PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Jost Amman]

Cheese - the act of manipulating the AI of a game in order to gain an advantage at the cost of immersion and realism. 

See also: meta gaming

Define "realism". I mean, you're already out of whack here, since zombies don't exist!  :madgrin:

using blocks that have proporties that manipulate the ai, just sitting on roof tops on blood moons long concrete corridors to walk along on bms same goes for just circling around an undergroudn tunnel and probably repair spamming hatches so you dont have to fight the horde these all seem like messing with the game and or ai to make it easy i always have some sort of killing pillar with wedges leading upwards then i build myself with a kill box with poles and normal blocks seems pretty fair of a fight to me 

Can you tell me if you consider my current A20 base cheesy please?

I'm asking because I don't think my base is like that, since I actually fight and kill zeds and my gate CAN be broken.

Spoiler

 

[Aldranon]

There was a brief moment when the BM hit its ultimate form:  The "World War Z", pile up against your walls and break over your puny defenses like a huge tsunami!  AI.

I still vividly remember when they crested over my not insignificant walls and all hell broke lose!

Good times...

 

[mr.devolver]

It was a general fix for things falling through the world, which also effects vehicles. One of our testers retested vehicles and it is better, but he still found cases of them moving, so more testing when I get back to it.

Sure, I play a modded game, but blocks and entities falling off the world is a serious problem even in vanilla and mods can't really make it worse or better in any way. The following list of things falling off the world was handpicked from a single log in Alpha 20.1 EXP where the fix should already exist. I thought I will never see these again, but it looks like now I see even more of them (before it was just entities, now it's also blocks and things such as resourceClayLump?)

2022-01-19T22:36:22 3199.151 WRN Entity FallingBlock_224 (EntityFallingBlock) fell off the world, id=224 pos=(-1340.6, -0.2, 1463.4)

2022-01-19T23:57:55 8091.745 WRN Entity [type=EntityAnimalSnake, name=animalSnake, id=522] fell off the world, id=522 pos=(-1237.5, -1.1, 1410.5)

2022-01-19T23:57:55 8091.957 WRN Entity [type=EntityZombie, name=zombiePoliceOfficerFemale1s2, id=517] fell off the world, id=517 pos=(-1241.5, -0.8, 1415.0)

2022-01-20T01:15:36 12752.888 WRN Entity [type=EntityAnimalRabbit, name=animalChicken, id=616] fell off the world, id=616 pos=(-1092.5, -0.6, 1713.5)

2022-01-20T01:26:38 13414.560 WRN Entity [type=EntityItem, name=resourceClayLump, cnt=44] fell off the world, id=723 pos=(-959.4, -0.5, 1939.6)

 

[Roland]

It’s still just entities. Every case you listed showed entities. A falling block is different than a placed block. Regular blocks are not falling off the world.

Give them some time. ALL fixes are “supposed fixes” until they bear up under rigorous play. This is what experimental is for— to determine if the supposed fixes did in fact fix those things on a large scale. It’s not advised to just assume that if something is in the fixed section that it truly is forever fixed and done. It takes testing over time to determine that. 

 

[mr.devolver]

It’s still just entities. Every case you listed showed entities. A falling block is different than a placed block. Regular blocks are not falling off the world.

Give them some time. ALL fixes are “supposed fixes” until they bear up under rigorous play. This is what experimental is for— to determine if the supposed fixes did in fact fix those things on a large scale. It’s not advised to just assume that if something is in the fixed section that it truly is forever fixed and done. It takes testing over time to determine that. 

So it's all entities, that doesn't mean it's ok. This fix was believed to be a general fix to prevent this issue in all cases, including but not limited to entities, so please don't knuckle rub my head for putting that out there, I'm just trying to help to get this really fixed for all of us. I simply did my own test and this is the result, I didn't make a bug report since this was a modded game, but now I see it was not reported only by me, so it's clearly still happening in vanilla game as well. I just wanted to make sure that devs are aware of it, that's all.

So far the only oddity in random world generation I have come across is this...

View attachment 22936

View attachment 22937

Moses entered the game

 

[Lord Morphleyes]

Define "realism". I mean, you're already out of whack here, since zombies don't exist!  :madgrin:

Spoiler

View attachment 22991

I almost put realism in quotes since as you say we are in a tanstasy game. But the definition goes beyond just fantasy games and applies to games that are based on "reality".   For fantasy games ita the immersion into the fantasy world as created and intended by the creator. 

, I think they're breaking their own immersion and realism if these creatures decide to tear down the supports. I mean, they ~might~ circle around under the shack in frustration and ~maybe~ bump into a support, but they want me, not the wooden column. 

Entities that don't conform to YOUR ideas of behavior don't break immersion. That is all on you taking your preconceived notions about how a created world should operate and imposing that on the game. 

The original NoTLD zombies didn't run. Someone made a movie and wanted them to run, and do they did. Do zombies want brains or just the flesh of the living? Can they climb ladders?  Are they trying to eat people or just bite them to spread a virus?   They can use sledge hammers now?

Just a few examples of the different expressions of zombies in fiction. The creator creates the world and we  immerse ourselves into it. 

Or not, but thats a personal choice. 

 

[Gazz]

Works of fiction are simply different.

When people mention "Romero zombies" most don't realise that this does include zombies smart enough to ride a horse or fire a rifle.

Everyone has their favourite book/movie universe but that does not make it any more correct than all the others.

 

[mr.devolver]

Works of fiction are simply different.

When people mention "Romero zombies" most don't realise that this does include zombies smart enough to ride a horse or fire a rifle.

Everyone has their favourite book/movie universe but that does not make it any more correct than all the others.

I always found those "smart zombies" creepy and unrealistic, at least those from the same or similar universe of the walking dead where the narrative was clearly that a virus came to life in their already dead brain, so the brain itself couldn't really "think" on its own and instead the whole body was controlled only by the virus. I can't really imagine how the little virus that is I don't know, couple of nanometers in size could handle the control over the whole body and still have enough of its own "thinking capacity" to "think smartly" for the zombie as well. Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, but the virus alone controlling the body while thinking smartly for the zombie is way off.

 

[Morloc]

That is all on you taking your preconceived notions about how a created world should operate and imposing that on the game. 

Perhaps, because that is what people do. ALL of us.

If I were to play a game called Deathrace2525 some of my notions about the game would involve vehicles, or at least a race. It would likely be in the future. If it turned out to be a sim involving pastel anthropomorphic Volkswagens (with cute German accents) I think I'd be putting my lack of immersion on the developer. There's a certain  amount of artistic license we should all accept, but the word genre implies grounding. 7D2D has a flavor that's evolved little over last decade or so. That's not surprising given that we're still beta, and don't have much backstory. Over those years I've seen few people who were "good" with the idea of "Zombie Engineers". I suspect zombie sorcerers or laser rifles would probably break 7D2D's immersion too, even though they might be perfectly fine outside of this subgenre.

Zombies that understand structural integrity and complex pathing were never introduced as a deliberate feature. They're here because something was needed to provide a challenge to player bases/safehouses/etc. given other limitations of the game engine.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

I always found those "smart zombies" creepy and unrealistic, at least those from the same or similar universe of the walking dead where the narrative was clearly that a virus came to life in their already dead brain, so the brain itself couldn't really "think" on its own and instead the whole body was controlled only by the virus. I can't really imagine how the little virus that is I don't know, couple of nanometers in size could handle the control over the whole body and still have enough of its own "thinking capacity" to "think smartly" for the zombie as well. Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, but the virus alone controlling the body while thinking smartly for the zombie is way off.

To play devil's advocate, imagine that the virus lives in the nervous system and only sustains enough of the brain's functionality (as part of its own lifecycle) for the more feral, base, animal instincts and motor skills to function. With a more exotic version, higher brain functions ("fire bad", "food always in houses", "redheads taste good") might still work even if there wasn't a functioning consciousness anymore.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

 

[mr.devolver]

To play devil's advocate, imagine that the virus lives in the nervous system and only sustains enough of the brain's functionality (as part of its own lifecycle) for the more feral, base, animal instincts and motor skills to function. With a more exotic version, higher brain functions ("fire bad", "food always in houses", "redheads taste good") might still work even if there wasn't a functioning consciousness anymore.

For this to work, it would need more than just the information of what tastes good and what tastes yucky, and virus alone wouldn't be capable of that decision making, i.e. "Leave that rock alone, that's not edible, go after that survivor's brain instead."

Chickens can learn what tastes good and they eat it every time they have a chance, but their brain is the size of a peanut, so certainly not something so small you cannot even see it with a naked eye.

 

[Callum123456789]

Define "realism". I mean, you're already out of whack here, since zombies don't exist!  :madgrin:

Can you tell me if you consider my current A20 base cheesy please?

I'm asking because I don't think my base is like that, since I actually fight and kill zeds and my gate CAN be broken.

Spoiler

View attachment 22991

i would say no as the zombies could easily get through an iron hatch if you cannot kill them fast enough eg not fighting them or you are trying to spam repair it without a nail gun and for the most part it isnt messing with the ai

 

[Khissi]

1) Bring back and expand upon the spider zombie. A zombie that climbs or jumps and then tries to chomp through a wall or window when it gets close. 

2) Beef up vultures' ranged attack a bit and have them (periodically) agro on zombies too. Their AoE ranged attack would be landing all over the place creating chaos and breaching defenses in places you may not expect. Don't make them carpet-bombing death machines....just agro 5-10% of the time on some poor zombie that they thought looked too fresh

3) We've got exploding cops, putrid puss spewing zombies and suicide vest zombies; I don't think it'd be a great leap to put a Crawling Pustule zombie in the game. Imagine a crawler/torso which was infected like a cop, but can haul itself up walls. Slow, weak, but will explode like a cop if you let it. You'd need to watch for these everywhere and/or create defenses against them. They wouldn't be zombie engineers, but they would path in three dimensions to you.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

Your evil is spectacular, beautiful and mesmerizing in its simplicity.  *passes over her soul* 

I'm actually appreciating the changes made for 20.1 and wanted to mention how very much I appreciate the bookshelf change as well as the additional mailbox books.  The bookshelves were much needed though I'd imagine the mailboxes will be very slightly tuned a bit more.  Thank you very much for all your hard work!  Everything is running beautifully for me with the update.

 

[Blake_]

It’s still just entities. Every case you listed showed entities. A falling block is different than a placed block. Regular blocks are not falling off the world.

Give them some time. ALL fixes are “supposed fixes” until they bear up under rigorous play. This is what experimental is for— to determine if the supposed fixes did in fact fix those things on a large scale. It’s not advised to just assume that if something is in the fixed section that it truly is forever fixed and done. It takes testing over time to determine that. 

Over time you say? Nah, just standing underground, in a player-made POI, cave or underground tunnel is sufficient for this issue to go on a rampage. Some mesh loading issue may also occur in multiplayer, by going fast in several directions with vehicles.

So yeah, just repro it with this:

Spoiler

@faatal

I have a repro stress test for the entities falling through the world that you might find definitive to check if there still are issues with the "falling through the world" fix:

1. Spawn 64 or more Zds in the same location in a biome (desert is best as it has low-hp blocks further down forcing the issue in the fastest way ).

2. Go into god mode to make it quick and place yourself directly 30-50 blocks below the spawned entities making sure they all see you and they are digging for you.

3. Notice that the crowd of zds starts going towards you digging straight down.

4. They will noticeably start falling through the world as some of them surpass the terrain mesh, never to be seen again.

5. In a20 b38 you can very well see 15 or more of those 64 entities fall down due to this issue in that particular situation. 

I hope this stresses your stress test even more, lol.

In 20.1 exp the issue of many entities falling through the world still happens. Not fixed.

And proof of concept if testers feel lazy:



Those are 64 radiated bikers, a common amount of entities when a screamer comes with her family for Christmas. Notice that we are talking about 20% falling down in the desert, and around 10% in other biomes with harder floor.

 

[Star69]

Interesting….in another post a player was seeing stuff fall through player blocks but not the ground and that stuff was falling less frequently with 20.1 than 20. Sounds like things are better for some but not all people. I’m comfortable saying the correct tweak will come at some point. I’ll just keep picking up my vehicles when not driving and watch out for zombies fighting while standing inside a block.

 

[Lord Morphleyes]

If I were to play a game called Deathrace2525 some of my notions about the game would involve vehicles, or at least a race. It would likely be in the future. If it turned out to be a sim involving pastel anthropomorphic Volkswagens (with cute German accents) I think I'd be putting my lack of immersion on the developer.

Please, for the love of all that is sacred,  tell me that you made this up.  Thats just wrong man, wrong. 

I seen a bear shake a tree once to get a bee hive to fall so a zombie attacking something that is below someone ita trying to get to seems reasonable to me.  

Who's to say that them bashing a support isn't the physical action of them trying to climb up but there dumb zombie brains only know smash.  

 

[POCKET951]

so after playing 20.1 on a brand new server, the  255+ gamestage loot feels so much better. 

how ever there is still no .44 magnuma ammo in any loot containers (zombies bags, tier 3/4/5 containers/munitons boxes etc)

I know it is a confirmed bug but when will this be fixed?

 

[faatal]

@faatal

I have a repro stress test for the entities falling through the world that you might find definitive to check if there still are issues with the "falling through the world" fix:

1. Spawn 64 or more Zds in the same location in a biome (desert is best as it has low-hp blocks further down forcing the issue in the fastest way ).

2. Go into god mode to make it quick and place yourself directly 30-50 blocks below the spawned entities making sure they all see you and they are digging for you.

3. Notice that the crowd of zds starts going towards you digging straight down.

4. They will noticeably start falling through the world as some of them surpass the terrain mesh, never to be seen again.

5. In a20 b38 you can very well see 15 or more of those 64 entities fall down due to this issue in that particular situation. 

I hope this stresses your stress test even more, lol.

In 20.1 exp the issue of many entities falling through the world still happens. Not fixed.

This is a different test than I was doing, since I used the most common case for testing and time is limited since we are wanting to get some experimental versions out there. Now that destroy area changes are in, I'll try this.

Interesting….in another post a player was seeing stuff fall through player blocks but not the ground and that stuff was falling less frequently with 20.1 than 20. Sounds like things are better for some but not all people. I’m comfortable saying the correct tweak will come at some point. I’ll just keep picking up my vehicles when not driving and watch out for zombies fighting while standing inside a block.

Terrain or normal block colliders are similar, so the bug applies to either.

 

[Blake_]

This is a different test than I was doing, since I used the most common case for testing and time is limited since we are wanting to get some experimental versions out there. Now that destroy area changes are in, I'll try this.

This was the worst case scenario, so if that repro stops working, then you'll know you fixed it. It's a hard nut to crack though. Clearing and respawning the entities as they fall might be the treatment and not the cure. And/or treating entities with their own "vehicle manager relocator" might prove to be too expensive.

 

[SirScott]

Drones are very buggy.

 

[stretch611]

So, I'm curious... (in regards to the game only )

Has TFP [SIZE=14.6px]received[/SIZE] a SteamDeck to play with?

In regards to that will 7 days be supported on a SteamDeck? (Linux is already supported which *in theory* should make it easy; while the SteamDeck is not as powerful as a modern desktop it does seem decent and the 720p resolution should make it not need outrageous horsepower)

Will Vulkan graphics ever be fully [SIZE=14.6px]supported[/SIZE]? It has been an option in the launcher, but [SIZE=14.6px]labeled[/SIZE] as not fully supported. I have had good success testing using it on an older machine with AMD graphics, but nVidia drivers do seem to have a few random lockups with it. Vulkan does seem to add as much as a 50% increase in FPS over OpenGL.

Or is Vulkan support based on the support that it [SIZE=14.6px]receives[/SIZE] from Unity?

I'v noticed a few "quirks" in a20... Should I file bug reports? Sometimes I wonder if a change was made and they might be working as intended. (e.g. I know that all workbenches being found destroyed is now intentional.)

One quirk is that when [SIZE=14.6px]resetting[/SIZE] a poi (but starting a quest at that poi,) that vending machines, cabinets, and appliances never change. In past Alphas when reseting a poi, working vending machines would sometimes be [SIZE=14.6px]replaced[/SIZE] with broken ones and vice-versa. I have not seen that happen yet in a20 and not sure if that is intentional. In the same reset, It seems that open cabinets and open stoves always reset to staying open; again in prior alphas some would change.

Should the same poi ever spawn in a single city? iirc this was something to report in a19... I found 2 or 3 of the same poi in my starting city. (Though I have to confirm it is an actual poi instead of part of a tile. It is the motorhome with a police cruiser and a shed in front of it. (I remember seeing this poi back in a19 when the police cruiser still had a distinctive paint job; it still says police cruiser when looting but lacks the distinctive appearance now)

I could also mention random slowdowns in fps/performance, but I have a guess more than one person has mentioned this already.

Hope this is the right place to ask these questions...

Thanks