PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Quantum Blue]

Zombies that understand structural integrity and complex pathing were never introduced as a deliberate feature. They're here because something was needed to provide a challenge to player bases/safehouses/etc. given other limitations of the game engine.

I don't understand how you know what expectations TFP has had with their zombies.  How would you know how it's being refined by their developers and new staff as meetings and new or old ideas are discussed?  It's entirely possible that TFP's expectations for Z's were higher but did not have time/staff/or resources to implement.  (and even if a singular person mentioned that it was done as you say, that does not negate any other reasons or previous ideas as well.)

Although a couple other posters posted 'reasonable' ideas for zombies attacking things instead of the person (as well as other behaviors) I would like to add to as well.

Everybody also keeps talking about 7D2D z's and viruses.  It doesn't just have to be about viruses.  I had stated an example earlier, but I resorted to using hyperbole as a means to induce imaginary thinking, and it didn't work as intended.  I would like to present my own current imagination/realism reasoning of TFP's z's.

------------  A Radiated Virused Nano-Robotic 7D2D Story -----------

Nano-robotics IS an existing SCIENCE.  In 7D2D, it just so happens there's a government lab in a bunker somewhere in Arizona developing the technology.  About 5-10 years in the future they have the nano-robots capable of strengthening bones, skin, fingernails, etc.  But, it's not capable of rebuilding or healing.  (Well, normally...)  They have have a limited hive-mind intelligence.

Then a limited nuclear war breaks out.  {any reason.)  And it has affected several research sites, virus research labs, nano-robotics labs, etc.  And some moron scientist at one of the nano-robotics lab believes he can manipulate the nano-robots to heal (wounds and/or radiation).  So they arranged for some radiated/virus-infected persons (or bodies) to be brought to the lab.

Well, unlike Reese's Peanut Butter cups, the mix of virus/radiation/nano-robots has created some very bad things.  (Hereafter referred to as rvnr's.)  And, while there is some consistency, there are also differences as well.  The rvnr's have 'decided' they want to multiply (survival...)  They don't care how or whom or what: animals, people, alive, dead, whatever.  But, they still haven't mastered rebuilding the host body back to what it was before they infected it.  (Well, mostly...)  But, they do provide added strength, stronger bones, stronger finger/toe nails, etc., AND some limited intelligence.  But, because it's not just tissue and muscles being FULLY driven by a organic brain, they don't move like 'living' things normally do.  Most have jerky moving (and moving speed is NOT a constant), head bobbing, while some are capable of jumping further distances, etc.  It also seems that sunlight has some kind of effect,  as most rvnr's seem slower in light.  It's been postulated the rvnr's are keeping energy expenditures lower, and using the light to help 'recharge their batteries'.  (That's a super simplified explanation.  They actually form 'conduits' from rvnr's on the host surface to feed the energy to the internal rvnr's.)

Some even made it to a police station, where some living police had holed up.  And these LEO's (Law Enforcement Officer's) had access to some military equipment.  Including various kinds of gas grenades.  Well, as you can imagine, there was a fight in close quarters where some gas was used, and some LEO's died.  And got 'infected' with the rvnr's.  The rvnr's 'thought' the gas was actually part of the host 'system' and so they modified the body to be able to keep producing it, and to hurl it when necessary.

It is also believed that there are aquatic form's of the rnvr's - but evidence has been extremely limited thus far.

And, (obviously!) some nano-robot z's have discovered how to use the radiation to re-heal some forms!  But, it may only work at a certain radiation percentage, radiation/virus percentage combo, damaged/dead body amount, etc.

And, because of the hive-mind some info/intelligence is being shared.  It's not known the extent of the info, or which z's, but some seem capable of limited 'learning'.  It is also not known how the info is shared (touch? blue-tooth? ...), but currently it seems to be very localized.  (Dang good thing - or everything would be toast!)

-------------

Btw - one probably should not assume avatar's are 'normal' people either.  They could have conditions that are bad: (insomnia, virus, disease, etc.) or good: like having some other kind of rvnr's that are helping 'build' the person.

And, just because something is a certain way now, this is still ALPHA, and very subject to change.

 

[Laz Man]

Should the same poi ever spawn in a single city? iirc this was something to report in a19... I found 2 or 3 of the same poi in my starting city. (Though I have to confirm it is an actual poi instead of part of a tile. It is the motorhome with a police cruiser and a shed in front of it. (I remember seeing this poi back in a19 when the police cruiser still had a distinctive paint job; it still says police cruiser when looting but lacks the distinctive appearance now)

You can find out the POI name by standing in its bounds and taking a screen shot with F11.  We would also need to know your seed / world name etc.  Your log file too.  When in doubt, click link in red banner above and file a report.  Thanks.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Can I just step in and say Morloc has a point.

These Zombies with their homing digging and their lock on and whole support smashing in order to get to you. Yeah, no.

With this behaviour what's the need for bandits.

I'd argue the only reason these behave like this is because thats all TFP really can do since they wont make enormous zombie hordes a thing as standard with their game because of performance purposes.

In a world of the undead, semi-dead, not-dead-mental-infected-loonies (and guns,) the only thing that should really bother anyone is number.

Huge nunbers of them sweeping over you like a cannibalistic tsunami.

But as I said, performance and, inspite of the nice(ish) HD models (I say 'ish' because some of the models are beautiful and others like the janitor and new Lumberdwarf are just pffft...) the range is very limited.

Again because of the focus on variants of each (normal, feral, irradiated.)

On that point, can we expect more zombie variants in the future, as well as a mix up of the behaviour? (dragging leg, bees in the ears etc.)

 

[Jost Amman]

On that point, can we expect more zombie variants in the future, as well as a mix up of the behaviour? (dragging leg, bees in the ears etc.)

They already said this in one of the dev streams. They found a way to probably (they need to experiment a bit) give many variations with colors to zombies.

As for other special zombies, IIRC they said they're not done yet.

 

[meganoth]

For this to work, it would need more than just the information of what tastes good and what tastes yucky, and virus alone wouldn't be capable of that decision making, i.e. "Leave that rock alone, that's not edible, go after that survivor's brain instead."

Chickens can learn what tastes good and they eat it every time they have a chance, but their brain is the size of a peanut, so certainly not something so small you cannot even see it with a naked eye.

You are still assuming here that the virus does the thinking. But the idea is that the virus is just providing the fuel for the brain to work at a very basic level. We all are agreed the virus itself can't THINK itself, but lets assume its evolution found just the right virus code that makes lower brain functions work and its deactivation of SOME brain parts leads to a behavioural change as well.

Now even that theory is vastly short of a real explanation: How a body can work without blood pumping through the veins and where the energy to operate the body comes from?

But at least it makes a valiant attempt at explaining the brain function of any type of zombie we seen in movies.

 

[mr.devolver]

You are still assuming here that the virus does the thinking. But the idea is that the virus is just providing the fuel for the brain to work at a very basic level. We all are agreed the virus itself can't THINK itself, but lets assume its evolution found just the right virus code that makes lower brain functions work and its deactivation of SOME brain parts leads to a behavioural change as well.

Now even that theory is vastly short of a real explanation: How a body can work without blood pumping through the veins and where the energy to operate the body comes from?

But at least it makes a valiant attempt at explaining the brain function of any type of zombie we seen in movies.

Dead brain is a dead brain, there's no fuel that would bring it back to life in the first place. Also, at the time of death, the virus already has to be inside the body, don't you think it would take over the control long before its host dies?

 

[meganoth]

Dead brain is a dead brain, there's no fuel that would bring it back to life in the first place.

You should maybe first find out what "death" exactly does to the brain before you try to shoot down a theory: https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html

One thing the article alludes to is that oxygen is the (main) fuel that operates the brain (I'm pretty sure there is more to it, but on a layman level, this is the answer)

As you can read in this article the virus would have at least 5 minutes after death to provide either oxygen directly or something that fullfills the same function. Now how it does this is the magical part, but this is the only way the brain can still operate after death.

Also, at the time of death, the virus already has to be inside the body, don't you think it would take over the control long before its host dies?

That is easily explained: The virus keeps the brain functioning on a very low level so higher brain functions like your conciousness can't interfere with it. I.e. it keeps the brain deprived of the full fuel intake it needs. As long as the blood is running through the veins, the brain has enough fuel to keep it running at 100% and whatever the virus would do, your conscience would prevent you from just eating your friends or humans generally.

There is a comparable method in computer science. Hackers operate computers at less than full voltage so that the computers still run, but run faulty, i.e. with incorrect behaviour. This can lead to the computer giving up its secrets, like passwords.

 

[DEATH MECHANIC]

Will Vulkan graphics ever be fully [SIZE=14.6px]supported[/SIZE]? It has been an option in the launcher, but [SIZE=14.6px]labeled[/SIZE] as not fully supported. I have had good success testing using it on an older machine with AMD graphics, but nVidia drivers do seem to have a few random lockups with it. Vulkan does seem to add as much as a 50% increase in FPS over OpenGL.

i have mentioned this myself before and was told there was no way that its 50% better so I'm glad you have done some testing and have seen the improvements as i saw them.

Hopefully one day it will be fully supported and work properly.

 

[Morloc]

I don't understand how you know what expectations TFP has had with their zombies.  How would you know how it's being refined by their developers and new staff as meetings and new or old ideas are discussed?

TFP tout their progress on the game with release and patch notes.

They highlight and summarize new features, changes and fixes.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

 

[mr.devolver]

You should maybe first find out what "death" exactly does to the brain before you try to shoot down a theory: https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html

One thing the article alludes to is that oxygen is the (main) fuel that operates the brain (I'm pretty sure there is more to it, but on a layman level, this is the answer)

As you can read in this article the virus would have at least 5 minutes after death to provide either oxygen directly or something that fullfills the same function. Now how it does this is the magical part, but this is the only way the brain can still operate after death.

The virus is not capable to restore blood stream into brain to supply the brain with more oxygen and we all know that without oxygen the brain would soon die and there's no return. Nothing else would work either, the virus can't magically change how the human body works, certainly not to such extent as to modify its biological processes and what kind of chemicals it requires to function properly, so no other way would work to keep the body somewhat alive. Funny, the article which you linked to explains why what you say would be impossible, so please don't believe me, just read the article...

 

[The Gronk]

The virus is not capable to restore blood stream into brain to supply the brain with more oxygen and we all know that without oxygen the brain would soon die and there's no return. Nothing else would work either, the virus can't magically change how the human body works, certainly not to such extent as to modify its biological processes and what kind of chemicals it requires to function properly, so no other way would work to keep the body somewhat alive. Funny, the article which you linked to explains why what you say would be impossible, so please don't believe me, just read the article...

Okay, I'll jump on the speculative fiction bandwagon...

How about a fungus that's commonly mistaken for or referred to as a virus to due lack of knowledge or cultural bias?  The hyphae would be able to create a network to pass nutrients through the body, although at a slower rate than normal blood flow.  This would go a long way to explaining the slow movement, difficulty thinking, and abnormal behaviour of the zombie.

Something like Ophiocordyceps unilateralis for animals with a central nervous system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis

 

[meganoth]

The virus is not capable to restore blood stream into brain to supply the brain with more oxygen and we all know that without oxygen the brain would soon die and there's no return. Nothing else would work either, the virus can't magically change how the human body works, certainly not to such extent as to modify its biological processes and what kind of chemicals it requires to function properly, so no other way would work to keep the body somewhat alive. Funny, the article which you linked to explains why what you say would be impossible, so please don't believe me, just read the article...

There is a simple fact nobody can get around: Science can not explain zombies at all, they are impossible in reality. So even your suggestion "Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, " is utter nonsense as well, sorry. Zombies in reality are impossible any which way.

Now the interesting thing is to "explain" zombies in a way that it NEARLY makes sense if you squint a little. Your explanation of external device or mutations is just as much squinting as a virus (or fungus, thanks The Gronk) that somehow provides oxygen or something else that substitutes for oxygen. All those explanations need some magic at places hopefully few people know much about so they get hoodwinked into believing it, at least in a game.

Now this is subjective, sure, but a virus to supply some sort of energy to the brain sounds more believable than a virus have nearly the thinking power of a dog. And moreover it is the perfect explanation for the zombies in 7D2D as any level of intelligence can be explained by it.

 

[Morloc]

Your evil is spectacular, beautiful and mesmerizing in its simplicity.  *passes over her soul* 

Clearly a distinguished woman of high standards and good taste.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

 

[doughphunghus]

There is a simple fact nobody can get around: Science can not explain zombies at all, they are impossible in reality. So even your suggestion "Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, " is utter nonsense as well, sorry. Zombies in reality are impossible any which way.

Now the interesting thing is to "explain" zombies in a way that it NEARLY makes sense if you squint a little. Your explanation of external device or mutations is just as much squinting as a virus (or fungus, thanks The Gronk) that somehow provides oxygen or something else that substitutes for oxygen. All those explanations need some magic at places hopefully few people know much about so they get hoodwinked into believing it, at least in a game.

Now this is subjective, sure, but a virus to supply some sort of energy to the brain sounds more believable than a virus have nearly the thinking power of a dog. And moreover it is the perfect explanation for the zombies in 7D2D as any level of intelligence can be explained by it.

I think that we can imagine something that would “dumb us down” or at least change how we think (like rabies virus, the brain fog you get when you’re really sick, etc) and ways to make us not feel pain (virus destroys the nerve center in the brain, etc) and maybe even reasons that we wouldn’t die from bleeding out of something but a big chunk out of us (virus causes immediate blood clotting? ), so when you have all of that you still run into some big issues that we don’t have real world examples to match up with, mainly: dead things generally don’t walk around, so they just have some level of “alive”, we’ll… “alive” things need food and without that they die. It seems sort of “real” that an alive person who cannot feel pain, wounds, etc could sort of hibernate to live a long time… but we’re thinking of big things storing a lot of energy like bears… but then again there are frogs and fish tha can hibernate buuut they have to be basically frozen to do so.  Anyway: it’s a hard hurdle to jump to make this “alive” zombie live longer than a few weeks not only because lack of eating/drinking (after everyone dies). The body should stop functioning due to lack of new energy and fluid , as well as the wounds (and eyes, etc) should start drying out from the environment. So maybe after a month after eating most people All zombies should be at least lying on the ground unable to move. 
 

to get around that requires the extra “energy” component (so they get energy via other means that are not eating. Things like funguses and special mitochondria functions, etc. which I believe have been part of zombie lore (or video game lore). 
 

Additionally, bacteria and other nasty things (bugs) would likely attack zombies and start degrading them. It’s hard to come up with a way they wouldn’t. 
 

ao: I say have the zombies also prefer to drink water… so they get hydration.  Then make them “not” super stupid, so they have more of an “human animal brain” and will search for food other than you. Like they will open doors and look in cabinets. Maybe not use can openers. Make them “people who are barely aware they are alive and are not dead but cannot feel pain”.  The bacteria and bugs will still get them… but they should live a little bit longer maybe?

why am I writing all of this..?

 

[meganoth]

...

why am I writing all of this..?

The virus made you do it

 

[doughphunghus]

The virus made you do it

Hmmmm m gaaarrrr ssssshjjjlll This explains why hrrrrrrr I shambled to work todayssshhhh why didn’t I must eat brains… didn’t I stay home screeeeee!  I work with computerrrrrs haaagggggaa no need to come into office rreerreerrrr

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

They already said this in one of the dev streams. They found a way to probably (they need to experiment a bit) give many variations with colors to zombies.

As for other special zombies, IIRC they said they're not done yet.

That's nice but it didn't answer my question.

I was asking about new zombies and the application of existing animations being applied across the board, (though for the fat zombied the bees-in-my-ears animation may cause clipping issues), and not just for variations in what the colour of their clothes.

Also, speaking of the fat tourist being so detailed and specific dimply changing the cokour of it's shirt will further cheapen an attempt to disguise repetition.

So, new zombies. I'm sure it's something everyone would appreciate, including those same people who have gone back through my posts just to dislike them

 

[Jost Amman]

I was asking about new zombies and the application of existing animations being applied across the board, (though for the fat zombied the bees-in-my-ears animation may cause clipping issues), and not just for variations in what the colour of their clothes.

That's something I wouldn't want, honestly. They already did that in A18/19? (can't remember, but it was weird to see some random animations applied to a zombie which is completely "out of character" for that specific one.

The way to go IMO is exactly the opposite: fat zombies should walk more like "fat people" while thin and agile ones can have nervous/quick animations, and so on...

 

[Gazz]

Now the interesting thing is to "explain" zombies in a way that it NEARLY makes sense if you squint a little.

Basically this. Hahahaha

Like explaining the current state of "AP ammo" in the game. They obviously use the hardest type of bullet to get clean penetration. They also use the softest type of bullet to get massive deformation on impact and cause the most tissue damage.

Each aspect of it can be explained - just not at the same time.

 

[Jay_ombie]

Can we please have some form of bonus for clearing out a POI at night (specially the power generator quests at least).