PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

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Laz Man said:
Roland makes a good point here.  If crafting wasn't significant to a player before, its not going to be different to them afterwards if they don't engage in the new system.

I predict the people who will have the toughest time adapting to this change are those who got use to perking into unlocking a specific recipe right away.

Personally, I feel unlocking recipes via magazines is far more rewarding then unlocking them via perk points.  There is also the upside that you no longer limited to what you can craft.

You now have more incentive to loot and have an additional avenue to obtain better quality weapons/armor.

Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other.  It also feels immersive as it feels more natural to find lost knowledge of the past this way.
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Laz man... that's a point to be limited.  Idk if this new system is "fun" ( btw not every game have to be fun to be good - dark souls is good because is frustrueting, Factorio is good game because you have to deal problems so you feel satisfaction). It's just less immersive - If you watch Walking Dead you can remember few episodes when they were looking for doctor. Because if someone is good doctor he can't be good mechanic because it's too much knowledge.  So... if someone is good cook ( i mean rly good cook like top chef not "my husband is good cook") is bad mechanical , if someone is good gunsmith he will be bad builder, if someone is good  medic he willl know how to shot and how to patch wounds.  Well we don't know too much about 7dtd lore but using logic ---> more time after fall ---> less knowledge because reading books can't learn you how to do a lot of things --> So let say 7dtd happens 20 year after DAY 0 ---> kids of our character will be thinking that this funny small mirrors were electronical mirrors, kids of their kids will know how to use guns but will have no idea how to make good one , and kids of their kids of their kids of their kids will wearing leather clothes and running with bows. why? it's hard to explain in our times so i will give you medieval as example. In this period there were armorer and i don't remember english word of blacsmith focused on making weapons. This same thing with leather , fabrics, sewing etc. 

Yes this is game so this have to be playeble so need of 50 people and tons of stuff to make 1 gun would be hell . But still specialisation should be necceasy

Bob - cook and farming

Will - crafting 

Niki - looting and quests

Micheal -  building + defence

Tom- tank and dps.

Now someone can say " yeah but if you know basic you can learn from book how to make this things better" and that's will be true but incorrect. Why?  I will give example. I'm playing with my friend in Factorio --> lack of red panels because there is not enough steel because there is not enough iron because iron deposit is low.  And in theory our characters are in much much better situation that 7dtd characters. Why? more resources and they can recraft them easy ( this can be logical because SCI FI stuff - probably their suits have some tools etc.)

7dtd world is destroyed so much so this should be hard to find parts, materials etc. So there would be no point to learn 5 people how to make guns if there only job for 1 person. and another person can ask me "but what if this person will die" anwer is..... well too small group don't have chance to survive a longer period so group must be big enough to let them have children so in this group will be few people who can do this same thing but ( idk how big is number   to keep minimal population) but this will be 5 people on 50 people. For 8 people 1 person is good enough

 
Matt115 said:
Laz man... that's a point to be limited.  Idk if this new system is "fun" ( btw not every game have to be fun to be good - dark souls is good because is frustrueting, Factorio is good game because you have to deal problems so you feel satisfaction). It's just less immersive - If you watch Walking Dead you can remember few episodes when they were looking for doctor. Because if someone is good doctor he can't be good mechanic because it's too much knowledge.  So... if someone is good cook ( i mean rly good cook like top chef not "my husband is good cook") is bad mechanical , if someone is good gunsmith he will be bad builder, if someone is good  medic he willl know how to shot and how to patch wounds.  Well we don't know too much about 7dtd lore but using logic ---> more time after fall ---> less knowledge because reading books can't learn you how to do a lot of things --> So let say 7dtd happens 20 year after DAY 0 ---> kids of our character will be thinking that this funny small mirrors were electronical mirrors, kids of their kids will know how to use guns but will have no idea how to make good one , and kids of their kids of their kids of their kids will wearing leather clothes and running with bows. why? it's hard to explain in our times so i will give you medieval as example. In this period there were armorer and i don't remember english word of blacsmith focused on making weapons. This same thing with leather , fabrics, sewing etc. 

Yes this is game so this have to be playeble so need of 50 people and tons of stuff to make 1 gun would be hell . But still specialisation should be necceasy

Bob - cook and farming

Will - crafting 

Niki - looting and quests

Micheal -  building + defence

Tom- tank and dps.

Now someone can say " yeah but if you know basic you can learn from book how to make this things better" and that's will be true but incorrect. Why?  I will give example. I'm playing with my friend in Factorio --> lack of red panels because there is not enough steel because there is not enough iron because iron deposit is low.  And in theory our characters are in much much better situation that 7dtd characters. Why? more resources and they can recraft them easy ( this can be logical because SCI FI stuff - probably their suits have some tools etc.)

7dtd world is destroyed so much so this should be hard to find parts, materials etc. So there would be no point to learn 5 people how to make guns if there only job for 1 person. and another person can ask me "but what if this person will die" anwer is..... well too small group don't have chance to survive a longer period so group must be big enough to let them have children so in this group will be few people who can do this same thing but ( idk how big is number   to keep minimal population) but this will be 5 people on 50 people. For 8 people 1 person is good enough
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I'm sorry Matt...but...

imostergolfra.gif

 
@Laz Man it will greatly affect how I play for the reasons that you posted, in fact it will completely invalidate our play style. But, do you know what? I don’t care because for me and my friends it will become a new game with big adjustments to our playing and I love that! New game for us so it’s a bonus. I can’t wait for it to drop and having to figure out the adjustments to our play styles.

 
Star69 said:
@Laz Man it will greatly affect how I play for the reasons that you posted, in fact it will completely invalidate our play style. But, do you know what? I don’t care because for me and my friends it will become a new game with big adjustments to our playing and I love that! New game for us so it’s a bonus. I can’t wait for it to drop and having to figure out the adjustments to our play styles.
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I wish everyone shared your same attitude...😅

As a fan of 7d2d, one thing I have always enjoyed over the years is learning to overcome whatever new changes came with each Alpha.  Especially when demolishers were added.

It helps that the game is inherently meant to be played multiple times.  From a single player stand point, I always found it fun to see if I could beat my personal records (e.g how long to survive without dying, how many horde nights can I survive, increase difficulty level, play a different build, live in a different biome, build a new type of base, etc.).

 
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Laz Man said:
Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other. 
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As long as the team isn't dysfunctional-- bullying each other over what containers are opened by whom or selfishly racing ahead of each other to open whatever they can for themselves and arguing over who gets what. The game is rated MA after all and that doesn't have to refer only to violence, gore, sex, drugs...er...candy, and profanity.

 
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Roland said:
I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists.
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In terms of perk benefits that may be true, but the change as I understand it isn't just about boosts but whether you can craft something or not since it will now require getting the required magazine. So assuming everyone plays 'fair' then sure maybe it will all just work out. So I'm amending my prior concern that it's not about the change of how skills/capabilities are acquired. It's that the change IMO will exasperate the challenges with multi-player since people don't play to the design and only play to the rules of the game until they figure out a way to bend them. So, I'll leave it at this - this seems to be more than just a change to how that part of the game works for an individual but has a high potential for negative dynamics in multi-player.

The current system (A20) from my perspective falls in line with your statement. The acquisition of skills to be able to perform the core building/crafting of the game are independent of the luck of random loot gen and are part of meaningful decisions .  Random Loot Gen is interesting and makes exploring/scavenging fun as as provides a boost to the core skills or overall play.  This change (A21) appears to remove the common building blocks of character development and throws it all at (weighted) RNG based on a path selection.  This makes magazines more important to being able to play the game than they currently are and by extension increases the luck factor of the game.  If it's weighted so heavy as to effectively grant the same capabilities by forcing the magazines that drive the same progression onto you then the value of the change is just change for change's sake.

So while experiences with that will be different for different people, I am not a fan of the premise as it feels like meaningful decision is being taken away and replaced by the roll of the dice.

 
sloejack said:
This change (A21) appears to remove the common building blocks of character development and throws it all at (weighted) RNG based on a path selection.  This makes magazines more important to being able to play the game than they currently are and by extension increases the luck factor of the game.  If it's weighted so heavy as to effectively grant the same capabilities by forcing the magazines that drive the same progression onto you then the value of the change is just change for change's sake.
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But it is limited to learning recipes. You are not improving your skills by random means. In A20, if you take miner 69er and mother lode, for example, they improved your block damage and increased the yields you got from harvesting as well as grant you recipes to craft higher tier tools. In A21, if you take miner 69er and mother lode you will still improve your block damage and increase the yields you get from harvesting and probably 69er will be the one to give a slight boost to finding tool magazines in loot. The skill will just not unlock recipes any more.

But there are lots of ways to get higher tier tools. Someone else can craft one for you. Someone can bring you back one that they found in loot. You can buy one at the trader. However you get your tools, you will deterministically be able to control how skilled you are with them just like A20. The only thing you won't be able to do is craft them yourself until you read enough magazines.

So in looking at the perks is the common building blocks of character development the number of recipes we know or is it the abilities and skills we gain from perks. Remember that all of the tier 2 and tier 3 recipes were learned by looting in A20 already. So the new method is really just a step forward from that. We are learning recipes from schematics but in little bits at a time instead of all at once from one schematic. But I'd say that if your team was able to function when recipes were learned by acquiring schematics they will be able to adapt to recipes being learned by acquiring magazines. Non-looters will still be able to perk up their skills just like normal and be reliant upon team mates to share with them the tools and such that they find just like happens now.

 
I told my group about the changes and we all agree they're entirely positive.

For those who are worried that this increases the RNG for learning, that's not how maths works.

If the old system gave you a (1 in x) chance of finding a recipe all at once when you looted, while the new system gives you a (1 in 100*x ) chance of finding a magazine but you need to read 100 magazines to get the recipe, the distribution of probabilities will be different.

Both distribution have the same peak - i.e. on average you would expect to get the recipe after looting X times - but the distribution for the old all-or-nothing version has much longer tails to it - i.e. you're much likely to either get really lucky and get the recipe early or get really unlucky and get the recipe late.

By increasing the sample size while keeping the same mean you end up with a more reliable (and less "RNG") estimate of how long it will take to find each recipe. It prevents both the "I found the steel armour recipe on day one" situation that the devs want to avoid and the "I got to day 250 and still haven't found steel armour" situation that players want to avoid.

 
A Nice Cup of Tea said:
By increasing the sample size while keeping the same mean you end up with a more reliable (and less "RNG") estimate of how long it will take to find each recipe. It prevents both the "I found the steel armour recipe on day one" situation that the devs want to avoid and the "I got to day 250 and still haven't found steel armour" situation that players want to avoid.
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It also avoids the "It's day 196 , I am level 278 and my lootstage is 330 in the forest and I can't find an anvil schematic because I don't have one and it won't drop because my lootstage is too high" problem

 

 
well yes. record must be about 20. that was building a massive base. all made of concrete. had 10 cement mixers too. i did have  an auger. only needed 1 of those.

 
Laz Man said:
I'm sorry Matt...but...

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Well.... so :

shorter version -  forcing specialisation is more immersive because.. this works in our times too because it's complicated enough so if someone want be rly good in something he have to focus on that thing. If 7dtd were let say - set in early medieval it could work for example : everyone using spear because it's cheap and easy to make. But it's better to buy Pike from Tom because he made few of them because he found harder wood

 
i mean i kinda see where mad done is coming from but just sitting away in one area mining and mining and mining....well i wouldn't say myself its a good way to experience the game and i feel like looting as a whole would be more fun to progress through skills rather than mining for hours on end. i understand its the way you play and maybe even how 10% of the games population plays but this play style isnt really the best as levelling up entirely to get everything seems like a really cheesy way to get your better tools and craft better stuff etc i dunno i love the sound of the new changes i know others might not but hey its 7 days to die the game is ever changing and we will adapt to it its the reason why i love it

 
7dtd is already pretty streamlined. Magazines don't add a thing if we don't want or need to craft anything but provide an alternative to do exactly that at any point, AND with added benefits compared to a20 (the empty space from the perk gets new bonuses) . We can just get everything from looting or buying it at a trader. I don't see a single problem, not even an increase in gameplay time - which was always high- , just a more balanced curve . Nevertheless, It's important to rant towards TFP . They are an evil corporation that thrives in the fun of the weak. Their substenance is gameplay time.

 
Callum123456789 said:
i mean i kinda see where mad done is coming from but just sitting away in one area mining and mining and mining....well i wouldn't say myself its a good way to experience the game and i feel like looting as a whole would be more fun to progress through skills rather than mining for hours on end.
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It always depends on how you look at it. For me, looting is boring. I open a loot container, either find something useful or not and move on to the next loot container. In between killing a few zombies but none of it requires any problem solving or creativity.

The fun for me starts with building and mining is part of it. When I build something I often have to solve problems and you can get creative. Sometimes I can even combine building and mining like with my current underground base.

By the way, you can't get everything in A20 just by sitting in the mine and farming XP. All T2 and T3 recipes require that you find the schematics. For example, I can build an iron pickaxe but neither a steel pickaxe nor an auger without the schematics.

 
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