PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Laz Man]

The only thing I'm worried about is going back to hunting for Forge Ahead books again. I do not, under any circumstance, miss that from previous alphas (been playing since alpha 9 I think).

I actually prefer basebuilding and mining in this game compared to spamming quests, and it seems like this is an intentional change to push me out of how I like to play for the first 14-21 days of a new server.

I love 7 Days because of the freedom it affords; pushing or railroading me into different play styles reduces my freedom. I'll reserve full judgment until after the alpha comes out though.

I think Roland said it best earlier.  The crafting change actually adds another option to the players decision tree which is a good thing in my opinion.

Do I grind quests for a magazine quest reward or some other type of quest reward that I need?

Do I forgo questing to loot POI x for a chance at magazine y because I (or a teammate) is so close to an unlock?

Keep in mind both of these options can lead to progression in crafting.  However, they certainly also have trade offs.  It is up to the player to make the choice which ones they engage in.

 

[Roland]

I agree with that sentiment. I am just a fan of making large changes optional. Many people are not going to like it and others (Me) will be thrilled.

I don’t know how they would make this change optional. There are quite a few changes to the UI, the perks, the loot tables, items, etc. This isn’t something an on/off switch or a slider can handle. 

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

They could split the changes into db and have the user pick between free play progression thorugh xp and decoupled progression through doing. Its not hard to clone systems and have an api call that system. This would take affect anytime you loaded a world this would however make older worlds and saves no longer functional. Its a small sacrifice for a better future. As someone who happens to like callback system implementation - its not hard or even slow to do. No chance of bleed over either because simply put its like defining file structure path. This would also mean however you would need 2 separate mod system paths. (I miss the rage system) It would also not change the game size much either since the graphics are the largest assets.

 

[Blake_]

We try to extend a broad reach across as many demographics as we can so that the game has wide appeal but Cursed People aren’t really our target market.

I remember getting a purple stone axe, a purple pipe shotgun and a purple wooden club on day one with just a twist of the wrist. Not only that, the trader sold me a used cigar to boost my amazon store chances.  I did 6 POI that day and I had 1 point in Lucky Looter, but still, never again did I encounter such  odds in a game. I spent all the good karma in a playthrough. Lately, I find paper. Lots. 25% loot is an amazing experience. I wish there was a lesser loot chance option, like 5%. That's true survival struggling.

 

[Burrfly]

Talking about community-feedback, I will try to sum up some things which I've read (and which I personally agree with) in the alpha 20 and 21 dev diary. Hopefully I'm correct. If I'm not, let me know.

- Learning by Doing coming back is epic, Learning by Looting not so much because it reduces unique playstyles

- The need of (way) more varieties of zombies because right now there are too many clones. Some people don't care about visuals like these which I wish I didn't myself either. Wether it be a random chance of them wearing a hat, a random color shirt or some more varieties in general would be greatly appreciated by the community. I personally think this small problem was not a problem back in alpha 16/17 because zombie models weren't as unique as they are now - making finding clones harder (especially from a distance)
 

- In earlier alpha 20 builds especially, I read a lot and also noticed myself about there being too much ammo in loot. They reduced it in a later alpha 20 update, which is very nice. There were still some people (including me) who found ammo (including for example pipe bombs) that could be received from trader quest rewards too much

- Some didn't mind, but I also read a lot of people (including me) not liking the reduction of building materials and their upgrade path. For example, the removal of wet and reinforced concrete, flagstone, and reinforced wood. I personally disliked this change the most because, well... this was another REDUCTION of variety which I personally think should not be the target. Simplification is often a mistake and, yeah, for new players it might be less confusing, but also the experience of learning that there are so many possibilities in this game as a new player is really fun. Well, this was for me the case absolutely when I started playing ~4 years ago in alpha 16

- Some people have also wrote about them not liking the change of another reduction, namely the reduction of player clothing slots coming in alpha 21 if I'm correct. I do have to agree again, because this is another reduction/simplification, which... again... reduces variety, playstyle uniqueness and eventually replayability.

Again, this was just what I've read and which I do think as well. But ofcourse this doesn't count for everyone

 

[RipClaw]

To me, that is a system that needs attention and would need improvement.

I agree that crafting needs improvement but more on the technical level.

One improvement would be to block certain slots so that what is there is not used in crafting or upgrading. Who hasn't wasted steel by upgrading the wrong block or accidentally using their good wrench to build the workbench instead of the almost broken level 1 wrench ?

Also a search function for chests would be a welcome improvement.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the changes in A21 will help crafting as long as you can loot everything in better quality than what you can craft.

- Learning by Doing coming back is epic, Learning by Looting not so much because it reduces unique playstyles

Learning be doing does not come back. Some mods implement it but in vanilla it is definitely dead.

 

[Callum123456789]

Book stores will be hot targets as well. 

yep im excited for this too because between a19 and a20 i havent really felt that excitement to find them like i usually would for example i remember seeing a book store in a15 and being like yessss spiked club time! or in alpha 18 i could find some books for my club build or other stuff but now when these magazines are introduced im pretty sure that will restore that excitement i used to get and its gonna be good

 

[fyiiamaheavy]

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

I can't tell you how many items I get @%$#ed off because of a container having no loot in them. Now in alpha 21 ill have magazines to find in those. very excited for this to come. hey Roland Ill kindly test the feature with you sir

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

You are probably correct, but looting the weapons themselves is still random, so you will find a rifle or sledgehammer to bring home to them. Or they buy the weapon at the trader.

It probably means you will have your weapons getting better more reliably because you can always craft a better weapon if you don't find it in loot while they depend on the loot. But that is okay, you as looter need your weapons much more than they

The miner and builder do have to deal with screamer hordes. And wandering hordes. Slower progression in their weapons would make this harder for them. So if they wanna be prepared properly they need to go looting more. Wich is not the part of the game they enjoy the most.

The whole problem with this change is that you are forced to play in a certain way. And the freedom how to play is one of the key ingredients of this game. It´s the one thing that let´s people play together that have different interests when gaming. Take that away and a lot of people will be unhappy. Just wait how this will be received by people when it releases, you can be sure it will be a huge s-storm. Propably as huge as A17 death penalty.

 

[RipClaw]

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

However, this means that some of the replayability is lost. Whether you find a schematic early, late or never can change the game significantly. For example, a Day 70 horde with a pistol is very different from one with an SMG.

 

[POCKET951]

You complain about changing the crafting system to be an unnecessary change. but I think a crafting overhaul is much needed. Currently you are capped at quality 5, also everyone who crafts weapons just perks up to craft rank 5s, finds the tier 3 weapon schematic and then crafts one and it is never ever used again. also because you can only craft up to quality 5 in the current system it becomes really pointless and wasteful and not a very good feeling system.

In an earlier post TFP said that quality 6 crafting might be back on the table with this system, and that is exciting because it means I will be able to craft top tier gear even if it isn't as good as the stuff you find in loot with perfect/random stats

alpha 20 crafting is very narrow and loses its luster very quickly and is completely overshadowed and left in the dust by looting and questing.

this new system is imo a much needed overhaul and a welcome change and far more exciting.

this is also like the A20 farming situation, alot of people were skeptical and critical of it before they even played it or tested it for themselves

Most people after trying it, didn't mind and grew to enjoy it.

There was obviously a very vocal minority who hated it or made there feedback and criticisms posted and known. 

as opposed as I was to the change at first it has grown on me and I quite enjoy it now.

I think this new crafting system will be met by the playerbase with alot less friction then the alpha 20 farming change once we get a chance to play with it for ourselves.
 

I think Roland said it best earlier.  The crafting change actually adds another option to the players decision tree which is a good thing in my opinion.

Do I grind quests for a magazine quest reward or some other type of quest reward that I need?

Do I forgo questing to loot POI x for a chance at magazine y because I (or a teammate) is so close to an unlock?

Keep in mind both of these options can lead to progression in crafting.  However, they certainly also have trade offs.  It is up to the player to make the choice which ones they engage in.

This sounds far more intersting than  the current iteration  which is:

1. Spec into the skill tree for the weapon/tool you want to craft

3.  Scrap and scavenge any rare weapon parts in A20 you can find or old guns you don't need anymore

2. hope  and wait untill you find the tier 3 weapon schematic( SMG,auto shotgun etc)
4. never ever use the system again because it carries you till you find quality 6

This overhaul solves alot of issues with the current system and creates a far more balanced/satisfying progression curve

 

[Callum123456789]

alright now thats over i will suggest something: with this whole new loot/crafting system overhaul where the loot is tailored to what you spec in lets say you are in a party with someone wouldnt you want this 100% loot specification to be halved to 50% and in this situation there are 2 players one who perked into pistols and one who perked into rifles there should be an even distribution between each looted container by said players so the rifle guy loots a wooden crate he finds some parts for the pistol guy but the pistol guy finds some parts for the rifle guy etc.

this may already be implemented by hey may aswell comment my opinion on it and i feel like this would answer a lot for the mp community too

 

[POCKET951]

However, this means that some of the replayability is lost. Whether you find a schematic early, late or never can change the game significantly. For example, a Day 70 horde with a pistol is very different from one with an SMG.

I see what you mean. but I don't enjoy being on day 200 lootstage 330+ in the forest without an anvil schematic because it simply doesn't drop for my gamestage ( i swear I saw this schematic on sale from traders before super late days but I never ended up buying it and I am regretting it because I have to pray they sell anvils) 

also. anvils are hard to find at high gamestages.

with this system I will be able to always deterministically make essential crafting stations/accessories

 

[Callum123456789]

I see what you mean. but I don't enjoy being on day 200 lootstage 330+ in the forest without an anvil schematic because it simply doesn't drop for my gamestage ( i swear I saw this schematic on sale from traders before super late days but I never ended up buying it and I am regretting it because I have to pray they sell anvils) 

also. anvils are hard to find at high gamestages.

with this system I will be able to always deterministically make essential crafting stations/accessories

absolutely agreed i remember the same thing due to my high gamestage id always find the schematic for crucibles/bellows but no anvil great point here

 

[RipClaw]

I see what you mean. but I don't enjoy being on day 200 lootstage 330+ in the forest without an anvil schematic because it simply doesn't drop for my gamestage ( i swear I saw this schematic on sale from traders before super late days but I never ended up buying it and I am regretting it because I have to pray they sell anvils) 

also. anvils are hard to find at high gamestages.

with this system I will be able to always deterministically make essential crafting stations/accessories

The same happened to me once with the bellow. Ultimately, I then visited every know trader on my map every 3 days until one had the schematics.

I'm not saying that this is always fun, but it shows that decisions in the game are influenced by it. Even base designs can be influenced by what you find or don't find.
 

 

[zztong]

I've got to be crazy to jump into the LBL/LBD conversation. Honestly, I'm easy. Both have appeal, as do probably some other approaches.

LBD seems great for things like using weapons, picking locks. I'm not so sure I like it for crafting. How many stone axes do I have to craft and scrap to learn how to make an iron axe? That seems odd. I'd have seen metal tools before the apocalypse. LBD seems like a decent way to slowly improve the quality of what I know to craft.

LBL seems great for opening up new options. I could see finding an issue of Popular Mechanics that talks about forging iron into an iron axe.

But I can see some overlap. I mean, if LBL turns up "Gun Parts", then some action (say "upgrade") to apply those "Gun Parts" to a gun seems like how LBL enables LBD. You couldn't manufacture the parts yourself, but you can learn gunsmithy via working on your own equipment. Maybe the effect is the durability gets slightly higher.

Maybe LBL eventually shows you how to machine Gun Parts, but I'd be okay with that never happening. I mean, many modern parts need advanced engineering and manufacturing that I don't easily see an apocalypse survivor doing.

I could see LBL turning up the knowledge to make a bike, or repair a vehicle. Actually, that's kind of an interesting idea. Rather than make a 4x4 on a workbench, you have to keep upgrading an in-game vehicle wreck.

I guess I see how both LBL and LBD kind of go together.

I may just be one of the "blind, sleeping TFP fan-boy masses" but I'm game to see how any new system plays out before attempting to craft a torch and a pitchfork.

 

[RipClaw]

LBL seems great for opening up new options.

Some mods have similar approaches. For example, in many mods you can scrap duplicate schematics and get generic schematics from which you can then create specific schematics or classbooks. It is a very popular mechanic as it maintains unpredictability but also provides a second way to unlock recipes.

 

[zztong]

Shower thought...

Maybe the new bench is some kind of learning center... like a desk or a laptop computer. Then you take the LBL results ... part and magazines ... to this learning center. The LBD is you spend time reading magazines to unlock new things to craft or you spend time working with the parts to improve the quality of things you already know how to craft.

At the Desk, Read magazines for gunsmithing and you learn how to make a pistol.

At the Workbench, use Gun Parts to make a Q1 Pistol.

At the Workbench, Use your Q1 Pistol and some Gun Parts and you improve the Durability and/or Quality level of your pistol and of those that you later craft.

 

[Matt115]

@Matt115 Cannot do VR until performance is 600% better especially during hoards and larger servers XD the only thing laggy VR will give you is a serious headache XD

I can see your point but other then more books being in bookshelves and then just equating to paper and stacking to 500 I can see why it might seem silly. There is nothing wrong with the current system and I agree we should focus on simply boosting performance by any means necessary. (No telling people don't do X is not a solution.) there is very clear issues with
 

• Zombie Spawn Lag
  
• Party EXP Share Lag
  
• Structure Spawning Lag
  
• Even Quest Loading Lag
  

Pretty foolish to ignore the elephants in the room. Not to mention servers should be able to safely host 100 people. (Similar to minecraft and other large scale survival games. Too bad it is not built on the unreal 5 engine - pretty sure they could do this on such a powerful titan.)

1. VR can be done for SP only

2. i usually using a lot of paper for ammo + i'm garthering 20+ duplicates then buying candy and sell them with rest of junk stuff

Honestly Matt, I don’t doubt that your worst case scenario fantasies have come to life. But your worst cases are pretty unique to you. Also, don’t take what I said to extreme. There is still paper mixed in but you will never again loot an entire bookstore and end up with a team of paper and very little actual books. What I am saying is that looting a bookstore will feel rewarding. You will not come even close to finishing one of your skill trees after raiding a bookstore but you will feel it was time worth spent. It’s not raining magazines. I’m sure there will be some tweaking of the balance once everyone gets their hands on it. 

And that's problem. 7dtd happens a lot of years after outbreake right? So the best stuff was looted a lon long time ago and now just remain only uselless stuff like comics, romances etc and if you find something useful this is just effect of  lack of time previose looters or they don't find.  So 5 usefull book and 250 pages is good ratio

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

If looting is buffed crafting is debuffed - why making iron axe if you can find better much faster? why to make gun if you can buy much better one?  And again - this scavenging in 7dtd  should be more early stage and focus on smelting etc in late stage. Why? after X years only way to get something should be by made this -- > you know buidling is burning , tools rusting etc

I think Roland said it best earlier.  The crafting change actually adds another option to the players decision tree which is a good thing in my opinion.

Do I grind quests for a magazine quest reward or some other type of quest reward that I need?

Do I forgo questing to loot POI x for a chance at magazine y because I (or a teammate) is so close to an unlock?

Keep in mind both of these options can lead to progression in crafting.  However, they certainly also have trade offs.  It is up to the player to make the choice which ones they engage in.

Well not so rly - if you played on this map you will know with POI will be restarted -->  so you be able to grind what you want very fast. So best option is --> take quest loot poi   bring stuff to base came do quest + loot --> do similiar quest to get this same poi 

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

I see what you mean. but I don't enjoy being on day 200 lootstage 330+ in the forest without an anvil schematic because it simply doesn't drop for my gamestage ( i swear I saw this schematic on sale from traders before super late days but I never ended up buying it and I am regretting it because I have to pray they sell anvils) 

also. anvils are hard to find at high gamestages.

with this system I will be able to always deterministically make essential crafting stations/accessories

Spoiler

I have suffered this too. Actually I am on lootstage 300+ in a war3zuk AIO  and been playing for weeks and I still can't find welder schematic. I cannot make HD bullets. Its a nightmare.

I just want to be able to find anything random because that would be the reality. Loot stage actually annoys me. I would at least like to have the option to ignore loot stage. I am not against change though but that is only because I am a modder so no matter the outcome I can play my way.