PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Ranzera]

When you're convinced that everyone else is going by some crazy kind of logic it is time to start questioning your own...

Nobody is bending over backwards. The way it is makes sense. Your scenario could make sense if it was written that way. Bandits do tend to raid stuff-- so how could there possibly be anything left in the wasteland? Because they also tend to hoard and stockpile stuff-- just like we do. If you would stop bending backwards to try and justify the logic you are trying pass off as the only one that makes any sense you would be able to see other perspectives as well.

Ahh yes, pointing out how humans have behaved in history is bending over backwards. Another quality reply Roland.

 

[dishmal]

Love updates to the game, no matter what they are, since this is an incredible game.  Disappointed to yet again not see any mention of multiplayer tweaking for cheating, clipping, lagging, dedicated servers, etc.  Maybe you're doing them and just not listing them in the updates?  Remember, this is not just a single player game .

 

[Khalagar]

I've been lurking in this thread for a few days and have almost read the entire mess, i forget where you said to put suggestions, but me and my wife are new players we started a few weeks ago and are over 100 hours at this point, thought you'd like to know that it took us 100 hours to figure out that you can share quests. don't know whether that's helpful.

Yeah, there are a few things that not only stump new players, but even veterans often don't know about, like the ability to sort loot in your backpack and stashes by clicking the tiny, near hidden, auto sort button.

New players also basically never know you can hold R when placing a block and access the shape menu and advanced rotations etc. Haybales negating fall damage up to 16 blocks of fall height is another useful one.

We probably need to make a list of "Helpful / hidden features new players don't know about". Some should even be part of the tutorial or get a tooltip pop up with info on them as they are quite useful once you know they exist

 

[Ranzera]

Technically 5 biomes are axed, since caves, hub cities, water and other forest variant were also biomes too  I miss the plains though and hub cities.

My take on your progression is that whilst I can see that as very much closer to a realistic way of survival, (in fact I like that it could even be made into a Backstreet Boys Reunion Tour) I could see that the early dogs and ferals could be a turn off for those just trying to learn the ropes unless they are nerfed in early days on HP and damage.

The problem with having bandits in forested areas and assuming bandits have looted everything there already, if there is no loot in green areas then there would be less player incentive to visit since your only real reward is a green patch of land with high risk and low loot, unless bandit loot tables would be buffed a lot so you could get decked out after a couple of forts destroyed. You'd be better off in the biome you came from.

I agree with you though this would be far more realistic and perhaps hardcore fans and experienced FPS players would really like this. But in order to cater to newer entries I think at the start there should be some guarantee that in first few days enemies in your starter waste biome can't spawn something in that you aren't prepped for, ie ranged bandit spawns 2 hours after you spawn in on day 1 and proceeds to maul you in 2 shots or a dog comes out of nowhere and mauls you as you try killing it with a crappy club only to die in 3 or 4 bites etc.

Maybe gamestaged biome spawns could be a way to handle this so that only after a certain level the baddies get tougher but you are more than likely to have a weapon capable of handling them if used correctly. 

I agree that it doesn't make sense to consider where loot might be getting picked over as a point of contention, but that's something other people keep pushing and I feel obligated to respond to. There's no way to talk about that, that doesn't immediately turn into circular logic. By all logic, after 7 years, everything should be completely picked over and there'd be nothing to find. But with that logic, you don't even have a game to play. A concession has to be made somewhere, by everyone. However, it doesn't make sense that destroyed areas would have better loot. 

Gamestaged Biome spawns is a great idea for a Backstreet Boys Reunion Tour. I think I'll see if I can work that into my Backstreet Boys Reunion Tour I have been cobbling together.

I'd think ferals make more sense in Desert, Snow and Burnt Forest biomes. Places where there's newly infected zeds. In the wasteland it'd make sense that everything there is starving or long time infected and unable to move quickly. Ferals in the marginal biomes that the Bandits raid but don't live in and thusly can get overwhelmed in smaller numbers.

 

[mdf25]

Love updates to the game, no matter what they are, since this is an incredible game.  Disappointed to yet again not see any mention of multiplayer tweaking for cheating, clipping, lagging, dedicated servers, etc.  Maybe you're doing them and just not listing them in the updates?  Remember, this is not just a single player game .

I think fataal mentioned that a fix regarding the insane reach in SP and MP which was to do with animation and hits registering not syncing up quite right. So that should be better in A19.

 

[MechanicalLens]

deleted

 

[Khalagar]

Problem with manuals was already mentioned, literally nobody reads them. Even getting people to do a tutorial is really hard, they would rather just struggle for 2 hours trying to figure it out on their own, fail, and then call it a bad product and leave a bad review. Just the nature of the beast (humans)

Tooltips, context menus, and super ridiculously obviously ultra user friendly UI is basically the only way to get derps to learn a system. I'm a great fan of gigantic red arrows in the guides I write for work, I've seen these being pretty common in modern games now days too. Where it pauses the game, and has giant arrows pointing at the button saying "CLICK ON THIS TO SORT YOUR INVENTORY" and "HOLD R WHEN PLACING A BLOCK TO ACCESS THE ADVANCED ROTATION AND SHAPE MENU"  and won't let you past until you demonstrate 2nd grade reading level skills

 

[MechanicalLens]

deleted

 

[Khalagar]

Curious, do you have a solution then?

The time stopping giant arrows basically, lol. On PC a context menu over some of the buttons and stats would also be handy, not sure how it'd work for consoles without cursors, but who cares about consoles, they require a completely different UI anyway so they are a ton of work and have to have specific solutions unique just for them. Well, giant time stopping arrows would work on consoles too mostly.

Giant arrows + radial blur for dramatic purposes to keep the ADHD kids interest, and short snappy instructions that even the densest idiot could understand is the best solution IMO. Probably at least a 45% success rate, but I work with end users daily and have learned to never under estimate how badly people can bungle something. Even with a bullet point list of steps to follow and giant red arrow pointing to each button they need to press, I still have to remote into people's computers from time to time to literally move their mouse for them and click on the buttons ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[MechanicalLens]

deleted

 

[Khalagar]

Which is exactly why you can't disable tutorials in a lot of games or they are buried really deep in a menu. Your average joe first time player typically isn't going to dig deeper than the graphics setting menu and just make sure console settings like low FoV and DoF and Bloom are turned off and make sure the resolution is right

 

[Roland]

Ahh yes, pointing out how humans have behaved in history is bending over backwards. Another quality reply Roland.

When I said "Nobody is bending over backwards" it was my truthful reply. We aren't and I don't think you are either. When I told you to stop bending over backwards I was just playing off of your original statement. As I said, I can see and I understand the logic of your position and if the Fun Pimps decided to go that way I could live with it. Can you really not see the logic of the way they are actually going? It is your insistance that everybody else is crazy to not agree with your logic that I'm pointing out.

 

[MechanicalLens]

deleted

 

[Roland]

Nerds gunna nerd...

 

[Blake_]

When I said "Nobody is bending over backwards" it was my truthful reply. We aren't and I don't think you are either. When I told you to stop bending over backwards I was just playing off of your original statement. As I said, I can see and I understand the logic of your position and if the Fun Pimps decided to go that way I could live with it. Can you really not see the logic of the way they are actually going? It is your insistance that everybody else is crazy to not agree with your logic that I'm pointing out.

I demand cookies instead of candies, thank you very much. Here's the reason:

Earth is flat, it is a known fact, so why not just put cookies in the Wasteland biome instead of landmines?

Wasn't  the dev's point to make the Wasteland a high risk- high reward kind of place? 

Everything is solved with my idea. Cookie bandits, cookie traders, military trucks with cookie wheels, you name it, I've got ideas for ages.

Strowling around inside the depths of the doom biome when... all of a sudden, the cookie you've been looking for to make that extremely complex chocolate spaguetti superfood is ripe for the taking. Please, please.

Also, please, please, bring back a look-alike Zd of Sheldon Cooper that bores us to death . Fun Pimps, please fix. 

 

[Demonoid74]

Nerds gunna nerd...

 

[madmole]

My examples may have been poorly chosen. By all means keep the amazing trading organization shipment we have now, the original question was more about making it less of a "follow the compass game" and more about "think logically where the room he talked about might be in the house" (Garage ? Probably in the basement. Bedroom ? Definitely first floor. Etc...). Right now there's virtually no thinking involved, it's always the same package, you always follow the same indication that pinpoints to the exact location. Going by your argument of "immersiveness", I fail to see how the current system of having a package located on my compass more precisely than my 5G phone can pinpoint my position is at all immersive.

I guess I'll just wait to see what you have in mind for the future regarding quests. If anything is supposed to change in that area of course.

People are stupid. I'm stupid. You can't find the damn container, they need an icon to take them to it. I cut half a house down trying to find the hidden container, its just not fun. The fun part is getting there, and killing the zombies and getting the loot and getting back and getting your reward. It shouldn't turn into search for half an hour real time Myst mini game, people who buy this game want action not that. New players and even veterans cannot find the hidden satchel a lot of the time. I know its simplistic, but it doesn't need to be vague for the sake of appeal to advanced users who are good at those boring mini games. We want the game to have mass appeal, not be realistic or over designed for "indy game fans" who like clunky hard to use systems because they are smart/good at such things.

The future will have "blow up the building" where you reach key points and activate them placing c4 on them or something, and maybe assassination quests where you take down the leader of a compound, etc.

 

[Jost Amman]

Yeah, there are a few things that not only stump new players, but even veterans often don't know about, like the ability to sort loot in your backpack and stashes by clicking the tiny, near hidden, auto sort button.

New players also basically never know you can hold R when placing a block and access the shape menu and advanced rotations etc. Haybales negating fall damage up to 16 blocks of fall height is another useful one.

We probably need to make a list of "Helpful / hidden features new players don't know about". Some should even be part of the tutorial or get a tooltip pop up with info on them as they are quite useful once you know they exist

An here you go...

https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/2263565217511162787/

 

[madmole]

I hope she will end up better than that UMA version,

any chance you can keep in the old Trader Jen model? I really like that artdesign.

THe old one wasn't UMA, it just wasn't high quality like this. No the new trader Jen actually looks like a woman, not a skinny man with long hair.

Love updates to the game, no matter what they are, since this is an incredible game.  Disappointed to yet again not see any mention of multiplayer tweaking for cheating, clipping, lagging, dedicated servers, etc.  Maybe you're doing them and just not listing them in the updates?  Remember, this is not just a single player game .

The first page is not the release notes.

 

[Ranzera]

When I said "Nobody is bending over backwards" it was my truthful reply. We aren't and I don't think you are either. When I told you to stop bending over backwards I was just playing off of your original statement. As I said, I can see and I understand the logic of your position and if the Fun Pimps decided to go that way I could live with it. Can you really not see the logic of the way they are actually going? It is your insistance that everybody else is crazy to not agree with your logic that I'm pointing out.

There's two things to unpack there and I have different answers to each.

Do I see the logic in why a game developer made a game that works the way that this is working. Yes! This is a path so traveled in game development that it's paved and has rest stops every 2 miles. This is a formula repeated almost since video games have been made. It's also why most games are boring with very short life cycles. This game avoids this a little by nature of being a survival game. I'd say more in that regard but I'm trying not to get into Pimp Dreams territory.

Do I see the logic in making games work this way. No, not really. This method is attempting to make illogical human behaviors make logical sense and then prop that up with further logic defying elements. It requires a lot of suspension of disbelief and clearly most everyone is happy to do so. So I guess in that regard there isn't a problem. However, it will never succeed in trying to make an undesirable area become popular. The best approach to that is to acknowledge that it's unpopular, undesirable and give you a reason for being there in the first place while acknowledging you want to leave and even reward you for doing so. Wasteland gets used by everyone for at least a little while and forces players to engage in your game mechanics to get the things they want. Carrot and Stick working in unison.

I don't think other's are crazy to not agree with my logic, I think they either don't understand how humans work, or they don't care. I like to struggle for the right reasons, believable reasons. Adding bandits to the story gives the opportunity to emulate a human aspect. I want to see what my enemy has, envy it and fight for it. I want my enemy to see me as a threat and take measures to protect what they have from me.

People are stupid. I'm stupid. You can't find the damn container, they need an icon to take them to it. I cut half a house down trying to find the hidden container, its just not fun. The fun part is getting there, and killing the zombies and getting the loot and getting back and getting your reward. It shouldn't turn into search for half an hour real time Myst mini game, people who buy this game want action not that. New players and even veterans cannot find the hidden satchel a lot of the time. I know its simplistic, but it doesn't need to be vague for the sake of appeal to advanced users who are good at those boring mini games. We want the game to have mass appeal, not be realistic or over designed for "indy game fans" who like clunky hard to use systems because they are smart/good at such things.

The future will have "blow up the building" where you reach key points and activate them placing c4 on them or something, and maybe assassination quests where you take down the leader of a compound, etc.

That quest sounds fantastic. I'm really looking forward to it.