PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

This just means you're technically making players nothing more than just a walking spawner. There is nothing you can do to control the encounters. This is silly to me. You're just walking around and zombies randomly spawn on you without you being able to actually influence the situation at all.
Before, (I'm talking A9,10,11) more specifically - you would try to penetrate the wasteland and it was very hard to do on the first few days. There were dogs and cops everywhere - so to successfully get through and loot - you had to be careful, well-prepared, really good at the game or any combination - but you had control and a decision about whether or not to even take on that risk.

If you walked into a town - you'd see several dozen zombies all around the town preventing clear access to most of the POIs - so you'd try to clear the town by taking on a few at a time and trying not to alert too many at once. Again, a clear and controlled situation where you are making decisions and things are occuring as a result of how you make that choice (or not).

But, with this thing you're proposing? Everything is 'fake' - you're walking around trying to be careful and the game just randomly spawns a group on you without you having any control or not - it wasn't because of the area you were in - it wasn't because of how much noise you were making - it wasn't because you were carrying raw meat on your belt - nope - it's because the game randomly fired a script and started spawning crap in front of you. That's incredibly cheap to me and just makes it all gamey - especially if it does it at really akward times and places like in locations where you literally just removed threats from the area and then you turn around and that script fires and you've got a random horde all over you.

You need to stop over thinking it. This new system could do exactly what alpha 10 did without being stupid spawning zombies where players won't even see them, and having them hang out until they expire, counting against the spawn count and making server cpu trash. WE could spawn them where a player is headed before he gets there instead of in every chunk every 10 meters. Same thing but no waste. Stop over analyzing it, the whole thing is an illusion. Why do you care if a zombie spawns 200 meters behind a wall? All you should be concerned with is seeing zombies where you are going, and having encounters that are interesting at the right time, instead of constant bombardment of stupidity.

We aren't going to cheaply spawn zombies in front of you. Its more like hey you are going to this POI, but you've cleared 3 and havne't died or even had low health for a while, this guy needs something special. Lets spawn a bunch in the yard so when he gets there he has to think about it. Or you are hurt and the game is handing you a rough one, how about a wandering trader who might be coming on the same road you are but headed in the opposite direction. If that bothers you then you have mental issues. Skyrim and Fallout have random encounters and they are pretty sweet, but we could do a lot more with it than they do.

I'm thinking of it as spawn manager 2.0 and wandering horde 2.0. There is nothing better about the legacy spawning in any way. This could simulate that in a much more efficient way, and we could spawn challenging enemies and game stage it, instead of being limited to basic zeds. That late game guy who's getting bored? Lets give him something special. If he doesn't want to deal with it he doesn't have to, he can run. But why not put 10 raiders on the road asking for a toll?

 

[madmole]

The real advantages of punching teeth out and the dismemberment perks during the apoc.

There will be legendary knuckles called "The Dentist's Knuckles" that have a low chance to get silver or gold when punching zombies in the face

 

[Roland]

How? At what point in this game have zombies not quite literally spawned almost right in front of us? I had no idea that this encounter system was going to cure that...he didn't say it was going to cure it..so I just went on how the game already plays..

He did. He said that it was a predictive pathway system. He said that when a supply drop even happens the encounter system might put Bandits at the drop location and then he said that if you don't go to get the drop the bandits will just despawn. Predictive pathway pretty much means that the encounters will be placed ahead of the player where the game predicts they will arrive based on their current pathway. Since it is a prediction it obviously means the spawn will happen before you get there and thus before you can witness it.

Instead of getting upset to the point that you quite uncharacteristically misread posts, why not just list what you hope the encounter system will be like if done properly? Madmole also did say it is at the conceptual phase right now so putting forth good ideas is going to be more useful than hypothetical feedback over something you don't even fully understand because all we've gotten are some vague descriptions.

I see a lot of cool potential with a random encounter system.

And as far as general biome spawns are concerned it is quite easy to increase those if you want. There is even a modlet already created for having 2x, 4x, 8x, or 16x the default spawn numbers though I don't know if it has been updated for A18 yet. But it is easy to change a few numbers in the spawning.xml. Madmole, himself, even suggested doing that small amount of modding right here in the dev diary.

Madmole gave modding advice here in the dev diary for increasing environmental spawning counts. Unbelievable! How that guy continues to post here without getting banned is inconceivable.

 

[madmole]

There are many predictable situations within an unpredictable world..
(Story time)

You're in the zombie apocalypse, and as you're traversing the land with your grumbling belly, and sun-chapped lips, you happen upon a supermarket. It looks almost new. It briefly reminds you of simpler times that you took for granted. You crouch down, and spend the next several minutes cautiously looking all around you. Thankfully, the area all round you is flat with no trees giving you a visible sight-line for miles, not a single zombie, the only thing you ever saw moving was a dirty plastic cup taking a quiet, rolling ride across the asphalt on a gentle breeze. You think to yourself, "Well, it's now or never, the coast is clear outside, at least" You look all around once last time, checking behind you as well and then as you face the super-market again - a horde of zombies is there. "How is this possible!!" you ask out loud. "There's absolutely no way that any zombie could have traversed that parking lot during the two seconds I turned around."

Of course even in a fictional situation such as the zombie apocalypse - a shambling zombie has predictability. You can predict where they can possibly be or can't possibly be based on their movement speed.

The new system wouldn't do that. It would predict movement and spawn that horde heading towards the supermarket or at the supermarket before the distant terrain unloaded, so it would appear as normal spawning does now. I don't know how you could possibly interpret what I said into "cheap death generator", we would never do that. The engine already spawns around you, we'd just do it more intelligently and not waste spawns, and delete them quicker if they weren't interacted with, so they aren't wasting cpu.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Probably my fault. I brought up the buried supplies and challenges where you can clearly see zombies pop in out of thin air.

Not saying encounters will do this too, but going by with what we have and what we know, it’s kinda implied.

 

[madmole]

You could say the same about every process when looking under the hood. Look at leveled probabilities of loot. Someone unaware of how the game decides what's in a loot box will think it is natural when they can find better stuff than they did once their level, perks, and gamestage work together to increase those probabilities for rarer loot. But if they stop and think about the idea that if they open a box vs someone else standing next to them who is lower level and that the box will then contain different things depending on who opens the box then they too feel like everything is fake as well.
Don't look behind the curtain or think about what is happening behind the curtain and things will usually feel more natural. Madmole never said that zombies would be randomly spawned on you. He said they would be spawned ahead of you and if you never intersect with them then they will despawn. He also mentioned that it could be used to spawn other types of encounters with NPCs and eventually bandits.

You talked about how wonderful it was that there would already be zombies around a POI when you got there and that is exactly what the encounter system would do. It would place zombies in your path ahead of the time that you get there. If you deviate and never go there then the zombies will be despawned. What you seem to be describing are wandering hordes which we already have and are different than random encounters as has been explained. If the random encounters are able to be implemented well then the world should feel once again like it is full of zombies without the game having to keep so many zombies alive and accounted for in surrounding chunks that you never see or notice anyway.

Thanks Roland, I'm glad you understand it properly.

 

[Doctor3D]

Ok, I did misunderstand this system somewhat. From this new understanding, it's going to put them there during certain moments and only during those certain moments like during a quest or as you said when a supply drop occurs. I mean I don't see how that is a solution to a lack of zombies? Why is that even being touted as a way to fix the lack of zeds, then? When you're just roaming around in a city taking it all apart, that's when there's a distinct lack of zombies - I could have sworn that the 'encounter system' was brought up as a way to mitigate that. I don't see how? But, maybe you can see how I could misunderstand and think it was going to be used in far more cases than just quests and triggered things like that. In any case, that's still going to be predictable like the sleepers are behind the cabinets and the world is still going to be vacant....I don't get the cheer-leading behind it..I want too! But, I don't see it..

Anyway, I apologize that I misrepresented some facts in my earlier posts. It wasn't intentional.

 

[madmole]

He was talking about your encounters being based on die rolls and what you see spawning in front of you is determined by a random script firing or not. It is not going to fix the lack of zombies unless that script is just going to be going off left and right, which I highly doubt will happen. You'll be fighting isolated little pockets like you do indoors in the POIs and not have to watch your back from the other zombies that were normally in a town or biome like before.
As you walk around that script could fire in the most awkward of moments. What if you just settled for an area to build a base and you're all around the area chopping wood, digging clay, bustin stone - and so you know it's clean as a whistle..and then that script fires and a zombie or 'damsel' spawns there. It's 'fake' in that sense. It's not cohesive with immersion. It's not believable.

It was wonderful that there were zombies already around a POI as you triggered the distant spawn - but YOU triggered it. You decided to walk towards the town\poi and engage. It's 'fake' because it is being randomly determined whether or not it even happens at all. Your choice has no influence on the situation.

In the wasteland cities, especially - it was an entire 'area' filled with zombies - you couldn't even tell you 'triggered' them they were all around you and you had to be as cautious and careful as possible to really do well especially with early-game gear. Once they were 'activated' in that area - the quantity was spread-out in a very large a area.

If you use the player character as the spawner like in this proposed encounter system - you're spawning little groups in front of you and it will feel less realistic and immersive. It will likely even start to get somewhat predictable like the sleeper system is. "Oh if I go here to this location, it will either be that biker group, that bandit gang or that damsel" Let's see which one we roll this time!

That's what I mean by 'fake.'

See my previous posts, we're not going to spawn people in front of you we're predicting where you might go and if you need some action we give it to you. Big difference.

Its no more fake than the zombies that spawn sleeping when you go inside. That building is empty until you go in. Its no more fake than the horde that comes to your base every blood moon. We'd spawn stuff like we always spawn stuff. How is it more fake? Do you think if you go to the lake and yell and scream at the campers until they leave, that you'll be left alone the rest of the weekend? No, 20 more campers will show up. So your argument fails. Most players would prefer more action, and wandering hordes are lame all the time, so the encounter system can at least keep the game more interesting and handle spawning in a more responsible way and despawn them if noone encounters them. Or maybe they walk somewhere else, I'm done pulling back the curtain because all people do is knee jerk about stuff they don't properly understand.

 

[madmole]

I think your missing the biggest part about having some kind of control of your destiny. If zombies just keep spawning in places you’ve just been for example, how does that make any sense? Being able to effectively clear an area temporarily gives the ups and downs MM is after but also gives the player a sense of accomplishment that the area is somewhat safe for the moment. It’s not random, it’s player controlled from player choices.

Loc

The system would be better than that. Random encounters, not random intervals. We would measure the players activity, the chunk heat, whatever metrics we decide are immersive and make sense, then decide to roll an encounter. It could be a herd of deer passing by, but if you negative Nancies had your way we'd be all playing alpha 10 with 20 fps and horrible graphics.

 

[madmole]

How? At what point in this game have zombies not quite literally spawned almost right in front of us? I had no idea that this encounter system was going to cure that...he didn't say it was going to cure it..so I just went on how the game already plays..

You see stuff spawn in every game, or fade in etc... its normal. We aren't spawning stuff 10' in front of you its like 90 meters and its a tiny dot on the screen when it comes in.

 

[Laz Man]

See my previous posts, we're not going to spawn people in front of you we're predicting where you might go and if you need some action we give it to you. Big difference.
Its no more fake than the zombies that spawn sleeping when you go inside. That building is empty until you go in. Its no more fake than the horde that comes to your base every blood moon. We'd spawn stuff like we always spawn stuff. How is it more fake? Do you think if you go to the lake and yell and scream at the campers until they leave, that you'll be left alone the rest of the weekend? No, 20 more campers will show up. So your argument fails. Most players would prefer more action, and wandering hordes are lame all the time, so the encounter system can at least keep the game more interesting and handle spawning in a more responsible way and despawn them if noone encounters them. Or maybe they walk somewhere else, I'm done pulling back the curtain because all people do is knee jerk about stuff they don't properly understand.

I appreciate the curtain peeks MM, go take out some of the tension out on some zeds.

 

[madmole]

Probably my fault. I brought up the buried supplies and challenges where you can clearly see zombies pop in out of thin air.Not saying encounters will do this too, but going by with what we have and what we know, it’s kinda implied.

That one is horribly managed and there are tickets to improve it.

 

[Roland]

Ok, I did misunderstand this system somewhat. From this new understanding, it's going to put them there during certain moments and only during those certain moments like during a quest or as you said when a supply drop occurs. I mean I don't see how that is a solution to a lack of zombies? Why is that even being touted as a way to fix the lack of zeds, then? When you're just roaming around in a city taking it all apart, that's when there's a distinct lack of zombies - I could have sworn that the 'encounter system' was brought up as a way to mitigate that. I don't see how? But, maybe you can see how I could misunderstand and think it was going to be used in far more cases than just quests and triggered things like that. In any case, that's still going to be predictable like the sleepers are behind the cabinets and the world is still going to be vacant....I don't get the cheer-leading behind it..I want too! But, I don't see it..
Anyway, I apologize that I misrepresented some facts in my earlier posts. It wasn't intentional.

It is going to happen more often than for triggered events like a quest or a supply drop. It will happen randomly. But it will always happen out of sight and be in place before you get to the location where it has predicted you will arrive. It shouldn't be too hard to suspend disbelief as long as you aren't obsessing about being a moving spawn trigger.

 

[Doctor3D]

See my previous posts, we're not going to spawn people in front of you we're predicting where you might go and if you need some action we give it to you. Big difference.
Its no more fake than the zombies that spawn sleeping when you go inside. That building is empty until you go in. Its no more fake than the horde that comes to your base every blood moon. We'd spawn stuff like we always spawn stuff. How is it more fake? Do you think if you go to the lake and yell and scream at the campers until they leave, that you'll be left alone the rest of the weekend? No, 20 more campers will show up. So your argument fails. Most players would prefer more action, and wandering hordes are lame all the time, so the encounter system can at least keep the game more interesting and handle spawning in a more responsible way and despawn them if noone encounters them. Or maybe they walk somewhere else, I'm done pulling back the curtain because all people do is knee jerk about stuff they don't properly understand.

I didn't mean 'fake' in that way. It's all fake, of course - just like cinema. It's the immersion.You can watch a film and get immersed in it and for awhile you are tricked into being entertained as if it's really happening. Other times, the movie is so predictable, you already know what's about to happen and you're just like 'oh, brother'..

I was talking about how it can be immersion breaking and I tried to explain the difference between how the old spawn system and this new spawn system was different in that regard.

The houses with the sleepers in the closets are the same way to me. You know and expect them to be there. It feels 'fake' and forced - and I just think that the encounter system would likely be similar and after a while you can just almost predict that something will happen each time here and there.

Where as before in the spawn system that you don't like - they were all around you in the wasteland especially - it was completely unpredictable - you'd get immersed in the tension - anything could happen - could they be behind you? Could there be a bunch of dogs over that hill? Could there be some cops on the other side of that building? It was different and unpredictable and tense - and while you're fighting one zed another could be coming right up from behind you.

The spawn system in the POIs especially are more linear...you clear areas at a time and most of the time so long as you know what you're doing - all of the zombies are ahead of you and you've got a pretty good idea of where most of them are going to be in each room. It's like when hollywood overdoes the CGI and you can see threw it and it throws you out of the movie..

 

[madmole]

Ok, I did misunderstand this system somewhat. From this new understanding, it's going to put them there during certain moments and only during those certain moments like during a quest or as you said when a supply drop occurs. I mean I don't see how that is a solution to a lack of zombies? Why is that even being touted as a way to fix the lack of zeds, then? When you're just roaming around in a city taking it all apart, that's when there's a distinct lack of zombies - I could have sworn that the 'encounter system' was brought up as a way to mitigate that. I don't see how? But, maybe you can see how I could misunderstand and think it was going to be used in far more cases than just quests and triggered things like that. In any case, that's still going to be predictable like the sleepers are behind the cabinets and the world is still going to be vacant....I don't get the cheer-leading behind it..I want too! But, I don't see it..
Anyway, I apologize that I misrepresented some facts in my earlier posts. It wasn't intentional.

Hey we have an incoming visitor! Zombies, get up, get in position we have visitors.... We can spawn whatever we want whenever we want. Maybe we'll spawn a horde traveling through the town, or a settler will be getting his house broken into. You can help him or not help him. Will we mindlessly fill the town with 5000 zeds? No. But if I see stuff going on around me I'm interested and immersed at that moment. That should be a big improvement over what we have now. Maybe bandits drive by on motorcycles and hear you shooting and decide to see what is going on. I'm surprised you don't see the potential here.

I think we could still spawn more guys in towns with this system or make it feel more interesting in more creative ways. But we're not filling the entire world with zombies again like old days unless we can improve the performance some. The wasteland is highly populated at night if you want some nostalgia you can go there.

 

[Roland]

What would be cool is giving server admin control over the encounter system so they can act as dungeon masters...

 

[JaxTeller718]

Random encounters isn't a new thing in RPGs. They also don't sound equivalent to wandering hordes from what I have read. Please, people, stop looking at "random encounters" and seeing "wandering hordes"

Please show me what Madmole wrote that sounded anything remotely like that. From what I've read that horde of zombies would've spawned before you got into view of the Super-Market and not magically in front of your eyes. If Madmole literally said that the encounter system would be like you describe in your scenario then I'll join you in your indignation. But I think you are grossly misinterpreting the concept that Madmole gave us.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=1015234&viewfull=1#post1015234

 

[Gareee]

Can u currently get a concrete mixer schematic from a concrete mixer?
Would it be worth adding a crucible schematic to the broken forge loot list? Instead of 20 percent chance for a forge schematic, maybe 10 percent forge schematic and 10 percent crucible??

10 would be WAY too high...its supposed to harder to get. Maybe 5% or less. That reminds me...I haven't seen any oh the old forge housesv in a18 at all. Is it broken, or gone?

 

[madmole]

I didn't mean 'fake' in that way. It's all fake, of course - just like cinema. It's the immersion.You can watch a film and get immersed in it and for awhile you are tricked into being entertained as if it's really happening. Other times, the movie is so predictable, you already know what's about to happen and you're just like 'oh, brother'..
I was talking about how it can be immersion breaking and I tried to explain the difference between how the old spawn system and this new spawn system was different in that regard.

The houses with the sleepers in the closets are the same way to me. You know and expect them to be there. It feels 'fake' and forced - and I just think that the encounter system would likely be similar and after a while you can just almost predict that something will happen each time here and there.

Where as before in the spawn system that you don't like - they were all around you in the wasteland especially - it was completely unpredictable - you'd get immersed in the tension - anything could happen - could they be behind you? Could there be a bunch of dogs over that hill? Could there be some cops on the other side of that building? It was different and unpredictable and tense - and while you're fighting one zed another could be coming right up from behind you.

The spawn system in the POIs especially are more linear...you clear areas at a time and most of the time so long as you know what you're doing - all of the zombies are ahead of you and you've got a pretty good idea of where most of them are going to be in each room. It's like when hollywood overdoes the CGI and you can see threw it and it throws you out of the movie..

I think we can handle it in a way that feels natural, and reproduce what you liked about Alpha 10 without the cpu and lag issues in a more elegant way. There is a huge wasteland, but all we are concerned with is what you see right now. If you are shooting stuff, making noise, and realistically EVEN IF YOU NUKED the entire thing an hour ago, zombies from miles way (off screen) could be attracted and come investigate. That wouldn't be immersion breaking, but not possible with the old setup, but certainly doable with what we're planning. The key is a lot of events, and a wide range of random intervals and criteria we collect. I'm hoping to write 50+ events and have them game staged. We can't have a group of high level bandits in a helicopter spawn in the forest to gun down the roaming day 1 survivor, but we could if a level 100 guy was blowing up a bandit camp... they called in the backup. I can't think of a single negative to it if we do it right.

 

[madmole]

What would be cool is giving server admin control over the encounter system so they can act as dungeon masters...

You mean twitch viewers. We're doing twitch integration.