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