PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

Good points u brought up there, but I'm all for random events, the game needs it to break from the loot>mine>build>horde routine, by day 30 I'm thinking of what character to build next. Cmon it's TFPs, there's already strippers and nurses in the game, I lure one of each down into a holding cell...for research ofc.



If he's got no dukes he's going to be my next farm plot.

Or girl?

 

[SnowDog1942]

As much as we all want that INT 10 item.. we have to be stingy. Keep looking.

True true, what was I thinking, getting soft in my old age, luckily I’m still hard in certain ways.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think the only way to add more trees would be make some super thick trees and have them contribute to the occlusion.

I'm pretty sure that's how games like Green Hell manage to have so many. Probably not worth it for this game since the theme doesn't depend on dense vegetation.

 

[Doctor3D]

Its more of a predicted movement setup. I'm traveling down this road, lets spawn a wandering merchant or damsel in distress. I'm going to a POI in the wasteland, lets spawn a group of guys outside his POI before he gets there so he has to deal with that. Oh an air drop, lets make some bandits go there too. If the player doesn't go there, it despawns, no big deal.
However you don't get to clear anything, ever. Its a zombie apocalypse. Maybe a naked guy will come to your front door begging to be let in who led a horde right to your base. Its not even meant to replace biome spawners, its meant to make you forget about them because they were so lame.

This just means you're technically making players nothing more than just a walking spawner. There is nothing you can do to control the encounters. This is silly to me. You're just walking around and zombies randomly spawn on you without you being able to actually influence the situation at all.

Before, (I'm talking A9,10,11) more specifically - you would try to penetrate the wasteland and it was very hard to do on the first few days. There were dogs and cops everywhere - so to successfully get through and loot - you had to be careful, well-prepared, really good at the game or any combination - but you had control and a decision about whether or not to even take on that risk.

If you walked into a town - you'd see several dozen zombies all around the town preventing clear access to most of the POIs - so you'd try to clear the town by taking on a few at a time and trying not to alert too many at once. Again, a clear and controlled situation where you are making decisions and things are occuring as a result of how you make that choice (or not).

But, with this thing you're proposing? Everything is 'fake' - you're walking around trying to be careful and the game just randomly spawns a group on you without you having any control or not - it wasn't because of the area you were in - it wasn't because of how much noise you were making - it wasn't because you were carrying raw meat on your belt - nope - it's because the game randomly fired a script and started spawning crap in front of you. That's incredibly cheap to me and just makes it all gamey - especially if it does it at really akward times and places like in locations where you literally just removed threats from the area and then you turn around and that script fires and you've got a random horde all over you.

 

[Jedo]

Or girl?

Either way, seed is getting put in them.

- - - Updated - - -

This just means you're technically making players nothing more than just a walking spawner. There is nothing you can do to control the encounters...
Before, (I'm talking A9,10,11)...you had control and a decision about whether or not to even take on that risk...

If you walked into a town - you'd see several dozen zombies all around the town preventing clear access to most of the POIs - so you'd try to clear the town by taking on a few at a time and trying not to alert too many at once. Again, a clear and controlled situation where you are making decisions and things are occuring as a result of how you make that choice (or not).

But, with this thing you're proposing? Everything is 'fake' - you're walking around trying to be careful and the game just randomly spawns a group on you without you having any control or not...

Cause, you know, the apocalypse is so predictable...

 

[wolfbain5]

well, started a new world with the new build. day 6 I finally get a weapon upgrade from stone spear or primitive bow. only made those 2, going with found weapons. I have been very unlucky on weapon finds, even in containers, lots of ammo tho. Been very lucky on crafting materials. bird cage is going up nicely, I havent crafter a single piece of cobble or smelted any stone and I have 3.6 k cobble and 3400ish cement. luckily the trader has a mixer, so a quarry was made for stone and sand production. The shamway factory first floor was very productive. 1085 cobble from there alone.

Day ^ tho I was tired of these 2 weapons and decided the army base with the truck outside the barracks was where I had to go. I took a short stack of spikes with me underground. 5 to be exact. was a good choice, got a yellow wood bow, a faulty junk turret and an iron spear out of it. We will see where this leads. night time of day 6, back into the quarry, night time tunnelling through a mountain actually draws attention.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Cmon it's TFPs, there's already strippers and nurses in the game, I lure one of each down into a holding cell...for research ofc.

The real advantages of punching teeth out and the dismemberment perks during the apoc.

 

[Laz Man]

And that Burning mod, the flames are practically burning my face off and I want to keep my face, I'm bloody gorgeous.

Seriosuly!!!!!! Its insane, takes up like 50% of my screen lol..

 

[Doctor3D]

Cause, you know, the apocalypse is so predictable...

There are many predictable situations within an unpredictable world..

(Story time)

You're in the zombie apocalypse, and as you're traversing the land with your grumbling belly, and sun-chapped lips, you happen upon a supermarket. It looks almost new. It briefly reminds you of simpler times that you took for granted. You crouch down, and spend the next several minutes cautiously looking all around you. Thankfully, the area all round you is flat with no trees giving you a visible sight-line for miles, not a single zombie, the only thing you ever saw moving was a dirty plastic cup taking a quiet, rolling ride across the asphalt on a gentle breeze. You think to yourself, "Well, it's now or never, the coast is clear outside, at least" You look all around once last time, checking behind you as well and then as you face the super-market again - a horde of zombies is there. "How is this possible!!" you ask out loud. "There's absolutely no way that any zombie could have traversed that parking lot during the two seconds I turned around."

Of course even in a fictional situation such as the zombie apocalypse - a shambling zombie has predictability. You can predict where they can possibly be or can't possibly be based on their movement speed.

 

[Locusta]

This just means you're technically making players nothing more than just a walking spawner. There is nothing you can do to control the encounters. This is silly to me. You're just walking around and zombies randomly spawn on you without you being able to actually influence the situation at all.
Before, (I'm talking A9,10,11) more specifically - you would try to penetrate the wasteland and it was very hard to do on the first few days. There were dogs and cops everywhere - so to successfully get through and loot - you had to be careful, well-prepared, really good at the game or any combination - but you had control and a decision about whether or not to even take on that risk.

If you walked into a town - you'd see several dozen zombies all around the town preventing clear access to most of the POIs - so you'd try to clear the town by taking on a few at a time and trying not to alert too many at once. Again, a clear and controlled situation where you are making decisions and things are occuring as a result of how you make that choice (or not).

But, with this thing you're proposing? Everything is 'fake' - you're walking around trying to be careful and the game just randomly spawns a group on you without you having any control or not - it wasn't because of the area you were in - it wasn't because of how much noise you were making - it wasn't because you were carrying raw meat on your belt - nope - it's because the game randomly fired a script and started spawning crap in front of you. That's incredibly cheap to me and just makes it all gamey - especially if it does it at really akward times and places like in locations where you literally just removed threats from the area and then you turn around and that script fires and you've got a random horde all over you.

Exactly!

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to leave zombies out of the encounter system. Keep it to random traders, helping people in distress and bandits. Those would be easier to “fake” so to speak than large hordes of zombies magically appearing.

Loc

 

[Roland]

Everything is 'fake'

You could say the same about every process when looking under the hood. Look at leveled probabilities of loot. Someone unaware of how the game decides what's in a loot box will think it is natural when they can find better stuff than they did once their level, perks, and gamestage work together to increase those probabilities for rarer loot. But if they stop and think about the idea that if they open a box vs someone else standing next to them who is lower level and that the box will then contain different things depending on who opens the box then they too feel like everything is fake as well.

Don't look behind the curtain or think about what is happening behind the curtain and things will usually feel more natural. Madmole never said that zombies would be randomly spawned on you. He said they would be spawned ahead of you and if you never intersect with them then they will despawn. He also mentioned that it could be used to spawn other types of encounters with NPCs and eventually bandits.

You talked about how wonderful it was that there would already be zombies around a POI when you got there and that is exactly what the encounter system would do. It would place zombies in your path ahead of the time that you get there. If you deviate and never go there then the zombies will be despawned. What you seem to be describing are wandering hordes which we already have and are different than random encounters as has been explained. If the random encounters are able to be implemented well then the world should feel once again like it is full of zombies without the game having to keep so many zombies alive and accounted for in surrounding chunks that you never see or notice anyway.

 

[Roland]

Exactly!
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to leave zombies out of the encounter system. Keep it to random traders, helping people in distress and bandits. Those would be easier to “fake” so to speak than large hordes of zombies magically appearing.

Loc

Who said they would be magically appearing before your eyes? What would be so fake feeling about rounding a corner and seeing 30 zombies standing idle in a pack because the game spawned them there out of sight and before you arrived? If you never rounded that corner the zombies would despawn.

Why are people reading what Madmole wrote about a brand new system we've never seen before and substituting it in their mind with Wandering Hordes that appear on top of you? Every example he has given has the game spawn them ahead of the player along the player's current path so that they are already there when the player approaches their location-- you know how they were already there when we approached a POI or a town? He also said that if the player never approaches then the encounter will be canceled and the entities despawned.

Random encounters isn't a new thing in RPGs. They also don't sound equivalent to wandering hordes from what I have read. Please, people, stop looking at "random encounters" and seeing "wandering hordes"

 

[madmole]

True true, what was I thinking, getting soft in my old age, luckily I’m still hard in certain ways.

If its a low requirement item, sure, but skipping all those perk points to get into steel is huge. I hit each trader every 3 days hoping to find one, I'm on day 36 or so and haven't found one yet, so I cannot make the special K base because I can't get enough steel for the blade traps. I'll probably rig up some dart traps parallel to the walls so pounders get shot.

 

[Jedo]

There are many predictable situations within an unpredictable world....
Of course even in a fictional situation such as the zombie apocalypse - a shambling zombie has predictability. You can predict where they can possibly be or can't possibly be based on their movement speed.

Who said it would be like that? I mean, good job coming up with a hypothetical situation which would prove your point if it ever happened. On the other hand, it is just as likely that you close the distance to the supermarket, hop inside, and just as you start looting, you hear zombies banging on the back door. D’oh! You forgot to check the backside of the store!

Also, what kind of nonsense is it to say “there is predictability in an unpredictable world” in response to “there are things you can’t predict in the apocalypse”? Well, duh! Your statement doesn’t undercut my point. I mean, I basically said, “Murphy’s Law still applies in the apocalypse,” and you said, “I can outsmart Murphy’s Law.” That’s idiotic.

 

[Roland]

There are many predictable situations within an unpredictable world..
(Story time)

You're in the zombie apocalypse, and as you're traversing the land with your grumbling belly, and sun-chapped lips, you happen upon a supermarket. It looks almost new. It briefly reminds you of simpler times that you took for granted. You crouch down, and spend the next several minutes cautiously looking all around you. Thankfully, the area all round you is flat with no trees giving you a visible sight-line for miles, not a single zombie, the only thing you ever saw moving was a dirty plastic cup taking a quiet, rolling ride across the asphalt on a gentle breeze. You think to yourself, "Well, it's now or never, the coast is clear outside, at least" You look all around once last time, checking behind you as well and then as you face the super-market again - a horde of zombies is there. "How is this possible!!" you ask out loud. "There's absolutely no way that any zombie could have traversed that parking lot during the two seconds I turned around."

Of course even in a fictional situation such as the zombie apocalypse - a shambling zombie has predictability. You can predict where they can possibly be or can't possibly be based on their movement speed.

Please show me what Madmole wrote that sounded anything remotely like that. From what I've read that horde of zombies would've spawned before you got into view of the Super-Market and not magically in front of your eyes. If Madmole literally said that the encounter system would be like you describe in your scenario then I'll join you in your indignation. But I think you are grossly misinterpreting the concept that Madmole gave us.

 

[Laz Man]

This just means you're technically making players nothing more than just a walking spawner. There is nothing you can do to control the encounters. This is silly to me. You're just walking around and zombies randomly spawn on you without you being able to actually influence the situation at all.
Before, (I'm talking A9,10,11) more specifically - you would try to penetrate the wasteland and it was very hard to do on the first few days. There were dogs and cops everywhere - so to successfully get through and loot - you had to be careful, well-prepared, really good at the game or any combination - but you had control and a decision about whether or not to even take on that risk.

If you walked into a town - you'd see several dozen zombies all around the town preventing clear access to most of the POIs - so you'd try to clear the town by taking on a few at a time and trying not to alert too many at once. Again, a clear and controlled situation where you are making decisions and things are occuring as a result of how you make that choice (or not).

But, with this thing you're proposing? Everything is 'fake' - you're walking around trying to be careful and the game just randomly spawns a group on you without you having any control or not - it wasn't because of the area you were in - it wasn't because of how much noise you were making - it wasn't because you were carrying raw meat on your belt - nope - it's because the game randomly fired a script and started spawning crap in front of you. That's incredibly cheap to me and just makes it all gamey - especially if it does it at really akward times and places like in locations where you literally just removed threats from the area and then you turn around and that script fires and you've got a random horde all over you.

The old system was not without its fault either though. The draw backs have been mentioned several times already. At the end of the day the system has limitations on the number of zombies/entities alive which makes it unsustainable especially in a MP environment.

 

[Doctor3D]

You could say the same about every process when looking under the hood. Look at leveled probabilities of loot. Someone unaware of how the game decides what's in a loot box will think it is natural when they can find better stuff than they did once their level, perks, and gamestage work together to increase those probabilities for rarer loot. But if they stop and think about the idea that if they open a box vs someone else standing next to them who is lower level and that the box will then contain different things depending on who opens the box then they too feel like everything is fake as well.
Don't look behind the curtain or think about what is happening behind the curtain and things will usually feel more natural. Madmole never said that zombies would be randomly spawned on you. He said they would be spawned ahead of you and if you never intersect with them then they will despawn. He also mentioned that it could be used to spawn other types of encounters with NPCs and eventually bandits.

You talked about how wonderful it was that there would already be zombies around a POI when you got there and that is exactly what the encounter system would do. It would place zombies in your path ahead of the time that you get there. If you deviate and never go there then the zombies will be despawned. What you seem to be describing are wandering hordes which we already have and are different than random encounters as has been explained. If the random encounters are able to be implemented well then the world should feel once again like it is full of zombies without the game having to keep so many zombies alive and accounted for in surrounding chunks that you never see or notice anyway.

He was talking about your encounters being based on die rolls and what you see spawning in front of you is determined by a random script firing or not. It is not going to fix the lack of zombies unless that script is just going to be going off left and right, which I highly doubt will happen. You'll be fighting isolated little pockets like you do indoors in the POIs and not have to watch your back from the other zombies that were normally in a town or biome like before.

As you walk around that script could fire in the most awkward of moments. What if you just settled for an area to build a base and you're all around the area chopping wood, digging clay, bustin stone - and so you know it's clean as a whistle..and then that script fires and a zombie or 'damsel' spawns there. It's 'fake' in that sense. It's not cohesive with immersion. It's not believable.

It was wonderful that there were zombies already around a POI as you triggered the distant spawn - but YOU triggered it. You decided to walk towards the town\poi and engage. It's 'fake' because it is being randomly determined whether or not it even happens at all. Your choice has no influence on the situation.

In the wasteland cities, especially - it was an entire 'area' filled with zombies - you couldn't even tell you 'triggered' them they were all around you and you had to be as cautious and careful as possible to really do well especially with early-game gear. Once they were 'activated' in that area - the quantity was spread-out in a very large a area.

If you use the player character as the spawner like in this proposed encounter system - you're spawning little groups in front of you and it will feel less realistic and immersive. It will likely even start to get somewhat predictable like the sleeper system is. "Oh if I go here to this location, it will either be that biker group, that bandit gang or that damsel" Let's see which one we roll this time!

That's what I mean by 'fake.'

 

[Locusta]

Who said they would be magically appearing before your eyes? What would be so fake feeling about rounding a corner and seeing 30 zombies standing idle in a pack because the game spawned them there out of sight and before you arrived? If you never rounded that corner the zombies would despawn.
Why are people reading what Madmole wrote about a brand new system we've never seen before and substituting it in their mind with Wandering Hordes that appear on top of you? Every example he has given has the game spawn them ahead of the player along the player's current path so that they are already there when the player approaches their location-- you know how they were already there when we approached a POI or a town? He also said that if the player never approaches then the encounter will be canceled and the entities despawned.

Random encounters isn't a new thing in RPGs. They also don't sound equivalent to wandering hordes from what I have read. Please, people, stop looking at "random encounters" and seeing "wandering hordes"

I think your missing the biggest part about having some kind of control of your destiny. If zombies just keep spawning in places you’ve just been for example, how does that make any sense? Being able to effectively clear an area temporarily gives the ups and downs MM is after but also gives the player a sense of accomplishment that the area is somewhat safe for the moment. It’s not random, it’s player controlled from player choices.

Loc

 

[Doctor3D]

Please show me what Madmole wrote that sounded anything remotely like that. From what I've read that horde of zombies would've spawned before you got into view of the Super-Market and not magically in front of your eyes. If Madmole literally said that the encounter system would be like you describe in your scenario then I'll join you in your indignation. But I think you are grossly misinterpreting the concept that Madmole gave us.

How? At what point in this game have zombies not quite literally spawned almost right in front of us? I had no idea that this encounter system was going to cure that...he didn't say it was going to cure it..so I just went on how the game already plays..

 

[Laz Man]

Exactly!
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to leave zombies out of the encounter system. Keep it to random traders, helping people in distress and bandits. Those would be easier to “fake” so to speak than large hordes of zombies magically appearing.

Loc

If the encounter system is implemented well it can be made to feel organic. The tricky part is whether you are willing to accept what the system is doing now that you know how it works under the hood.

People have the same struggles with the zombie AI. Once they figure out "how" it works, the pitch forks come out and now the game is too "gamey".....ironically...