PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

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40 minutes ago, Kalex said:

Her comments about casual gamers are spot on. Hell, I have almost 2000 hours in the game (since Alpha 6) and the AI changes to destroy mode are @%$#ing me off to the point I don't want want to do BM hordes any more and I'm not the only one on our server that feels this way. I just listened to my husband giving a hour long (and still going) rant on the subject and he has been playing since pre-Alpha.

It seems that on solo games they are coming out of destroy mode but when they enter destroy area mode on dedicated servers, they never come out of it. Even of Liz's SP test game, she has an example where they had two paths to her and none of the zeds would even try to get to her. 50% destroy area seems a bit ridiculously much and with them never coming out of destroy mode, all of them will being in destroy mode in very swift order. That's not any fun to play. I watched 1 BM zed spawn within eyesight 1 block above the ground, fall and ragdoll then permanently enter destroy mode with no damage to the zed taken.

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Not sure how it was in A19 in comparison but the behavior is supposed to be varied vs all AI with 100% identical behavior.

Skimmed through that video and the streamers observations was very subjective on a debug function they had recently only found out about.  BM AI is also different then normal AI so what was shown and commented on is incomplete.

AI will likely continue to evolve especially once bandits get added into the mix.  I understand change is difficult, however it is important to understand these things are a work in progress and should expect them to change until gold.

Regardless, If anyone feels they have encountered some sort of bug or inconsisteny, please direct them to the link in the red banner above and fill out a complete bug report so the QA team can attempt to reproduce the issue and get it in front of a dev as soon as possible.

 
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So, uhhh... Gazz... you guys are not going to nerf those 3x3 blocks right? 

Before I thought they were kinda OP and did not care, but now I am playing an agility playthrough, with a base only really using those blocks, and I really like it. 

Using the new blocks kinda makes starting agility just as strong as strength now... agility might even be the strongest start.  Requiring fewer materials means faster bases, and easier transition to steel blocks.  I would normally not even think of using steel, heh. 

It probably only matters on the hardest modes, and only when you actively repair your base. 

Having another starting option, when playing on maxed settings, is really nice.  Do not nerf it please.  😉

 
Lord Morphleyes said:
So it was not just bad rng? We had our first demolishers last blood moon and one was kind enough to drop a red bag we all gathered around and watched our lucky looter open the bag. Just the same general stuff and our very first hazmat coat. 
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I've seen probably 30 red/orange bags in my game so far and they seem to just have more of the same.  More stacks of stuff, but it  hasn't been better quality.  I recently made a blood moon base in the wasteland and I'm finally seeing some weapons drop, but still no armor.   

 
Laz Man said:
Not sure how it was in A19 in comparison but the behavior is supposed to be varied vs all AI with 100% identical behavior.

Skimmed through that video and the streamers observations was very subjective on a debug function they had recently only found out about.  BM AI is also different then normal AI so what was shown and commented on is incomplete.

AI will likely continue to evolve especially once bandits get added into the mix.  I understand change is difficult, however it is important to understand these things are a work in progress and should expect them to change until gold.

Regardless, If anyone feels they have encountered some sort of bug or inconsisteny, please direct them to the link in the red banner above and fill out a complete bug report so the QA team can attempt to reproduce the issue and get it in front of a dev as soon as possible.
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We weren't seeing any of these AI problems on our dedi in A19. The issue seems to be them not exiting destroyarea mode once they enter it so eventually you end up with all of them in destroyarea and none of them pathing to you.

And since I use a UI mod (due to disliking the default UI as being too difficult for me to see), I'm not allowed to fill out a bug report.

 
Damocles said:
When I implemented such an origin shifting, I used a "stress mode" where the origin shifted every couple of steps, and also randomly every couple of seconds, shifting it by a random amount. This was giving good quick feedback for bugs in the positioning, easily visible by objects getting stuck, falling or shaking, or traces missing the geometry.
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Yep, that is what I did, time based shifting that I typically ran at .2 seconds. Stress testing is important and programmers often don't abuse their systems enough.

The Gronk said:
A sleeping rigidbody will wake if another rigidbody gets close, otherwise they aren't calculated for collisions to save on cpu cycles.  The failure of raycasts to interact with them is what leads me to believe they're asleep.  I'll admit, without actually looking at the code I'm aiming in the dark here  🙂
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The rays are not hitting the ground. The ground does not have a rigid body. It is just a mesh collider.

 
Kalex said:
We weren't seeing any of these AI problems on our dedi in A19. The issue seems to be them not exiting destroyarea mode once they enter it so eventually you end up with all of them in destroyarea and none of them pathing to you.

And since I use a UI mod (due to disliking the default UI as being too difficult for me to see), I'm not allowed to fill out a bug report.
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The problem was that falling AI that had a path to the player were not trying to enter destroy area due to a bug. They would only enter destroy area on a long path, which is a fairly low percent. Now that the code is fixed, you are seeing the full extent of it working as intended. Falling zombies also don't just enter destroy area, but can trigger others into destroy area. Dedi is no different than SP, since AI only runs on the server, but with the increased zeds multiple players will get, it means increased chances the of them triggering each other.

This just sounds like the percents need to come down and maybe cap the sharing.

 
zztong said:
  • You cannot arrange to put your custom Part into a list of Parts on a vanilla Tile as you would have to change that Tile in the editor and there would be no good way to distribute that. You could copy the vanilla Tile and distribute your copy.
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That's the main issue I see with how it is currently. I would think since tiles are set up to handle any combination of POIs that fit the spawn size for that tile can be used, why not use that same system for the parts? I don't want to have to convert and include numerous tiles with my mod just to get a couple custom deco parts to show up.

 
Kalex said:
Her comments about casual gamers are spot on. Hell, I have almost 2000 hours in the game (since Alpha 6) and the AI changes to destroy mode are @%$#ing me off to the point I don't want want to do BM hordes any more and I'm not the only one on our server that feels this way. I just listened to my husband giving a hour long (and still going) rant on the subject and he has been playing since pre-Alpha.

It seems that on solo games they are coming out of destroy mode but when they enter destroy area mode on dedicated servers, they never come out of it. Even of Liz's SP test game, she has an example where they had two paths to her and none of the zeds would even try to get to her. 50% destroy area seems a bit ridiculously much and with them never coming out of destroy mode, all of them will being in destroy mode in very swift order. That's not any fun to play. I watched 1 BM zed spawn within eyesight 1 block above the ground, fall and ragdoll then permanently enter destroy mode with no damage to the zed taken.
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I can't say I've seen this behaviour, but what I eded up doing to prevent them from @%$#ting on my main pillar, was placing a sledge turret where they fall to snap them out of it.

 
Jost Amman said:
Did you experience this in SP or MP?

I'm asking because I only play SP and I only experienced n.1 once in a long time.

I don't know why other people see these anomalies so often.

If it was an MP issue, it could be explained maybe with the pathing data is not being synced properly between host and client? Just a guess.
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I get that both single player and in multiplayer :)

I run across them all the time. It makes me long for the Alpha 16 AI where they ran towards you and attacked you. Having them run away from me to fight a tree or a rock, or just forget about me, really is jarring :)

 
Vedui said:
I get that both single player and in multiplayer :)

I run across them all the time. It makes me long for the Alpha 16 AI where they ran towards you and attacked you. Having them run away from me to fight a tree or a rock, or just forget about me, really is jarring :)
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Then it must be about the way we play. Maybe if you do some things instead of others the AI "bug" can be experienced, but again, I don't experience some of the behaviors you describe at all and only sometimes I see zeds getting stuck in destroy mode.

My horde base is laid out in a way they almost never get stuck into destroy mode. :)  

20220118200911_1.jpg

 
Haven't had a chance to play yet. Has the vehicle teleporting fix made it into A20.1 B5? I thought the line "Origin shift could cause objects to fall through world" might be that fix

 
A20.1 EXP




I am feeling that so much is to easily obtainable either from one POI or the merchant(specially now one is in every city - do we need so many ?).

The enthesis for exploration is mainly for ingredients and they shouldn't be so easily found so quickly else the process of progression becomes unchallenging and the game stagnates very quickly, after all this game is a survival is it not ?

I found the absence and scarceness of Acid for instance in the last build was neat, but I noticed you gone and upped the chance and low and behold first new game and POI I find ACID and the merchant is also selling it.

I mean at this rate you may as well just unload all the items needed for everything at the first car we come across and get it over with.

 
So the story now is:

-Players cheesed the game with the zombie drop hallways. 

-TFP counter cheesed the cheesy bases with rage mode.

-Now players are mad that they've been out cheesed.

The new super cheesy solution (beside just turning BM off, because that would be too easy??) is to make your base a zombie drop floater (using sheets).

Yup, sounds fun to me!

 
Aldranon said:
So the story now is:

-Players cheesed the game with the zombie drop hallways. 

-TFP counter cheesed the cheesy bases with rage mode.

-Now players are mad that they've been out cheesed.

The new super cheesy solution (beside just turning BM off, because that would be too easy??) is to make your base a zombie drop floater (using sheets).

Yup, sounds fun to me!
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And the next thing you know. every ultra-thin block suddenly has no vertical support and lower HP, and/or the Zs discover a new passion for digging when they find themselves between a pair of them...

Have you considered giving them a very short path and just keeping them perpetually stunned with electric fences? 

 
Jay_ombie said:
A20.1 EXP


I am feeling that so much is to easily obtainable either from one POI or the merchant(specially now one is in every city - do we need so many ?).

...

I found the absence and scarceness of Acid for instance in the last build was neat, but I noticed you gone and upped the chance and low and behold first new game and POI I find ACID and the merchant is also selling it.
Click to expand...


Although I have >12K hours I try and like to play very 'averagely'.  Not quite a noob, but I also don't (almost never - except for tests) build 'super' bases, raid poi's for specific items, etc.

In my 8 run throughs (up to Lvl 30-45ish) of a20b238 I got about 1 acid every 10 levels/days.  (including a trader or two or three very late)  I have no problem with them adjusting acid and beakers up slightly.  I even resorted to using acid/beaker recipes on my last run-through because they were so ridiculously rare.  (out of ~42 trader visits I was able to purchase 3)  Are you playing standard 60 min cycle days?  (which 'hurts' with traders, but 'helps' with loots)  Are most settings at default?

I don't disagree with the trader frequency, but I also suspect TFP isn't done balancing RWG, cities and traders.

and, btw, am I the only one that no longer has an A20 stable branch in Steam?  Only have the latest experimental branch.  (which I was going to switch to anyways - but I didn't need to...)

 
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I believe the latest stable release is always achieved by opting out of the betas. At least that’s what I’ve always thought anyway.

 
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